Better Frame or Better Components

[jitteringjr]

This is basically just another, "which bike should I buy," thread is disguise, but please hear me out.

I am looking to spend about $2000 on a new bike and I have come up with two possibilities: The 05 Felt F55 and the Orbea Mitis with Ultegra. Here are the links:

http://www.feltracing.com/2005_bikes/2005_f55.html

http://www.orbea-usa.com/fly.aspx?menuid=4&layout=viewproduct&taxid=231&pid=75

If I buy the Orbea, I am getting a nicer frame from Spain with a full carbon rear triangle. The Felt frame has only carbon seat stays and the fork is one of those "wrap the aluminum steerer with carbon fiber" forks, whereas the Orbea is full carbon.

On the other hand, if I buy the Felt, I get Dura Ace components ( I would upgrade the questionable Tektro brakes with Dura Ace which evens the price BTW) with a compact carbon FSA crank compared to the Ultegra of the Orbea.

Also, with the Orbea, I can choose custom wheels and I can get Dura Ace hubs and Mavic open pro rims and shave a 100 grams or so. With the Felt, I get sharp Velomax wheels with high "bling" factor at the expense of additional weight.

I know I could always upgrade the components, but for argument sake, lets say that would never happen, because I most likely would not do so. So with that in mind, what is more important in this case, having a better frame, or better components? Which bike would you choose?

I am interested in hearing people's opinions on this.

Thanks

 

[boudreaux]

This is basically just another, "which bike should I buy," thread is disguise, but please hear me out.

I am looking to spend about $2000 on a new bike and I have come up with two possibilities: The 05 Felt F55 and the Orbea Mitis with Ultegra. Here are the links:

http://www.feltracing.com/2005_bikes/2005_f55.html

http://www.orbea-usa.com/fly.aspx?menuid=4&layout=viewproduct&taxid=231&pid=75

If I buy the Orbea, I am getting a nicer frame from Spain with a full carbon rear triangle. The Felt frame has only carbon seat stays and the fork is one of those "wrap the aluminum steerer with carbon fiber" forks, whereas the Orbea is full carbon.

On the other hand, if I buy the Felt, I get Dura Ace components ( I would upgrade the questionable Tektro brakes with Dura Ace which evens the price BTW) with a compact carbon FSA crank compared to the Ultegra of the Orbea.

Also, with the Orbea, I can choose custom wheels and I can get Dura Ace hubs and Mavic open pro rims and shave a 100 grams or so. With the Felt, I get sharp Velomax wheels with high "bling" factor at the expense of additional weight.

I know I could always upgrade the components, but for argument sake, lets say that would never happen, because I most likely would not do so. So with that in mind, what is more important in this case, having a better frame, or better components? Which bike would you choose?

I am interested in hearing people's opinions on this.

Thanks

I'd always go for the better frame,subject to one's own definition of what's 'better'. There are lots of cheap DA bikes around with generic frames.

 

[artmichalek]

I'd go with the better frame. It's a lot easier to upgrade the components later than it is to switch frames.

 

[Virenque]

I don`t know, hard to choose! But I think you won`t feel the difference between carbon and alu rear triangle, or very little!
My advice - spend some more money and buy Orbea with Dura Ace

 

[jitteringjr]

I don`t know, hard to choose! But I think you won`t feel the difference between carbon and alu rear triangle, or very little!
My advice - spend some more money and buy Orbea with Dura Ace

That is interesting that you don't think I would feel a difference with the carbon triangle. I have had LBS people tell me that I would be able to notice a big difference between just the 7005 aluminum in a good Italian frame and the 7005 aluminum in a Taiwanese frame like the Felt. They of course are biased because they would make a larger commission by selling a more expensive Italian Frame compared to a cheaper Felt. So I don't know if I believe them. That why it is good to hear something to the contrary by an unbiased source such as yourself.

I have definitely thought about going D-ace on the Orbea, but with money I would save going with Ultegra, I could buy a pretty decent hard tail MTB. Maybe for a $100 or 2 more I could but it would be close. (Kona has some choices in MTB locally in the $700-1000 range)

 

[Virenque]

As I said few times before, for example, alu 7005 is alu 7005! You can feel the difference if sizes or geometry are different and not if one is made in Italy and other in Taiwan! Just my opinion, may be I`m wrong..

Components are the most used part of your bike! If they won`t work good, you will feel that the most and inversely! I have Gitane with whole alu 7000 frame and I had Pinarello Marvel with carbon rear triangle and I can`t say there is a difference! May be I would feel it if I`ll try both bikes on the same road, one after another, but who cares for that! The only difference I felt between these two bikes were the difference between 105 on Marvel and Ultegra on Gitane! That`s why components have precedence over the frames like these two for me!

 

[JohnO]

Just my experience: I have a carbon Trek with Campy Chorus, a buddy has a steel LeMond with 105.

Does Chorus feel different than 105? You bet it does. Does Chorus make the bike faster? Not that I can tell. Does it last longer? We've had our bikes two years, neither of us has had a failure.

On the other, hand, the frames are quite different, and the difference was very noticable. The steel LeMond rides softer, the carbon Trek is stiffer and quicker.

From my perspective, the difference in groups paled in comparison to the difference in framesets. Given your choices, I'd get Ultegra on the Orbea and a hardtail.

 

[boudreaux]

That is interesting that you don't think I would feel a difference with the carbon triangle. I have had LBS people tell me that I would be able to notice a big difference between just the 7005 aluminum in a good Italian frame and the 7005 aluminum in a Taiwanese frame like the Felt. They of course are biased because they would make a larger commission by selling a more expensive Italian Frame compared to a cheaper Felt. So I don't know if I believe them. That why it is good to hear something to the contrary by an unbiased source such as yourself.

There is certainly alot of BS that comes out of LBS. Many inexpensive generic aluminum frames are no prize for comfort tho, keeping in mind that 'comfort' is subjective one one guys jackhammer is anothers plush and responsive. CF rear triangle are alot of hype and marketing,although there may be some small benefit with respect to damping small vibrations.

 

[Virenque]

Just my experience: I have a carbon Trek with Campy Chorus, a buddy has a steel LeMond with 105.

Does Chorus feel different than 105? You bet it does. Does Chorus make the bike faster? Not that I can tell. Does it last longer? We've had our bikes two years, neither of us has had a failure.

On the other, hand, the frames are quite different, and the difference was very noticable. The steel LeMond rides softer, the carbon Trek is stiffer and quicker.

From my perspective, the difference in groups paled in comparison to the difference in framesets. Given your choices, I'd get Ultegra on the Orbea and a hardtail.

Do you have full carbon? If yes, it doesn`t surprise me then..

105 is not bad when it`s adjusted, but I had to adjust it a lot more often than Ultegra and it was rattling all the time in levers (in all levers, not just mines)!

 

[RC2]

A frame's geometry and how it's manufactured can influence it's feel more significantly than it's material. I wouldn't make much out of the CF rear triangle vs. just seat stays. How do they ride?? -- your perception of which feels better is the most important.

And you pay a heck of a lot for DA over ultegra, but don't get much for the $ other than bling... IMHO.

To me it's a no-brianer: pay more for a great frame.

 

[SDL]

I would definately go with the better frame. Besides if the 10s Ultegra is as good as the 9s version the only difference between it and DA is a few grams and the bling factor.

 

[Virenque]

Yes that`s true too! Do you really need Dura Ace? Or would you feel the difference between DA and Ultegra?

Heh..hard decision!

 

[Shreklookalike]

Ok, guys. Relative newbie here. WTF is "bling factor"?!?

 

[Virenque]

I don`t know too..may be prestige?

 

[dhk]

Ok, guys. Relative newbie here. WTF is "bling factor"?!?

Bling is what you see when an Escalade with 24" chrome spinner rims cruises past.

Virenque, no one "needs" Dura Ace over Ultegra. It's a luxury purchase. I got it with my custom frame last fall because it wasn't that much more money, and figured if I was ever going to experience DA shifting, brakes and cassette, now was the time.

I'd agree with your LBS salesman that not all 7005 frames are created equal. Tubesets come in different wall-thickness and shapes, and a $100 frame won't use the finest triple-butted tubeset from Columbus. Cheap, thick-walled 7005 tubing would likely be used in the budget frame to allow for quick, high-heat machine welding and low distortion.

Suggest you test ride some bikes to compare them. The saleman making the claims should be happy to have you learn for yourself....and he'll likely sell you a more expensive bike this way!

 

[jitteringjr]

Bling is what you see when an Escalade with 24" chrome spinner rims cruises past.

No Tacky is when an Escalade with 24" chrome spinner rims cruises past.

Bling is when an Escalade cruises past. Bling is flashy, classy, head turning.

I am a victim of silly fad terminology sorry for spreading it.

no one "needs" Dura Ace over Ultegra. It's a luxury purchase.

Good to hear that. Although I noticed a bid difference in shifting quality when I upgraded from Sora to Ultegra, I was not sure if I would notice much change from Ultegra to Dura Ace. When I had Sora, I made derailleur tweaks almost constantly. With Ultegra, I rode for an entire year with never adjusting anything. How much better could Dura Ace be as far as shifting performance goes. It just shaves weight basically right? Since you are never going to see me in the Maillot Jaune, the weight saving doesn’t mean that much to me.

Although, today I test rode a Cervelo Super prodigy and that Orbea Mitis frame and I must say, Steel IS REAL. The Cervelo was just as stiff as the Mitis and yet so much more comfortable. I haven't ridden the Felt yet, because it hasn't arrived at the LBS, but it will be real hard to beat the Prodigy.

Any opinions on the 2004 Super Prodigy?

 

[Virenque]

Yes, of course you feel the difference! There are few classes between Sora and Ultegra and no between Ultegra and DA! And prices..

 

[PeterF]

I'd always go for the better frame,subject to one's own definition of what's 'better'. There are lots of cheap DA bikes around with generic frames.

I would always go for the better frame first, better wheels second and then worry about components (which you can always swap out later). Find out who the manufacturer of the tubeset is and then check out their websites to determine which has the highest quality. For example Dedacciai 16.5 is a higher quality than 12.5 for steel, or Columbus Airplane over Columbus Altec (aluminum). It's not hard to do, and many of the manufacturers will list their frames in the order of the quality (they are certainly priced that way). Proprietary forks can be tricky, but as a rule of thumb. 100% carbon is always pricier than forks with an alloy steerer (not necessarily better, but certainly lighter and more damp). Enjoy.

 

[dhk]

I would always go for the better frame first, better wheels second and then worry about components (which you can always swap out later). Find out who the manufacturer of the tubeset is and then check out their websites to determine which has the highest quality. For example Dedacciai 16.5 is a higher quality than 12.5 for steel, or Columbus Airplane over Columbus Altec (aluminum). It's not hard to do, and many of the manufacturers will list their frames in the order of the quality (they are certainly priced that way). Proprietary forks can be tricky, but as a rule of thumb. 100% carbon is always pricier than forks with an alloy steerer (not necessarily better, but certainly lighter and more damp). Enjoy.

Lighter tubesets aren't really better "quality", they're just thinner. Columbus, Deda and the other top makers have a range of tubesets because the lightest tubeset you can find isn't intended to be best for everyone. A good builder selects tube weights and dimensions to give the frame enough strength, stiffness, and durability for your application.

 

[sprintmonkey924]

No Tacky is when an Escalade with 24" chrome spinner rims cruises past.

Bling is when an Escalade cruises past. Bling is flashy, classy, head turning.

I am a victim of silly fad terminology sorry for spreading it.



Good to hear that. Although I noticed a bid difference in shifting quality when I upgraded from Sora to Ultegra, I was not sure if I would notice much change from Ultegra to Dura Ace. When I had Sora, I made derailleur tweaks almost constantly. With Ultegra, I rode for an entire year with never adjusting anything. How much better could Dura Ace be as far as shifting performance goes. It just shaves weight basically right? Since you are never going to see me in the Maillot Jaune, the weight saving doesn’t mean that much to me.

Although, today I test rode a Cervelo Super prodigy and that Orbea Mitis frame and I must say, Steel IS REAL. The Cervelo was just as stiff as the Mitis and yet so much more comfortable. I haven't ridden the Felt yet, because it hasn't arrived at the LBS, but it will be real hard to beat the Prodigy.

Any opinions on the 2004 Super Prodigy?

The ride quality differences between the Cervelo SP (maybe one of the coolest steel frames on the road - "bling") and the alum bikes you have mentioned are going to be dramatic. Also, the differences between aluminum frames can be dramatic. Felt's frames are mass produced in Taiwan. Orbea's frames are mass produced in Spain. Only you can be the judge if if that means anything in your descision. How the bike feels is a lot more important than where the factory is, and 7005 is 7005, butting and shaping makes the difference in how it rides. An all-carbon rear end isn't going to be a grand ride quality improvement over just carbon seat stays (or even over all-alum in many cases). My all alum Colnago VIP (Altec tubing) is all most as comfortable a ride as my all-carbon Time VX, while other all-alum frames I've had have been jack-hammers. Don't let the sales monkey at the LBS tell you what you like. Ride as many as you can and pick what's important to YOU.

As for components, my suggestion to buy the frame that's best for you, and upgrade the parts later. The most important parts for performance are shifters and rear der., so get and Ultegra-equipped bike and upgrade to D/A in order of importance when you can. Parts like the front der. and brakes probably won't make much of a perceptable difference in performance (or durability).

Your jump in quality from Sora to Ultegra was pretty significant, but the gap between Ultegra to D/A is pretty minimal in terms of performance and durability - sometimes imperceptable. There's no rule that a bike has to have all one make and model of parts. Another note (as someone else mentioned), wheels are the best performance upgrade you can make.