Best Steel Road Bike



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On 2 Jun 2003 15:28:07 -0700, [email protected] (bfd) wrote:

>>
>Similiarly, some carbon frames, like Calfee, can also be repaired very easily. In fact, replacing a
>single tube is no trouble at all on a Calfee.

And other carbon bikes, like Trek, have lifetime warranties. If it breaks, they give you a whole new
frame. They even have a generous crash damage policy, if you are the cause of the damage.

Barry
 
[email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> The best part of this thread is that, contrary to 'gotta be aluminum or carbon' resellers(you know
> who you are!!!), that steel is alive and well and still a great(the best?) choice for a road
> frame, in terms of those things that are important in a road frame- looks, ride, strength, price,
> etc... Steel is still a wonderful material, and will be for a while, methinks...

I think you are correct. The nano-gram weenies will flock to the exotics, but everyone I have
convinced to give steel a try has been converted. I even have a steel bike bought from one of those
resellers to whom you refer ;-)

- rick warner
 
> > >Bianchi amd Landshark are apples and oranges. John Slawta at Landshark is one of around 20
> > >artisans around the US who will custom-build you a beautiful steel frame, while Bianchi is a
> > >giant factory that mass produces frames of steel and other materials at all quality levels.

There are rather more than 20 custom frame builders in the US who will build you a work of art.
Chris Kvale, Curt Goodrich, Richard Sachs, Richard Moon, Peter Weigle, Bilenky, Bob Brown, Albert
Eisentraut, Tom Ritchey, Rivendell, Tom Kellog, Harry Havanoonian- and those are just ones I can
think of off the top of my head without trying.

Bianchi does also make handbuilt custom bikes (for pro teams, which means you and I ain't
getting one) and handbuilt high quality race bikes at the Reparto Corsa division (which you and
I *can* get).
 
Tim McNamara wrote:

> There are rather more than 20 custom frame builders in the US who will build you a work of art.
> Chris Kvale, Curt Goodrich, Richard Sachs, Richard Moon, Peter Weigle, Bilenky, Bob Brown, Albert
> Eisentraut, Tom Ritchey, Rivendell, Tom Kellog, Harry Havanoonian- and those are just ones I can
> think of off the top of my head without trying.
>
> Bianchi does also make handbuilt custom bikes (for pro teams, which means you and I ain't
> getting one) and handbuilt high quality race bikes at the Reparto Corsa division (which you and
> I *can* get).

Bianchi Reparto Corse frames are nothing like those of the builders above. The quality of the frames
we have seen from RC has been average at best and often quite poor.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery Lasalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com http://www.tullios.com
 
B a r r y B u r k e J r . <n/a@> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On 2 Jun 2003 15:28:07 -0700, [email protected] (bfd) wrote:
>
> >>
> >Similiarly, some carbon frames, like Calfee, can also be repaired very easily. In fact, replacing
> >a single tube is no trouble at all on a Calfee.
>
> And other carbon bikes, like Trek, have lifetime warranties. If it breaks, they give you a whole
> new frame. They even have a generous crash damage policy, if you are the cause of the damage.
>
Agree, Trek has a fantastic warranty. However, Trek can also repair its frames and does not always
give a "whole new frame" if it breaks. Trek, Calfee, Kestrel and, from what I understand Aegis, all
have excellent warranty/support for their product and one should not be fearful about buying carbon
frames build by any of them.
 
> everyone I have convinced to give steel a try has been converted.

I switched from steel (a nice custom frame from one of England's top builders) to carbon
(mass-produced Trek 5500). The Trek is stiffer (in torsion, which is what really counts) and lighter
than my steel frame; these things matter if you climb a lot of hills. I do not believe that you can
build a steel frame that has the same characteristics without using such thin tubes that denting
becomes a hazard.

This "ride quality" stuff does not convince me (tyres and geometry are the biggest factors
influencing "feel"). FWIW, I happily ride centuries on rough roads and a skinny saddle on the Trek.

PS: From your reference to "nanogram weenies", I assume your bike weighs at least 25lb? Why is it
that there is this ceaseless drip-feed of abuse in this vein on this NG? I am sick to death of
comments along the line of "you'll save at most 3oz., which is insignificant"; add all those
"few ounces" and you end up with a few pounds. I seriously doubt many people here would accept
$1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey pocket on every ride, so why is it considered so odd
to spend that kind of money to get rid of that kind of weight?
 
Peter Headland wrote:

> I seriously doubt many people here would accept $1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey pocket
> on every ride,

Really? I would gladly carry 6 bricks in my panniers if I were paid $1000 to do so on every ride.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although golf was originally restricted to wealthy, overweight Protestants, today it's open to
anybody who owns hideous clothing. -- Dave Barry
 
I have got a steel frame custom made by Michel Celmins, St. Barbara. It was not made for me, though,
I bought the frame/fork(pump used on E-bay because it was hard to find large frames ( I am 6' 7").
It is made of Columbus SLX and SL tubes. Despite the large size (63 cm) my steel bike weighs less
than 20 lb with all-whether 25 mm tires on it. I fitted it with Ultegra equipment, except a 180 mm
Dura Ace crank/BB and Spinnergy wheels. I had really luck with the frame/fork combination because it
fits me perfectly. Steel bikes are really comfortable on the rough roads around where I live.

Erik Lindeberg, Trondheim, Norway

"Todd Kuzma" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > There are rather more than 20 custom frame builders in the US who will build you a work of art.
> > Chris Kvale, Curt Goodrich, Richard Sachs, Richard Moon, Peter Weigle, Bilenky, Bob Brown,
> > Albert Eisentraut, Tom Ritchey, Rivendell, Tom Kellog, Harry Havanoonian- and those are just
> > ones I can think of off the top of my head without trying.
> >
> > Bianchi does also make handbuilt custom bikes (for pro teams, which means you and I ain't
> > getting one) and handbuilt high quality race bikes at the Reparto Corsa division (which you and
> > I *can* get).
>
> Bianchi Reparto Corse frames are nothing like those of the builders above. The quality of the
> frames we have seen from RC has been average at best and often quite poor.
>
> Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery Lasalle, Il 815-223-1776
> http://www.heronbicycles.com http://www.tullios.com
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Todd Kuzma <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > There are rather more than 20 custom frame builders in the US who will build you a work of art.
> > Chris Kvale, Curt Goodrich, Richard Sachs, Richard Moon, Peter Weigle, Bilenky, Bob Brown,
> > Albert Eisentraut, Tom Ritchey, Rivendell, Tom Kellog, Harry Havanoonian- and those are just
> > ones I can think of off the top of my head without trying.
> >
> > Bianchi does also make handbuilt custom bikes (for pro teams, which means you and I ain't
> > getting one) and handbuilt high quality race bikes at the Reparto Corsa division (which you and
> > I *can* get).
>
> Bianchi Reparto Corse frames are nothing like those of the builders above. The quality of the
> frames we have seen from RC has been average at best and often quite poor.

Well, you're comparing them to Herons, aren't you? Those are a tough act to follow!

My Reparto Corsa frame, which I sold years ago and was probably made in the very early 90's, was
nicely built. The geometry didn't work very well and it was an awful crit bike and a poor climbing
bike with a really long front center and a really short rear center. In fast turns it always felt
vague and like it was going to wash out the front wheel, and uphill it tended to pop wheelies on
steep seated climbs.

My fillet-brazed TR is just a little shorter up front, a little longer in back, and handles like a
dream. Pretty close geometry to a Heron Road, actually.
 
On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:29:00 -0500, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

>There are rather more than 20 custom frame builders in the US who will build you a work of art.

But are there any custom frame builders who will build you a decent frame, for comparitively little
money, rather than a work of art that costs more than most of the bikes I lust after, let alone buy?

Jasper
 
Peter Headland <[email protected]> wrote:
>all those "few ounces" and you end up with a few pounds. I seriously doubt many people here would
>accept $1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey pocket on every ride, so why is it considered so
>odd to spend that kind of money to get rid of that kind of weight?

Jeresy pocket, no - that would be uncomfortable. But in the panniers? Sure.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
 
[email protected] (Peter Headland) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > everyone I have convinced to give steel a try has been converted.
>
> I switched from steel (a nice custom frame from one of England's top builders) to carbon
> (mass-produced Trek 5500). The Trek is stiffer (in torsion, which is what really counts) and
> lighter than my steel frame; these things matter if you climb a lot of hills. I do not believe
> that you can build a steel frame that has the same characteristics without using such thin tubes
> that denting becomes a hazard.

I ride steel, I climb hills - lots of hills. I average about 9,000 ft of elevation gain per 100
miles. Average grade on most of the hills I ride is probably 8-10%. Does that qualify in your book?
I have a Trek OCLV bike, too. I can climb fine, and fast, on either. You prefer carbon; so what?
Does not make it better for you or for anyone else.

> PS: From your reference to "nanogram weenies", I assume your bike weighs at least 25lb?

Not at all. My steel bikes all weigh in the 20-22 lb class. The new one I am having built might be
over 25 lb., but it is a touring bike and is built for durability; some of the components are on the
heavy side.

> Why is it that there is this ceaseless drip-feed of abuse in this vein on this NG? I am sick to
> death of comments along the line of "you'll save at most 3oz., which is insignificant"; add all
> those "few ounces" and you end up with a few pounds. I seriously doubt many people here would
> accept $1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey pocket on every ride, so why is it considered
> so odd to spend that kind of money to get rid of that kind of weight?

I think the reaction is against those who try to sell the notion that if you save a few grams (and
in some instances, it is just a few grams, not pounds) someone will ride faster, better, etc. Fact
of the matter is, for most recreational riders the weekly fluctuation in body weight is more than
the weight differences being discussed in a lot of the advice here. What does it matter for most
folks if there is 1" of exposed cable for the 2 derailleurs and brakes, or the cables are clipped
tight against the binder bolts? We are talking 1-2 grams, perhaps, yet I have seen such advice. In
the end, most of the weight savings discussed here could just as easily be translated into 'lose a
few pounds off your body' for many recreational riders; the effect is the same, and it is much less
expensive.

- rick warner, who is off to climb a hill on one of his steel bikes
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:

> Peter Headland wrote:
>
> > I seriously doubt many people here would accept $1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey
> > pocket on every ride,
>
> Really? I would gladly carry 6 bricks in my panniers if I were paid $1000 to do so on every ride.

Too late, Ben: you ride steel right? You got paid a thousand bucks just once to carry that brick :).

PS: when you coming out for a crit?
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
David Damerell at [email protected] wrote on 6/4/03 6:21 AM:

> Peter Headland <[email protected]> wrote:
>> all those "few ounces" and you end up with a few pounds. I seriously doubt many people here would
>> accept $1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey pocket on every ride, so why is it considered
>> so odd to spend that kind of money to get rid of that kind of weight?
>
> Jeresy pocket, no - that would be uncomfortable. But in the panniers? Sure.

I would be happy to offer a padded half brick, at $6.50 plus shipping. For an extra $4, it can be
covered in lycra to match a jersey.

Of course, I'm working on a magnesium half brick with considerable weight savings. It looks like
that should come in at around $59.99 plus shipping.

Don't tell anyone, but this fall, the hollow box construction carbon fiber half brick should be
available as well. I'm trying to get an OEM spec on that model, and am not quite sure that the final
price will be, but I'd estimate under $200.

-- Jim
 
Peter Headland wrote:
>>everyone I have convinced to give steel a try has been converted.
>
> I switched from steel (a nice custom frame from one of England's top builders) to carbon
> (mass-produced Trek 5500). The Trek is stiffer (in torsion, which is what really counts) and
> lighter than my steel frame; these things matter if you climb a lot of hills. I do not believe
> that you can build a steel frame that has the same characteristics without using such thin tubes
> that denting becomes a hazard.

As an experiment, I built up a steel Heron Road frame with lightweight parts and got the weight down
to 17.3 pounds. The frame is no lightweight at around 4.25 pounds, and it is plenty stiff. The
retail price of all the parts, frame, and fork was around $3900, about the same as a 17-18 pound
Trek or Specialized. I later added Zipp wheels, sew-ups, and a couple of other things and got the
weight down in the mid-16 pound range, but the total price got up near $4500.

A list of components used on the 17.3 pound version is on our website.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Lasalle, Il 815-223-1776 http://www.heronbicycles.com
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Todd Kuzma <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Bianchi Reparto Corse frames are nothing like those of the builders above. The quality of the
>>frames we have seen from RC has been average at best and often quite poor.
>
> Well, you're comparing them to Herons, aren't you? Those are a tough act to follow!

The Reparto Corse frames that we have had in our shop (we carried Bianchi for some time) often
needed significant prep work. The frames were usually out of alignment, some so much so that we
had to send them back. The BB shells and head tubes would often require a lot of work. The face of
the head tube was often rounded rather than flat. We also saw a number of frames with poor paint
and chrome.

While not necessarily a quality issue, we found that the RC frames varied quite a bit in size and
geometry from the published specs. I was told by a Bianchi insider that each framebuilder built
frames his own way and some did not measure the tubes but rather just knew from experience how to
build each size. The net result was occasionally a frame which did not fit a customer because it was
not the geometry we had expected. Additionally, the clearances on some frames was so poor that many
700x23 tires would not fit without rubbing.

Having said all that, let me say that I have always been a sucker for celeste Bianchis and always
found their steel frames to be quite attractive in general if not in detail.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776 http://www.heronbicycles.com
 
>> > I switched from steel ... to carbon
>
> You prefer carbon; so what?

So there is an opposing view to your comment that "everyone I have convinced to give steel a try has
been converted." Indeed, I would suggest that a significant percentage of those who buy CF bikes
have experience of steel and thus are doing the opposite of what youy suggest.

> Does not make it better for you

That is a fatuous remark. Since this is entirely a matter of preference and I have experience of
both materials, which I prefer is clearly "better" for me.

> My steel bikes all weigh in the 20-22 lb class.

So my 5500 is about 4lb lighter than some of your steel bikes (how much does a brick weigh?) The
lightest I got my steel bike down to was about 23lb (fearing dents and corrosion, I eschewed the
thinner tubes when I had it built). I strongly suspect the Trek is stiffer than all of your steel
bikes. Lighter, stiffer, what's not to like unless you buy this "ride quality" stuff?

> I think the reaction is against those who try to sell the notion that if you save a few grams (and
> in some instances, it is just a few grams, not pounds) someone will ride faster, better, etc.

Straw man. I never see such suggestions; I see "weight weenie" sneers almost daily - it's just
another manifestation of typical NG bigotry.

> In the end, most of the weight savings discussed here could just as easily be translated into
> 'lose a few pounds off your body' for many recreational riders; the effect is the same, and it is
> much less expensive.

This isn't an either/or thing. Taking weight off body or bike, it all helps, and the more the
better. I lost over 25lb off my body last year, in addition to about 5lb by changing bikes. Spending
the money to buy the bike was a heck of a lot less effort than losing 5lb.
 
"Jasper Janssen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:29:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >There are rather more than 20 custom frame builders in
the US who will
> >build you a work of art.
>
> But are there any custom frame builders who will build you
a decent frame,
> for comparitively little money, rather than a work of art
that costs more
> than most of the bikes I lust after, let alone buy?

Nope. There's probably no way to make custom framebuilding a viable business in the US without
finding a way to charge *a lot* of money for it. That usually means gilding a titanium lily,
so to speak.

Matt O.
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Peter Headland wrote:
>>
>>> I seriously doubt many people here would accept $1000 to carry half a brick in their jersey
>>> pocket on every ride,
>>
>> Really? I would gladly carry 6 bricks in my panniers if I were paid $1000 to do so on every ride.
>
> Too late, Ben: you ride steel right? You got paid a thousand bucks just once to carry that
> brick :).

I did? I don't remember anyone ever paying me for the privilege.

> PS: when you coming out for a crit?

I dunno. Is there another "recreational" category crit coming up? I seem to be recovered from the
Fleche Pacifique now, and I made pretty good time coming up to SFU today.

The Fleche (sorry, too lazy to make proper accents) was fun in retrospect, but probably the most
miserable ride I've been on to date -- solid rain for the first five hours, with the temperature
around 4 degrees centigrade. I'd done barely any training before the ride, so I completely wore
myself out, and started bonking after 360 km, and for a while I thought someone was going to have to
come pick me up and drive me the remaining 20 km.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent. -- Walt Kelly
 
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