Best American Made Lugged Steel Frame?



M

Mark

Guest
Hi Joe, Also, as another option to a nice Steel Lugged
Frame, would be a slightly older NOS Colnago Classic,
Crystal, or Master Light Frame.

I know you said "Best American Frames" But some of these
older Colnago Frames were quite nice in my opinion, with
Chrome Headtube Lugs, Fork, and Chrome Rear Chainstays.
Prices for these can range about $600-$750, and I think
they'd make a wonderful bike. Many may argue here about the
quality of these bike frames, but I myself certainly
wouldn't be ashamed to have one. Maybe some others here will
say they were all junk? I don't know?

Many of the paint finishes on these Colnago frames, could be
tad fragile, but were none the less very beautiful. Just
make sure that rear dropout spacing will be compatible with
what you wish to use. Some are 126mm, instead of 130mm.

I currently have a mint Midnight Blue NOS Colnago Frame on
"hold" with a seller, with the Chrome Headtube lugs, forks,
and Chainstays.

If I had my choice of "Pretty" frames, and cost was no
object for a USA steel Frame, it would maybe be a 2200 HCL
Waterford, with the hand carved lugs. Mark

[email protected] (Joe) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I've been looking around for a great American-made
> LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
> price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--
 
E

Eurastus

Guest
You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt. Even
if you ask fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs
does immaculate work. Well thought-out, no fad, perfect
geometery, fully custom in every way. His frames are painted
by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't buy better
than this in a lugged steel frame.

However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's
right, more then 2 years between order and delivery!!

Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650
and they go up to a little over $3000 with all the custom
paint and extra braze-ons possible (well, when you're
spending that kind of time and money, don't quibble over the
last few hundred bucks).

However, you will then own the very best on the planet.

As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+)
but when it came down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2
year wait. I went with a Ritchey Road Logic steel frame/fork
instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not made in the US
(though finished and painted here). It set me back $929 with
custom paint and took 2 months from order to delivery.
That's a little longer than normal for them, but Ritchey
changed shop locations and warehouses in the middle of the
order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.

Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals
the Sachs) and actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish
work are nice, but not Sachs/Bell quality. I'm satisfied for
the money I spent.

Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and look
hard to see another bike like yours. Neither of these are
like the current Trek or LeMond carbon-fiber wonder bikes,
with every other cyclist on the road sporting one.

However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th
birthday (12 years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???

[email protected] (Joe) wrote:
>I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED
>steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need
>anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked at
>Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I need
>(all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the price).
>Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes great
>lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
>Thanks in advance--
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt.
> Even if you ask fellow framebuilders, they will tell you
> Sachs does immaculate work. Well thought-out, no fad,
> perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His
frames
> are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't
> buy better than
this
> in a lugged steel frame.
>
> However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's
> right, more then 2 years between order and delivery!!
>
> Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650
> and they go up
to a
> little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra braze-
> ons possible
(well,
> when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't
> quibble over the
last
> few hundred bucks).
>
> However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
>
> As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+)
> but when it
came
> down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went
> with a Ritchey
Road
> Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not
> lugged, and not made
in
> the US (though finished and painted here). It set me back
> $929 with
custom
> paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a
> little longer
than
> normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and
> warehouses in the middle of the order. Normally it's
> 4-5 weeks.
>
> Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals
> the Sachs) and actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish
> work are nice, but not
Sachs/Bell
> quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
>
> Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and
> look hard to see another bike like yours. Neither of these
> are like the current Trek or
LeMond
> carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on the
> road sporting
one.
>
> However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th
> birthday (12 years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
>
> [email protected] (Joe) wrote:
> >I've been looking around for a great American-made
> >LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> >need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> >at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> >need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
> >price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> >makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> >less money?
> >
> >Thanks in advance--

Another builder of note is Dave Kirk.
http://www.kirkframeworks.com/ Worked for Serotta as
their custom builder, built the TdF bikes for the 7-11
Team and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out his own
shingle last year in Bozeman Montana. Makes very good
stuff, I've got one.
 
B

Bfd

Guest
"Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
>
> "Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:IuKdnbHVCqbHdlHdRVn-
> [email protected]
> > You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt.
> > Even if you
ask
> > fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs does
> > immaculate work.
Well
> > thought-out, no fad, perfect geometery, fully custom in
> > every way. His
> frames
> > are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You
> > can't buy better
than
> this
> > in a lugged steel frame.
> >
> > However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's
> > right, more then
2
> > years between order and delivery!!
> >
> > Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is
> > $2650 and they go
up
> to a
> > little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra
> > braze-ons possible
> (well,
> > when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't
> > quibble over the
> last
> > few hundred bucks).
> >
> > However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
> >
> > As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like
> > 20+) but when it
> came
> > down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I
> > went with a
Ritchey
> Road
> > Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not
> > lugged, and not
made
> in
> > the US (though finished and painted here). It set me
> > back $929 with
> custom
> > paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a
> > little longer
> than
> > normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and
> > warehouses in
the
> > middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
> >
> > Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it
> > rivals the Sachs)
and
> > actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are
> > nice, but not
> Sachs/Bell
> > quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
> >
> > Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and
> > look hard to see another bike like yours. Neither of
> > these are like the current Trek or
> LeMond
> > carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on
> > the road sporting
> one.
> >
> > However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th
> > birthday (12 years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
> >
> > [email protected] (Joe) wrote:
> > >I've been looking around for a great American-made
> > >LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> > >need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> > >at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> > >need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to
> > >the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> > >makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> > >less money?
> > >
> > >Thanks in advance--
>
> Another builder of note is Dave Kirk.
> http://www.kirkframeworks.com/
Worked
> for Serotta as their custom builder, built the TdF bikes
> for the 7-11 Team and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out
> his own shingle last year in Bozeman Montana. Makes very
> good stuff, I've got one.
>
Its interesting, but when you guys talk about "best frame
builder", don't forget Albert Eisentraut, aka the *Godfather
of American Framebuilding* - www.eisentraut.com
 
S

Steven L. Sheff

Guest
On 06/11/2004 04:34 PM, in article
[email protected], "Joe"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I've been looking around for a great American-made
> LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
> price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> less money?

For lugs and production, Waterford is pretty much it ... You
don't have to get all the fancy stuff, you know ...

Of course, I like Richard Sachs.

http://www.richardsachs.com/

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
S

Steven L. Sheff

Guest
On 06/11/2004 06:50 PM, in article [email protected],
"Alan" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Check this link out:
>
> http://www.kogswell.com/p.html
>
> A lugged frame for $699.

Not American-made.

Not 853.

But a great deal, if you want something with room for
fenders, and a more upright position, a la Rivendell.

> "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I've been looking around for a great American-made
>> LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
>> need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
>> at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
>> need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
>> price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
>> makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
>> less money?
>>
>> Thanks in advance--
>
>

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
B

Bill K.

Guest
It would be best if you could tell us what you plan to use
it for and about how much you weigh and what size frame
you need. If you're 5'6" and weigh 140 pounds and plan to
race, you would need a completely different bike with
different tubes than a 6'4" 250 pound tourist The
lightweight racer could get by with just about any tubeset
including the old 531. If you put the 250 pound rider on a
62 cm frame made with the same tubes..........I don't even
want to think about it.
 
S

Steven L. Sheff

Guest
On 06/11/2004 09:27 PM, in article [email protected], "Dave
Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> 853 isn't used for lugged frames.

If 853 isn't used for lugged frames, then what was Waterford
using on all those 853-stickered 2200s?

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
S

Steven L. Sheff

Guest
On 06/13/2004 06:03 PM, in article [email protected],
"Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote:

> However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th
> birthday (12 years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???

I'm hoping to get my second in time for my 40th birthday ...
(2 years).

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BCF28088.35984%[email protected]...
> On 06/11/2004 09:27 PM, in article wu-dncgaBY635VfdRVn-
> [email protected],
"Dave
> Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> > 853 isn't used for lugged frames.
>
>
>
> If 853 isn't used for lugged frames, then what was
> Waterford using on all those 853-stickered 2200s?
>
Of course you're correct. I should have said 853 was
developed as an air-hardning steel to be used primarily for
TIG'd and brazed frames. To see it used in lugged bikes is
somewhat unusual.
 
J

Joe

Guest
"Dave Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Eurastus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:IuKdnbHVCqbHdlHdRVn-
> [email protected]
> > You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt.
> > Even if you ask fellow framebuilders, they will tell you
> > Sachs does immaculate work. Well thought-out, no fad,
> > perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His
> frames
> > are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You
> > can't buy better than
> this
> > in a lugged steel frame.
> >
> > However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's
> > right, more then 2 years between order and delivery!!
> >
> > Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is
> > $2650 and they go up
> to a
> > little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra
> > braze-ons possible
> (well,
> > when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't
> > quibble over the
> last
> > few hundred bucks).
> >
> > However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
> >
> > As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like
> > 20+) but when it
> came
> > down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I
> > went with a Ritchey
> Road
> > Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not
> > lugged, and not made
> in
> > the US (though finished and painted here). It set me
> > back $929 with
> custom
> > paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a
> > little longer
> than
> > normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and
> > warehouses in the middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5
> > weeks.
> >
> > Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it
> > rivals the Sachs) and actually weighs less. Tthe paint
> > and finish work are nice, but not
> Sachs/Bell
> > quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
> >
> > Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and
> > look hard to see another bike like yours. Neither of
> > these are like the current Trek or
> LeMond
> > carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on
> > the road sporting
> one.
> >
> > However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th
> > birthday (12 years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
> >
> > [email protected] (Joe) wrote:
> > >I've been looking around for a great American-made
> > >LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> > >need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> > >at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> > >need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to
> > >the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> > >makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> > >less money?
> > >
> > >Thanks in advance--
>
> Another builder of note is Dave Kirk.
> http://www.kirkframeworks.com/ Worked for Serotta as
> their custom builder, built the TdF bikes for the 7-11
> Team and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out his own
> shingle last year in Bozeman Montana. Makes very good
> stuff, I've got one.

WOW, I checked out his website and he builds REALLY
beautiful bikes. Looks a lot like Sachs' work. However, I
think he is more upscale than what I'm looking for. I'm
basically just looking for a nice, light, production
steel frame with lugs--I don't need all the customization
that these builders offer, so I'm not willing to pay
extra for it.

But I am going to keep Kirk's name in mind if I really want
to treat myself.

Joe
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been looking around for a great American-made
> LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
> price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--

Here's a small builder that enjoys a very good reputation
locally: http://www.hairygary.com/ Might be worh looking at
considering his price.
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been looking around for a great American-made
> LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
> price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--
Here's another site for custom-built frames: http://www.bik-
emojo.com/search/bikes_and_accessories/custom/index.shtml
 
D

Dave Stallard

Guest
Joe wrote:

> I've been looking around for a great American-made
> LUGGED steel frame (preferably with 853 steel). I don't
> need anything custom, just a regular size. I've looked
> at Waterford, but they are WAY too expensive for what I
> need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds to the
> price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that
> makes great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for
> less money?

Peter Mooney in Belmont, MA does lugged steel frames, and
has some ready-built (not custom) in-house. http://www.peter-
mooney.com/

Richard Sachs is another that comes to mind.

Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that
lugged steel frames are on the way out, and are
increasingly the domain of boutique frame builders. More
bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and lugs are
getting harder to find.

Dave
 
D

Dave Thompson

Guest
"Dave Stallard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Peter Mooney in Belmont, MA does lugged steel frames, and
> has some ready-built (not custom) in-house. http://www.peter-
> mooney.com/
>
> Richard Sachs is another that comes to mind.
>
> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that
> lugged steel frames are on the way out, and are
> increasingly the domain of boutique frame builders. More
> bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and lugs are
> getting harder to find.
>
> Dave

Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged frames
and their being 'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold
true with the "majors" in bicycle building but certainly
not with the smaller builders, which by the way are growing
in number daily. Also there are more varieties of lugs now
than in the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and
others are developing and casting (or having cast for them)
their own patterns.

It's been my experience with riders I know, that the
appreciation of lugged bikes is growing and many owners are
specifying lugged when getting a custom built.
 
D

Dave Stallard

Guest
Dave Thompson wrote:

> Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged
> frames and their being 'on the way out'. Perhaps that may
> hold true with the "majors" in bicycle building but
> certainly not with the smaller builders, which by the way
> are growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties
> of lugs now than in the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs,
> Henry James and others are developing and casting (or
> having cast for them) their own patterns.

I'm only going by something I read once somewhere (maybe
on the Mooney site) about lugs becoming harder to find.
But I do think it's true that (as you say above) lugged
frames are increasingly the province of the smaller, more
craftman-like builders. And frames which come out of those
shops are unlikely to be inexpensive, which was what the
original poster seemed to be looking for. (That's not to
say they're not worth every penny, note.) Perhaps as
lugged frames coming out of smaller builders become more
popular, the majors will see it as a "trend" and take them
up again. Who nows?

Dave
 
R

Richard Sachs

Guest
lugs are not in short supply. the only thing that has changed
is that cheap, pricepoint lugs no longer exist because most
frames are tigged or nonferrous - the industrial made ones,
that is. my lugs (and a newer set to be available after july
1st), fork crowns, and frame dropouts are explained here
with some text that was outed about 22 months ago:
http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachslugs.html

these are now used by many american and some italian
builders. e-RICHIE ric[email protected]
www.richardsachs.com

"Dave Stallard" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
berlin.de...
> Dave Thompson wrote:
>
> > Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged
> > frames and their
being
> > 'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold true with the
> > "majors" in
bicycle
> > building but certainly not with the smaller builders,
> > which by the way
are
> > growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties
> > of lugs now than
in
> > the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and others
> > are developing
and
> > casting (or having cast for them) their own patterns.
>
> I'm only going by something I read once somewhere (maybe
> on the Mooney site) about lugs becoming harder to find.
> But I do think it's true that (as you say above) lugged
> frames are increasingly the province of the smaller, more
> craftman-like builders. And frames which come out of those
> shops are unlikely to be inexpensive, which was what the
> original poster seemed to be looking for. (That's not to
> say they're not worth every penny, note.) Perhaps as
> lugged frames coming out of smaller builders become more
> popular, the majors will see it as a "trend" and take them
> up again. Who nows?
>
> Dave
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
Eurastus <[email protected]> writes:

> You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt.

Wonderful frames. But the best without a doubt? Well, that's
not so clear. Chris Kvale, Richard Moon, Bilenky, etc are
all great frames and rival Sachs.

> As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+)
> but when it came down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2
> year wait. I went with a Ritchey Road Logic steel
> frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not
> made in the US (though finished and painted here). It set
> me back $929 with custom paint and took 2 months from
> order to delivery. That's a little longer than normal for
> them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in
> the middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
>
> Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals
> the Sachs) and actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish
> work are nice, but not Sachs/Bell quality. I'm satisfied
> for the money I spent.

I have a Ritchey Road Classic (all fillet brazed) which
used the same tubes and geometry at the time it was built
(Tange Prestige drawn to TR's specs). I bought it used from
the guy TR built it for. I'll second Erastus' comments: a
superb handling frame, almost telepathic, very sure around
twisty turns, over bumpy surfaces and yet stable. A nice
balance of handling properties. IMHO you couldn't go wrong
with a TR frame.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
[email protected] (Joe) writes:

> I'm basically just looking for a nice, light, production
> steel frame with lugs--

That simplifies it:

www.heronbicycles.com www.kogswell.com
www.rivendellbicycles.com and look at the Rambouillet.

If you want a little more upscale, then Waterford.