Best American Made Lugged Steel Frame?

[Paul Southworth]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Send one frame drawing to five frame builders, have them built and
>painted without decals, equip the frames identically, and then see if
>people can tell them apart in set of blind tests.

Whatever those people tell me, I can still conclude nothing about
whether I'd like any of the five.

--Paul

 

[Ted Bennett]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote:

> you want to know the truth?
> i don't know the answer to some of the questions you
> ask here. from what i know, you're a retailer - and i
> handle these materials daily and make them into frames.
> my intuition, my "gut" feeling, based on 30 years (yuck i
> hate saying stuff like this...) is that there is a difference.
> perhaps you're right: maybe the difference is in the longevity
> of the item rather than how it feels, but as a maker it is
> difficult for me to seperate all the details from each other.
> i believe there's a reason that the good stuff is sought after
> and also lasts longer than the mediocre stuff. i won't address
> the motivations of the other guys listed in this hypothetical,
> but - for me, if i believed the frames would all be the same
> there'd be no reason to come in to work. all this stuff is
> hand-made, warts and all. that hand-made process somehow
> transforms raw material into a finished product. it's not as
> simple as summoning up a geometry and executing it with
> some pipe. as i wrote previously, the human element is part
> of the equation - and that's no different than the test control
> also suggested earlier in which humans would try to discern
> the difference some here insist don't exist.
> e-RICHIE



Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

 

[Dan Daniel]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:28:19 GMT, Ted Bennett
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> you want to know the truth?
>> i don't know the answer to some of the questions you
>> ask here. from what i know, you're a retailer - and i
>> handle these materials daily and make them into frames.
>> my intuition, my "gut" feeling, based on 30 years (yuck i
>> hate saying stuff like this...) is that there is a difference.
>> perhaps you're right: maybe the difference is in the longevity
>> of the item rather than how it feels, but as a maker it is
>> difficult for me to seperate all the details from each other.
>> i believe there's a reason that the good stuff is sought after
>> and also lasts longer than the mediocre stuff. i won't address
>> the motivations of the other guys listed in this hypothetical,
>> but - for me, if i believed the frames would all be the same
>> there'd be no reason to come in to work. all this stuff is
>> hand-made, warts and all. that hand-made process somehow
>> transforms raw material into a finished product. it's not as
>> simple as summoning up a geometry and executing it with
>> some pipe. as i wrote previously, the human element is part
>> of the equation - and that's no different than the test control
>> also suggested earlier in which humans would try to discern
>> the difference some here insist don't exist.
>> e-RICHIE
>
>
>
>Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
>fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
>unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.

Huh? He has articulated a good part of what he thinks makes a good
bike in this thread. You obviously disagree with his reasons, but I
don't think that it is accurate on your part to equate your
disagreement with his being inarticulate.

 

[Richard Sachs]

<[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
> unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.
> Ted Bennett
> Portland OR


i'm sorry to disappoint you, ted.
i thought this was about why like-designed frames would
not ride similarly. when did the question of "what makes
a good bike" come up?
e-RICHIE

 

[Tom Nakashima]

"Ted Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > you want to know the truth?
> > i don't know the answer to some of the questions you
> > ask here. from what i know, you're a retailer - and i
> > handle these materials daily and make them into frames.
> > my intuition, my "gut" feeling, based on 30 years (yuck i
> > hate saying stuff like this...) is that there is a difference.
> > perhaps you're right: maybe the difference is in the longevity
> > of the item rather than how it feels, but as a maker it is
> > difficult for me to seperate all the details from each other.
> > i believe there's a reason that the good stuff is sought after
> > and also lasts longer than the mediocre stuff. i won't address
> > the motivations of the other guys listed in this hypothetical,
> > but - for me, if i believed the frames would all be the same
> > there'd be no reason to come in to work. all this stuff is
> > hand-made, warts and all. that hand-made process somehow
> > transforms raw material into a finished product. it's not as
> > simple as summoning up a geometry and executing it with
> > some pipe. as i wrote previously, the human element is part
> > of the equation - and that's no different than the test control
> > also suggested earlier in which humans would try to discern
> > the difference some here insist don't exist.
> > e-RICHIE
>
>
>
> Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
> unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.
>
> --
> Ted Bennett
> Portland OR

Isn't that up for the rider to decide?
-tom

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Todd Kuzma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BCF513FC.1EBCC%[email protected]...
> in article [email protected],
Richard Sachs at
> [email protected] wrote on 6/15/04 1:34 PM:
>
> > i believe the sequence of assembly, the heating cycles,
> > the hand-eye coordination - and a host of other
"intangibles" -
> > all serve to affect the final product.
> > to be agreeable, i'd suggest all like-designed 'trauts ride
> > similarly, or tom's frames, or mine. but will all of ours
> > ride alike - even if we parrot a scripted design? i doubt it.
>
> e-Richie,
>
> It's conceivable that the things listed above would affect
durability of the
> frame or even its performance in a collision. However, how
would they
> affect ride quality? It seems from your other responses that
you don't want
> to enter the debate beyond what you've already stated, but you
are making a
> pretty big claim here.
>
> I'd argue that if you, Eisentraut, and Ritchey each built a
frame with the
> same geometry and tubing that experienced riders would notice
absolutely no
> difference in ride quality. I'd argue that a frame with the
same spec built
> by an apprentice at Waterford would ride the same as well. How
could it
> not?
>
> How does the sequence of assembly or heating cycles affect ride
quality?
> How does the brazing of a joint affect handling?

I struggled with this one, too. Perhaps air hardening or
annealing would have an effect, but it probably would be
imperceivable. I would also assume that all of the builders know
how to not cook a frame. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Ted Bennett]

"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote:

> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
> > fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
> > unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.
> > Ted Bennett
> > Portland OR
>
>
> i'm sorry to disappoint you, ted.
> i thought this was about why like-designed frames would
> not ride similarly. when did the question of "what makes
> a good bike" come up?
> e-RICHIE


It didn't come up, Richie. Sorry to confuse the issue.

What I was reacting to was your implication that fabrication details
like the order of joints has some bearing on how a bike rides. I just
don't see how it could influence the ride or the handling. If someone
builds a bike with the same tubing and geometry as one you built, and
that person does a good job with the mitering and the brazing/welding,
then it's the same bike. Except for the paint and the cachet of the
name of the builder.

Ted

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

 

[Steven L. Sheffield]

Dave Stallard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
> frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
> lugs are getting harder to find.


Purveyors of lugs online:

Pacenti Cycle Designs - http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html
Richard Sachs Cycles - http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachstoys.html

 

[Richard Sachs]

i disagree.
two people can use the same bread recipe,
use the same camera to take a picture, use
the same oil paint and brushes to create a
landscape - etcetera.
the human element is part of the equation.
how can it not be?
e-RICHIE




"Ted Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
> > > fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
> > > unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.
> > > Ted Bennett
> > > Portland OR
> >
> >
> > i'm sorry to disappoint you, ted.
> > i thought this was about why like-designed frames would
> > not ride similarly. when did the question of "what makes
> > a good bike" come up?
> > e-RICHIE
>
>
> It didn't come up, Richie. Sorry to confuse the issue.
>
> What I was reacting to was your implication that fabrication details
> like the order of joints has some bearing on how a bike rides. I just
> don't see how it could influence the ride or the handling. If someone
> builds a bike with the same tubing and geometry as one you built, and
> that person does a good job with the mitering and the brazing/welding,
> then it's the same bike. Except for the paint and the cachet of the
> name of the builder.
>
> Ted
>
> --
> Ted Bennett
> Portland OR

 

[Ted Bennett]

> i disagree.
> two people can use the same bread recipe,
> use the same camera to take a picture, use
> the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> landscape - etcetera.
> the human element is part of the equation.
> how can it not be?
> e-RICHIE


Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same materials
and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture if the same
camera, film, location and focus are used.

Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control the
many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That is not
really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73 degree
angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made or it is
not.

I'm sure you don't mean to imply with your landscape painting example
that paint makes any difference at all in how a bike steers. Paint on a
bike has a effect on the longevity of a bike and on the owner's
satisfaction with it, as well as its perceived value.

I'd like to be clear about my opinions of Richard Sachs' bikes. They
are at the pinnacle of fine bicycles, because of good design and skilled
construction. But as long as the same design, materials and proper
methods are used, they won't ride any better just because Richard Sachs
has built it.

Of course the human element matters. I can't produce a bike like a
Sachs.

Ted

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

 

[Richard Sachs]

ted
the paint/landscape example was not linked to paint on a bicycle.
your kind words re my frames are duly noted and i thank you for them.

seperately,
although it's not part of the original question posted, if all like-designed
frames ride identically, what else is there? most frames last forever. most
frames satisfy the consumer needs of the clients who buy them. how could
there be a pecking order within the levels of quality that purportedly exist
among the "really fine" bicycles? i'm not certain i can add much of a reply
to that question except to note my earlier comments wrt the human element
in the assembly process.
e-RICHIE







"Ted Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > i disagree.
> > two people can use the same bread recipe,
> > use the same camera to take a picture, use
> > the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> > landscape - etcetera.
> > the human element is part of the equation.
> > how can it not be?
> > e-RICHIE
>
>
> Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same materials
> and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture if the same
> camera, film, location and focus are used.
>
> Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control the
> many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That is not
> really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73 degree
> angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made or it is
> not.
>
> I'm sure you don't mean to imply with your landscape painting example
> that paint makes any difference at all in how a bike steers. Paint on a
> bike has a effect on the longevity of a bike and on the owner's
> satisfaction with it, as well as its perceived value.
>
> I'd like to be clear about my opinions of Richard Sachs' bikes. They
> are at the pinnacle of fine bicycles, because of good design and skilled
> construction. But as long as the same design, materials and proper
> methods are used, they won't ride any better just because Richard Sachs
> has built it.
>
> Of course the human element matters. I can't produce a bike like a
> Sachs.
>
> Ted
>
> --
> Ted Bennett
> Portland OR

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news%[email protected]...
> ted
> the paint/landscape example was not linked to paint on a
bicycle.
> your kind words re my frames are duly noted and i thank you for
them.
>
> seperately,
> although it's not part of the original question posted, if all
like-designed
> frames ride identically, what else is there? most frames last
forever. most
> frames satisfy the consumer needs of the clients who buy them.
how could
> there be a pecking order within the levels of quality that
purportedly exist
> among the "really fine" bicycles? i'm not certain i can add
much of a reply
> to that question except to note my earlier comments wrt the
human element
> in the assembly process.
> e-RICHIE

You get to be at the top of the pecking order because your frames
are aesthetically pleasing; they are straight, have good
geometry, carefully selected frame components and are fabricated
in such a way that they will not fail prematurely. I do not
agree with you that most steel frames last forever (having broken
three custom frames) and would pay a premium for a builder who
pays careful attention to construction. But with that said, I
have ridden essentially the same bike built by two different
people (a Masi and a Masi knock-off built for me by a local
builder), and I could not tell the difference.

I worked around a frame shop in the '70s and saw an incredible
amount of **** that came in for paint -- including frames with
brass filled file dings, incomplete brazing of joints, crooked
frames, etc. And these were well known and expensive brands,
some by custom builders in the Bay Area. With the new,
thin-walled steel tubes, craftsmanship is even more important. I
do not think people appreciate how much can be hidden by paint
and where the real value is in buying a bicycle from a respected
builder. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Richard Sachs]

so...
it <is> the human element.
e-RICHIE




"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news%[email protected]...
> > ted
> > the paint/landscape example was not linked to paint on a
> bicycle.
> > your kind words re my frames are duly noted and i thank you for
> them.
> >
> > seperately,
> > although it's not part of the original question posted, if all
> like-designed
> > frames ride identically, what else is there? most frames last
> forever. most
> > frames satisfy the consumer needs of the clients who buy them.
> how could
> > there be a pecking order within the levels of quality that
> purportedly exist
> > among the "really fine" bicycles? i'm not certain i can add
> much of a reply
> > to that question except to note my earlier comments wrt the
> human element
> > in the assembly process.
> > e-RICHIE
>
> You get to be at the top of the pecking order because your frames
> are aesthetically pleasing; they are straight, have good
> geometry, carefully selected frame components and are fabricated
> in such a way that they will not fail prematurely. I do not
> agree with you that most steel frames last forever (having broken
> three custom frames) and would pay a premium for a builder who
> pays careful attention to construction. But with that said, I
> have ridden essentially the same bike built by two different
> people (a Masi and a Masi knock-off built for me by a local
> builder), and I could not tell the difference.
>
> I worked around a frame shop in the '70s and saw an incredible
> amount of **** that came in for paint -- including frames with
> brass filled file dings, incomplete brazing of joints, crooked
> frames, etc. And these were well known and expensive brands,
> some by custom builders in the Bay Area. With the new,
> thin-walled steel tubes, craftsmanship is even more important. I
> do not think people appreciate how much can be hidden by paint
> and where the real value is in buying a bicycle from a respected
> builder. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>

 

[Tom Nakashima]

"Ted Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > i disagree.
> > two people can use the same bread recipe,
> > use the same camera to take a picture, use
> > the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> > landscape - etcetera.
> > the human element is part of the equation.
> > how can it not be?
> > e-RICHIE
>
>
> Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same materials
> and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture if the same
> camera, film, location and focus are used.
>
> --
> Ted Bennett
> Portland OR

Not always Ted,
I spoke with a Chef at a famous Italian restaurant. He gave the recipe (a
pasta marinade) to my friend who's also a great cook. She asked; "usually a
Chef won't give out their personal recipe?" He said, it doesn't matter,
because it won't taste the same. Depends how you mix it, how you simmer it,
for how long, and what temperature. The same could apply to frame
building.

Years ago, I read a good article by Dave Moulton, also a master frame
builder. In the article he gave in detail how he makes his frames and why.
How the downtube sets the foundation for alignment and how it's going to
ride. He was very detailed in his description. He also said that he can
make two frames with the same tubing, in the same size, same angles, same
paint, same components, including rims and tires and air pressure, and the
two will ride slightly different.

I have an old 1977 custom Rodriguez made of Reynolds 531 and it rides very
well, or maybe after all these yeas I've gotten just used to it, and nothing
in the world will ride better (physiological). I know the frame is getting
old and I've always wanted to ride a Richard Sachs frame, because of his
reputation for paying attention to detail. His frames are expensive but I
believe worth every penny, the only thing that's holding me back is the 1%
chance that it might not ride as good as the Rodriguez.
That's why I said in and early post; " it's up to the rider to decide how it
rides." Another words, All Richard Sachs can do as other master frame
builders, is make the frame to the best of his knowledge, 30+ years of
experience and frame building skills, but it's up to me to decide how it
rides.

Off the bike subject:
Not sure if this is a good analogy, but I used to play a lot of 9-ball
(billiards). On the break, with the same pool cue, same rack (position of
the balls 1-9), same position on the cue ball, same location on contact with
the same speed of the cue stick, the balls never end up in the same
place...not even close.
-tom

 

[Steven L. Sheffield]

Dave Stallard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...


> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
> frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
> lugs are getting harder to find.


Lugs available for purchase from Pacenti Cycle Designs:

http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html

and from Richard Sachs Cycles:

http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachstoys.html

 

[Tim McNamara]

"Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:

> two people can use the same bread recipe, use the same camera to
> take a picture, use the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> landscape - etcetera. the human element is part of the equation.
> how can it not be?

Certainly in terms of aesthetics this is the case. I suspect that if
we took 20 different frames from 10 different builders and sandblasted
them clean, you'd still be able to pick out yours with confidence.
Someone familiar with your work might be able to do the same, if
they're used to seeing your frames before painting. There are going
to be details that only you do; less evident to this type examination,
your approach to fitting is probably different (to a degree at least)
than what other custom builders do. IMHO it's those things that make
your customers want a Richard Sachs- just as there were specifics
about Alex Singer bikes that made some people want those. It's those
things, which are really meotional in nature, that give custom bikes
their value.

The questions about whether "microscopic" details- pinning the joints,
the order of joining, the heating sequence of each joint, etc- make a
perceptible difference in the ride is unresolved. But you did
suggest, in an earlier post, that they did. I tend to doubt it, but
then I haven't had a chance to compare different frames in this way
and probably never will- I can't afford all those custom frames! (But
I can dream, can't I?) I can tell some differences in feel between
frames with differing geometries (my Ritchey Road Classic and my
Rivendell All-Rounder and my old Windsor Profesional track bike all
ride noticeably differently, for example), because those differences
are fairly coarse-grained; are fine-grained differences such as
brazing order or heating sequence going to be registerable to human
sensory apparati? I'm interested in that question, probbaly because
I'm a psychologist, but don't have the means of testing it. And I
doubt there is grant money available for this sort of thing.

 

[Tim McNamara]

Ted Bennett <[email protected]> writes:

>> i disagree. two people can use the same bread recipe, use the same
>> camera to take a picture, use the same oil paint and brushes to
>> create a landscape - etcetera. the human element is part of the
>> equation. how can it not be?
>
> Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same
> materials and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture
> if the same camera, film, location and focus are used.

Well, no, that's not true in either case. There's still going to be
variability unless you overcontrol the experiment so tightly as to
remove all individual variability and render your subject little more
than wetware robots. Psychological research has been making that same
error for over 100 years, fouling up the results of our research in
many cases (especially perceptual research).

> Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control
> the many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That
> is not really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73
> degree angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made
> or it is not.

Well, that was at the heart of my suggestion to compare whether the
"microscopic" differences between framebuilders have an effect on ride
quality when the "macroscopic" differences are controlled (tubing
lengths and angles).

> I'd like to be clear about my opinions of Richard Sachs' bikes.
> They are at the pinnacle of fine bicycles, because of good design
> and skilled construction. But as long as the same design, materials
> and proper methods are used, they won't ride any better just because
> Richard Sachs has built it.

But dang, that Sachs frame is going to be gorgeous! I could braze one
together to the same specs, and the lack of skills would be painfully
obvious. Would it ride differently- it would certainly be uglier, but
if you closed your eyes and rode, would it feel different? That's the
question. (BTW, I think it would feel different with your eyes open,
looking at Sachs's crisp clean workmanship versus my blobby and
blurred lug shorelines... you'd have a *lot* more confidence in
Richard's work!).

 

[Richard Sachs]

snipped:
" I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't had a chance to compare different
frames in this way and probably never will..."


no disrepect intended, but you're right - you probably never will, and
since you don't handle the raw material, it makes it that much harder to
grasp how the human hand - the human element - comes into play. in all
fairness, i said earlier that i can't quanify it either (this <is> rbtech,
after
all...), but i believe it is part of the equation.
and, sorry - i know i shouldn't ask questions i don't know the answer to -
but
i know we have a lawyer here - why is it that there are good ones and not
so good ones when the law is the law? i'm not trying to shift gears here,
but
only to suggest that law - much like some frame building assembly
processes -
is open to interpretation yet verdicts often depend on the skill of the
lawyer.
apologies in advance if that analogy is just so bad!!!
e-RICHIE






"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Richard Sachs" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > two people can use the same bread recipe, use the same camera to
> > take a picture, use the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> > landscape - etcetera. the human element is part of the equation.
> > how can it not be?
>
> Certainly in terms of aesthetics this is the case. I suspect that if
> we took 20 different frames from 10 different builders and sandblasted
> them clean, you'd still be able to pick out yours with confidence.
> Someone familiar with your work might be able to do the same, if
> they're used to seeing your frames before painting. There are going
> to be details that only you do; less evident to this type examination,
> your approach to fitting is probably different (to a degree at least)
> than what other custom builders do. IMHO it's those things that make
> your customers want a Richard Sachs- just as there were specifics
> about Alex Singer bikes that made some people want those. It's those
> things, which are really meotional in nature, that give custom bikes
> their value.
>
> The questions about whether "microscopic" details- pinning the joints,
> the order of joining, the heating sequence of each joint, etc- make a
> perceptible difference in the ride is unresolved. But you did
> suggest, in an earlier post, that they did. I tend to doubt it, but
> then I haven't had a chance to compare different frames in this way
> and probably never will- I can't afford all those custom frames! (But
> I can dream, can't I?) I can tell some differences in feel between
> frames with differing geometries (my Ritchey Road Classic and my
> Rivendell All-Rounder and my old Windsor Profesional track bike all
> ride noticeably differently, for example), because those differences
> are fairly coarse-grained; are fine-grained differences such as
> brazing order or heating sequence going to be registerable to human
> sensory apparati? I'm interested in that question, probbaly because
> I'm a psychologist, but don't have the means of testing it. And I
> doubt there is grant money available for this sort of thing.

 

[Tim McNamara]

[email protected] (Steven L. Sheffield) writes:

> Dave Stallard <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
>> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of
>> boutique frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's
>> cheaper, and lugs are getting harder to find.

Steel is on its way out, at least for the time being and at least as
far as mass-produced bikes are concerned, because aluminum is cheap,
easy to work, fits the style of the times better, and people are under
the illusion that a pound of aluminum weighs less than a pound of
steel.

Of course, all this stuff is cyclical. 60 years ago the French were
making sub-20 pound bikes with threadless stems, full fenders,
labyrinth sealed bearing hubs and bottom brackets, lights and racks
out of aluminum, thin walled steel, etc. There was a flourishing
custom bike industry all around France.

> Purveyors of lugs online:
>
> Pacenti Cycle Designs - http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html
> Richard Sachs Cycles - http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachstoys.html

In addition, www.ceeway.com has a whole lotta lugs (baa-bump baa-bump
gotta whole lot o' lugs, baa-bump baa-bump gotta whole lot o' lugs,
baa-bump baa-bump gotta whole lot o' lugs... uuhh sorry. Got
distracted there for a minute) to choose from, and let's not forget
Henry James! The state of lugged frames is probably as good now (or
better) that it has ever been. Certainly lugs themselves have never
been more precisely made than now.

 

[Donald Gillies]

Todd Kuzma <[email protected]> writes:

>I'd argue that if you, Eisentraut, and Ritchey each built a frame with the
>same geometry and tubing that experienced riders would notice absolutely no
>difference in ride quality. I'd argue that a frame with the same spec built
>by an apprentice at Waterford would ride the same as well. How could it
>not?

Gosh, stradivarius violins were all made with 17th century wood, why
is it that they are the most sought-after violins in modern history ??

I think that all builders who use common components and common tubing
in the same ways with the same brazing, are likely to make frames that
handle somewhat the same, and the build with the best pinning and
brazing the frame will make the longer-lived product.

After working closely with Brian Baylis, Brian taught and showed me
how to identify the telltale marks of a masterful american builder.
These details would be much cleaner (and probably more durable), but
would it affect ride quality? Not as much as it affects "WOW" quality
when you take a close-up look at the frame from 6 inches away.

There was something unique about the wood in that Italian forest, the
varnish, the geometry, the cut, and maybe even the glue used in a
stradivarius violin. Only a top-notch maker might notice this "random
bit of good luck" and have the skills to repeat the "good luck" over
and over and over again.

This is why, upon reflection, I'd buy from a maker (like e-Ritchie)
who is searching for the holy grail in bicycles - and is now making
his own lugs - with 30 years of practice to back him up.

To buy a generic waterford with generic henry james lugs cut in a
"Simplicity" pattern design just doesn't seem to me, to have a chance
of becoming like a stradivarius in 100 years.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA