Best American Made Lugged Steel Frame?



T

Tim McNamara

Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> > alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!

>>
>> Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
>> frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
>> human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the
>> defendnt and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.
>>
>> For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
>> Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
>> Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
>> the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
>> braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or
>> substitute your favorite frame builders.

>
> there's we we disagree. i think goodrich's human element differs
> from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is different from
> bert's.


Exactly my point. Lawyering involves many people in each outcome,
custom frame building involves (usually) only one. Therefore
comparing the human touch in lawyering with the human touch in frame
building really isn't possible.

> i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...), "a
> thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood". it's
> not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
> person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
> others do


Yup. The question, as yet unaswered and perhaps unanswerable is
exactly what the differences are that make the differences in the
ride. Is it the geometry- BB drop, front and rear centers, steering
geometry, position, and other "macroscopic" differences? I'd have no
argument with that; my hunch is that if I went to each of the builders
I mentioned and got measured for a bike for riding brevets, I'd
imagine every one would build a bike I'd be very happy with- and every
one would build a bike that is macroscopically different from the
others.

Or is it microscopic differences, ones that can't be identified with a
tape measure? The sequence of the joints, the exactitude of the
miters, the filing and thinning of the lugs, which side of the joint
is heated first, whether brass or silver is used, etc. Are these the
things that account for the difference in ride? I personally can't
see how.

My own answer to the questions- as best I can- is going to be to build
my own frame. We'll see if it turns out well or if it rides like a
wheelbarrow harnessed to a dyspeptic donkey. In any event, Richard,
I appreciate your perspective on the issue and thanks for sharing it.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
tullio-<< Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
those generic, cookie cutter bikes. >><BR><BR>

Nope, just if you don't care about such things, be happy with any old frameset
is all.
If you don't really care how the suit looks, go to Target for the suit. if you
care, go to Evan the tailor.

I'm surprized at you Todd. I am sure you have had 'special' rides and 'blah'
rides.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
T

Todd Kuzma

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> tullio-<< Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
> magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
> ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
> those generic, cookie cutter bikes. >><BR><BR>
>
> Nope, just if you don't care about such things, be happy with any old frameset
> is all.
> If you don't really care how the suit looks, go to Target for the suit. if you
> care, go to Evan the tailor.
>
> I'm surprized at you Todd. I am sure you have had 'special' rides and 'blah'
> rides.


There is a difference between believing that a well-crafted
frame is more durable, beautiful, and plain cool than
believing that it rides better. Given the same geometry,
tubing, and alignment, frames built by different builders
should ride the same.

Yes, I've had some "special" rides. Some of those were on
Bianchi Reparto Corse frames that were of such poor quality
that it was embarassing. Poor brazing, lug edges, frame
prep, paint, chrome, etc. It was all bad but rode well.
Maybe it was the celeste!

As far as your suit analogy goes, if Evan and Target use the
same materials and same design, they will look the same.
Evan's suit will likely have better stitching and last
longer. If you are talking about a "tailored" suit, then we
are talking about custom frames that are designed to fit a
particular individual. Different story.

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> Well, I am learning to braze and to build frames thanks to the
>> patience of a friend who is a frame builder, so I hope to have at
>> least some understanding of this aspect someday. Although since I
>> don't plan to quit my day job, I doubt I'll build enough frames to
>> become as proficient as someone like yourself.

>
> i hope you'll note your experiences online for others to read. i
> don't think i began to fully understand the complete nature of these
> tasks until nearly 20 years into the gig. understanding
> geometry. fitting people. developing construction methods and
> sequences that yield desired results. refining metalworking skills.
> these tasks are rather simple in and of themselves, but combining
> these, and other important traits too, to build frames borders on
> alchemy and i don't think it's that evident until you're on the
> "other side" of the learning curve.


It'll be a long time before I can claim any kind of proficiency. At
this point I'm still just learning to handle a torch and do basic
brazing.

> you're on the frame forum if i'm not mistaken - i hope you'll avail
> youself of the resources there when you start your building.


I've not subscribed to the frame builder's forum. You're probably
recognizing my name from the iBOB list. However, the frame builder's
list is a superb resource that I'll be checking into once I've got a
handle on rudimentary brazing.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
TODD-<< Given the same geometry,
tubing, and alignment, frames built by different builders
should ride the same. >><BR><BR>

'Should' is a big word. I have had framesets identical in every respect except
the builder. Some I liked, some i didn't.



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
B

Benjamin Lewis

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> TODD-<< Given the same geometry,
> tubing, and alignment, frames built by different builders
> should ride the same. >><BR><BR>
>
> 'Should' is a big word. I have had framesets identical in every respect
> except the builder. Some I liked, some i didn't.


There are many valid reasons to like frames besides "ride quality". In
fact, there are clearly variables which can affect your perception of ride
quality even when there's no relevant physical difference, such as paint
colour.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
 
D

DRS

Guest
"Benjamin Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[...]

> There are many valid reasons to like frames besides "ride quality".
> In fact, there are clearly variables which can affect your perception
> of ride quality even when there's no relevant physical difference,
> such as paint colour.


That's true. We all know red bikes go faster.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
 
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 07:42:13 +1000, "DRS"
<[email protected]move.this.ihug.com.au> wrote:

>"Benjamin Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>[...]
>
>> There are many valid reasons to like frames besides "ride quality".
>> In fact, there are clearly variables which can affect your perception
>> of ride quality even when there's no relevant physical difference,
>> such as paint colour.

>
>That's true. We all know red bikes go faster.


Dear DRS,

Names help, too.

The Fury RoadMaster gained almost a full mile per hour when
it changed its name from the Marion Morrison Memorial Model,
although some attribute the improvement to the weight
reduction (less paint was needed to spell the briefer name
out on a shorter frame tube).

J. Wayne
 
L

Lars Lehtonen

Guest
According to Joe <[email protected]>:
>I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
>(preferably with 853 steel).


Talk to Circle A.

<http://www.circleacycles.com/>

---
Lars Lehtonen