D
Donald Munro
Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> Ummm. What? Ah. Circumcision.
Cosmetic ? Don't tell me this is another helmet thread.
> Ummm. What? Ah. Circumcision.
Cosmetic ? Don't tell me this is another helmet thread.
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B
Bill
Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Now, sneaking in a question, does one full blast run per day make any
>> difference compared to a few hours on the bike? I'm thinking heart
>> condition mainly on this.
>
> The literature I have seen in the last year or two has indicated that
> sprint training has significant benefits for endurance. I don't think
> your heart can tell if you're running or riding a bike.
Probably not, but my legs sure feel the difference. It could be geometry
related since I ride 3 different bikes. They all fit pretty good but
none is a custom fit. I think I can stay heart healthy with my 2 minute
blasts as opposed to watching television or sitting here at the computer.
I guess anything that raises you heart rate for a while is a good thing.
I try to get the run in first and then do the bike ride and when I get
home I sometimes do the run again.
I just hope that is a good plan.
Bill Baka
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Now, sneaking in a question, does one full blast run per day make any
>> difference compared to a few hours on the bike? I'm thinking heart
>> condition mainly on this.
>
> The literature I have seen in the last year or two has indicated that
> sprint training has significant benefits for endurance. I don't think
> your heart can tell if you're running or riding a bike.
Probably not, but my legs sure feel the difference. It could be geometry
related since I ride 3 different bikes. They all fit pretty good but
none is a custom fit. I think I can stay heart healthy with my 2 minute
blasts as opposed to watching television or sitting here at the computer.
I guess anything that raises you heart rate for a while is a good thing.
I try to get the run in first and then do the bike ride and when I get
home I sometimes do the run again.
I just hope that is a good plan.
Bill Baka
M
Michael Press
Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't want to make a 'me' thing out of this post
Yes, you do.
--
Michael Press
<[email protected]>,
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't want to make a 'me' thing out of this post
Yes, you do.
--
Michael Press
M
Michael Press
Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Phil Holman writes:
> >
> >>>>> Wouldn't that argument mean that if you did observe a change in
> >>>>> VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) then the previous value was faulty and
> >>>>> shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison? If one subscribed
> >>>>> to that argument, both the improvement and VO2Max and the
> >>>>> improvement in power should be discounted.
> >
> >>>> It depends on the definition of VO2max. I don't see how something
> >>>> like this could be so fixed.
> >
> >>> Yeah, I was engaging in Socratic dialog. I don't think VO2Max is
> >>> that fixed, either -- in part because of the kg vs. "lean" kg
> >>> issue. OTOH, one does have to worry about how well the initial
> >>> tests were done. Which sort of argues in favor of RCTs.
> >
> >>> BTW, do you ever discuss the gastric freezing debacle in your
> >>> class? When I used to teach intro I used that as my cautionary
> >>> tale for RCTs (I used tuberculous meningitis as my
> >>> counter-example).
> >
> >> No, and searching through some articles it looks to be very
> >> controversial. Is it universally resolved yet? For the success
> >> stories we do the Linus Pauling vitamin C to prevent colds and the
> >> largest medical experiment of all time with the Salk vaccine.
> >
> >> It's a shock to students when they see the higher contracted numbers
> >> of polio in the placebo group. "You mean, if they had given the
> >> vaccine to everyone there would be a couple of hundred less children
> >> who contracted polio." Errrm.
> >
> > This whole subject reappear under new guises because people do not
> > want to believe that there is a direct relationship between aerobic
> > capacity and performance on a bicycle.
>
> Here we go again.
>
> >
> > I spent years reading how ankling would improve climbing and top speed
> > and that it needed to be practiced diligently. That went away only to
> > be replaced by other beliefs that we can fabricate power by trickery.
> >
> > In recent times, steam RR locomotives, although not rated in Horse
> > Power (but rather "tractive effort", the pull at which the wheels
> > would spin) had a conversion chart to HP based on grate area in the
> > fire box which governs how much heat can be transferred to steam in
> > the boiler. Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
> > physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
> > not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>
> You continue to repeat this misconception. Lung displacement or lung
> capacity is not the limiting factor in climbing or TTing or cycling in
> general. If you understood the cause and effect elements you would
> understand that extreme "out of breath" is caused by excess CO2 in the
> blood stream as a result of lactic buffering. That is, the limits of
> aerobic capacity were reached upstream (cardiac output, blood muscle
> interface limitations etc) and no further limitations are imposed by the
> lungs. It wouldn't matter if you doubled lung capacity, blood lactate
> concentrations wouldn't change and this is the culminating event in
> limiting aerobic performance. Heavy breathing is an effect not a cause.
As I understand it the proximate cause is mitochondrial
respiration rate overload. Cellular ATP hydrolysis in
excess of the mitochondrial respiration rate increases
H+ in the cell.
--
Michael Press
<[email protected]>,
"Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Phil Holman writes:
> >
> >>>>> Wouldn't that argument mean that if you did observe a change in
> >>>>> VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) then the previous value was faulty and
> >>>>> shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison? If one subscribed
> >>>>> to that argument, both the improvement and VO2Max and the
> >>>>> improvement in power should be discounted.
> >
> >>>> It depends on the definition of VO2max. I don't see how something
> >>>> like this could be so fixed.
> >
> >>> Yeah, I was engaging in Socratic dialog. I don't think VO2Max is
> >>> that fixed, either -- in part because of the kg vs. "lean" kg
> >>> issue. OTOH, one does have to worry about how well the initial
> >>> tests were done. Which sort of argues in favor of RCTs.
> >
> >>> BTW, do you ever discuss the gastric freezing debacle in your
> >>> class? When I used to teach intro I used that as my cautionary
> >>> tale for RCTs (I used tuberculous meningitis as my
> >>> counter-example).
> >
> >> No, and searching through some articles it looks to be very
> >> controversial. Is it universally resolved yet? For the success
> >> stories we do the Linus Pauling vitamin C to prevent colds and the
> >> largest medical experiment of all time with the Salk vaccine.
> >
> >> It's a shock to students when they see the higher contracted numbers
> >> of polio in the placebo group. "You mean, if they had given the
> >> vaccine to everyone there would be a couple of hundred less children
> >> who contracted polio." Errrm.
> >
> > This whole subject reappear under new guises because people do not
> > want to believe that there is a direct relationship between aerobic
> > capacity and performance on a bicycle.
>
> Here we go again.
>
> >
> > I spent years reading how ankling would improve climbing and top speed
> > and that it needed to be practiced diligently. That went away only to
> > be replaced by other beliefs that we can fabricate power by trickery.
> >
> > In recent times, steam RR locomotives, although not rated in Horse
> > Power (but rather "tractive effort", the pull at which the wheels
> > would spin) had a conversion chart to HP based on grate area in the
> > fire box which governs how much heat can be transferred to steam in
> > the boiler. Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
> > physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
> > not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>
> You continue to repeat this misconception. Lung displacement or lung
> capacity is not the limiting factor in climbing or TTing or cycling in
> general. If you understood the cause and effect elements you would
> understand that extreme "out of breath" is caused by excess CO2 in the
> blood stream as a result of lactic buffering. That is, the limits of
> aerobic capacity were reached upstream (cardiac output, blood muscle
> interface limitations etc) and no further limitations are imposed by the
> lungs. It wouldn't matter if you doubled lung capacity, blood lactate
> concentrations wouldn't change and this is the culminating event in
> limiting aerobic performance. Heavy breathing is an effect not a cause.
As I understand it the proximate cause is mitochondrial
respiration rate overload. Cellular ATP hydrolysis in
excess of the mitochondrial respiration rate increases
H+ in the cell.
--
Michael Press
M
Michael Press
Guest
In article
<[email protected]>
,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Phil Holman writes:
> >>
> >>>>>> Wouldn't that argument mean that if you did observe a change in
> >>>>>> VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) then the previous value was faulty and
> >>>>>> shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison? If one subscribed
> >>>>>> to that argument, both the improvement and VO2Max and the
> >>>>>> improvement in power should be discounted.
> >>
> >>>>> It depends on the definition of VO2max. I don't see how something
> >>>>> like this could be so fixed.
> >>
> >>>> Yeah, I was engaging in Socratic dialog. I don't think VO2Max is
> >>>> that fixed, either -- in part because of the kg vs. "lean" kg
> >>>> issue. OTOH, one does have to worry about how well the initial
> >>>> tests were done. Which sort of argues in favor of RCTs.
> >>
> >>>> BTW, do you ever discuss the gastric freezing debacle in your
> >>>> class? When I used to teach intro I used that as my cautionary
> >>>> tale for RCTs (I used tuberculous meningitis as my
> >>>> counter-example).
> >>
> >>> No, and searching through some articles it looks to be very
> >>> controversial. Is it universally resolved yet? For the success
> >>> stories we do the Linus Pauling vitamin C to prevent colds and the
> >>> largest medical experiment of all time with the Salk vaccine.
> >>
> >>> It's a shock to students when they see the higher contracted numbers
> >>> of polio in the placebo group. "You mean, if they had given the
> >>> vaccine to everyone there would be a couple of hundred less children
> >>> who contracted polio." Errrm.
> >>
> >> This whole subject reappear under new guises because people do not
> >> want to believe that there is a direct relationship between aerobic
> >> capacity and performance on a bicycle.
> >
> > Here we go again.
> >
> >>
> >> I spent years reading how ankling would improve climbing and top speed
> >> and that it needed to be practiced diligently. That went away only to
> >> be replaced by other beliefs that we can fabricate power by trickery.
> >>
> >> In recent times, steam RR locomotives, although not rated in Horse
> >> Power (but rather "tractive effort", the pull at which the wheels
> >> would spin) had a conversion chart to HP based on grate area in the
> >> fire box which governs how much heat can be transferred to steam in
> >> the boiler. Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
> >> physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
> >> not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
> >
> > You continue to repeat this misconception. Lung displacement or lung
> > capacity is not the limiting factor in climbing or TTing or cycling in
> > general. If you understood the cause and effect elements you would
> > understand that extreme "out of breath" is caused by excess CO2 in the
> > blood stream as a result of lactic buffering. That is, the limits of
> > aerobic capacity were reached upstream (cardiac output, blood muscle
> > interface limitations etc) and no further limitations are imposed by the
> > lungs. It wouldn't matter if you doubled lung capacity, blood lactate
> > concentrations wouldn't change and this is the culminating event in
> > limiting aerobic performance. Heavy breathing is an effect not a cause.
>
> As proof of what Phil has to say about this - when you're staggeringly out
> of breath and can hardly move your blood oxygen is still more than 90%.
> Normal blood oxygen runs about 98%.
>
> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
> main coronary artery. Until he got a partial heart transplant in 1999 his
> blood oxygen was normally 70% or less. Proof that blood oxygen is NOT the
> problem in climbing - rather lactac and excess CO2 is. BTW - he's still
> alive at about 55 years old now.
No, lactate is not the problem.
You should know because you posted this URL:
<URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
--
Michael Press
<[email protected]>
,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Phil Holman writes:
> >>
> >>>>>> Wouldn't that argument mean that if you did observe a change in
> >>>>>> VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) then the previous value was faulty and
> >>>>>> shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison? If one subscribed
> >>>>>> to that argument, both the improvement and VO2Max and the
> >>>>>> improvement in power should be discounted.
> >>
> >>>>> It depends on the definition of VO2max. I don't see how something
> >>>>> like this could be so fixed.
> >>
> >>>> Yeah, I was engaging in Socratic dialog. I don't think VO2Max is
> >>>> that fixed, either -- in part because of the kg vs. "lean" kg
> >>>> issue. OTOH, one does have to worry about how well the initial
> >>>> tests were done. Which sort of argues in favor of RCTs.
> >>
> >>>> BTW, do you ever discuss the gastric freezing debacle in your
> >>>> class? When I used to teach intro I used that as my cautionary
> >>>> tale for RCTs (I used tuberculous meningitis as my
> >>>> counter-example).
> >>
> >>> No, and searching through some articles it looks to be very
> >>> controversial. Is it universally resolved yet? For the success
> >>> stories we do the Linus Pauling vitamin C to prevent colds and the
> >>> largest medical experiment of all time with the Salk vaccine.
> >>
> >>> It's a shock to students when they see the higher contracted numbers
> >>> of polio in the placebo group. "You mean, if they had given the
> >>> vaccine to everyone there would be a couple of hundred less children
> >>> who contracted polio." Errrm.
> >>
> >> This whole subject reappear under new guises because people do not
> >> want to believe that there is a direct relationship between aerobic
> >> capacity and performance on a bicycle.
> >
> > Here we go again.
> >
> >>
> >> I spent years reading how ankling would improve climbing and top speed
> >> and that it needed to be practiced diligently. That went away only to
> >> be replaced by other beliefs that we can fabricate power by trickery.
> >>
> >> In recent times, steam RR locomotives, although not rated in Horse
> >> Power (but rather "tractive effort", the pull at which the wheels
> >> would spin) had a conversion chart to HP based on grate area in the
> >> fire box which governs how much heat can be transferred to steam in
> >> the boiler. Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
> >> physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
> >> not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
> >
> > You continue to repeat this misconception. Lung displacement or lung
> > capacity is not the limiting factor in climbing or TTing or cycling in
> > general. If you understood the cause and effect elements you would
> > understand that extreme "out of breath" is caused by excess CO2 in the
> > blood stream as a result of lactic buffering. That is, the limits of
> > aerobic capacity were reached upstream (cardiac output, blood muscle
> > interface limitations etc) and no further limitations are imposed by the
> > lungs. It wouldn't matter if you doubled lung capacity, blood lactate
> > concentrations wouldn't change and this is the culminating event in
> > limiting aerobic performance. Heavy breathing is an effect not a cause.
>
> As proof of what Phil has to say about this - when you're staggeringly out
> of breath and can hardly move your blood oxygen is still more than 90%.
> Normal blood oxygen runs about 98%.
>
> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
> main coronary artery. Until he got a partial heart transplant in 1999 his
> blood oxygen was normally 70% or less. Proof that blood oxygen is NOT the
> problem in climbing - rather lactac and excess CO2 is. BTW - he's still
> alive at about 55 years old now.
No, lactate is not the problem.
You should know because you posted this URL:
<URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
--
Michael Press
S
Stu Fleming
Guest
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I don't want to make a 'me' thing out of this post
>
> Yes, you do.
>
There's no "me" in "team".
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I don't want to make a 'me' thing out of this post
>
> Yes, you do.
>
There's no "me" in "team".
D
David Kerber
Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
> > physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
> > not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>
> Are you sure enough to stand behind that 100%. My lung capacity has not
> changed since last years summer, but my conditioning has gotten rather
> lax due to a winter spent more with the computer than the bike. I
> definitely can't climb as well as last summer and it isn't due to lung
> capacity. Want to rethink that one? There is also the ability to use
> what air you do take in with each breath and the amount of reserve
> energy in your legs.
> I'm waiting for the big equation now. ;<)
> Bill Baka
I think he's saying that lung capacity is what *ultimately* limits your
aerobic capabilities for climing or TT'ing, when you are at the best
physical condition your genetics allow you to be. If you haven't been
training, then other things will limit you before you max out your lung
capacity.
--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).
[email protected] says...
> Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
> > physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
> > not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>
> Are you sure enough to stand behind that 100%. My lung capacity has not
> changed since last years summer, but my conditioning has gotten rather
> lax due to a winter spent more with the computer than the bike. I
> definitely can't climb as well as last summer and it isn't due to lung
> capacity. Want to rethink that one? There is also the ability to use
> what air you do take in with each breath and the amount of reserve
> energy in your legs.
> I'm waiting for the big equation now. ;<)
> Bill Baka
I think he's saying that lung capacity is what *ultimately* limits your
aerobic capabilities for climing or TT'ing, when you are at the best
physical condition your genetics allow you to be. If you haven't been
training, then other things will limit you before you max out your lung
capacity.
--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).
T
Tim McNamara
Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > Ummm. What? Ah. Circumcision.
>
> Cosmetic ? Don't tell me this is another helmet thread.
LOL! Circumcision is actually a controversial procedure even though
it's taken for granted. For one thing, it is generally done without
anesthesia under the myth that infants don't feel pain. For another,
the owner of the penis is not consulted before the procedure is done.
And for a third, the procedure is really quite unnecessary. It's done
mainly out of mindless tradition, although there are of course multiple
religions that practice circumcision for various hygienic or other
faith-based reasons.
Some people get quite perturbed about the subject and consider it to be
genital mutilation and a human rights issue. Some of the threads I have
seen on the topic are far more intense than any helmet thread.
Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > Ummm. What? Ah. Circumcision.
>
> Cosmetic ? Don't tell me this is another helmet thread.
LOL! Circumcision is actually a controversial procedure even though
it's taken for granted. For one thing, it is generally done without
anesthesia under the myth that infants don't feel pain. For another,
the owner of the penis is not consulted before the procedure is done.
And for a third, the procedure is really quite unnecessary. It's done
mainly out of mindless tradition, although there are of course multiple
religions that practice circumcision for various hygienic or other
faith-based reasons.
Some people get quite perturbed about the subject and consider it to be
genital mutilation and a human rights issue. Some of the threads I have
seen on the topic are far more intense than any helmet thread.
C
Curtis L. Russell
Guest
"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:timmcn-
....
> Some people get quite perturbed about the subject and consider it to be
> genital mutilation and a human rights issue. Some of the threads I have
> seen on the topic are far more intense than any helmet thread.
Think how intense it would be if infants could post. Probably talk like it
was all about them...
--
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
....
> Some people get quite perturbed about the subject and consider it to be
> genital mutilation and a human rights issue. Some of the threads I have
> seen on the topic are far more intense than any helmet thread.
Think how intense it would be if infants could post. Probably talk like it
was all about them...
--
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
B
Bill
Guest
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
>> main coronary artery.
Huh?
How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
This sounds impossible.
Bill Baka
Until he got a partial heart transplant in 1999 his
>> blood oxygen was normally 70% or less. Proof that blood oxygen is NOT the
>> problem in climbing - rather lactac and excess CO2 is. BTW - he's still
>> alive at about 55 years old now.
>
> No, lactate is not the problem.
> You should know because you posted this URL:
> <URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
>
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
>> main coronary artery.
Huh?
How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
This sounds impossible.
Bill Baka
Until he got a partial heart transplant in 1999 his
>> blood oxygen was normally 70% or less. Proof that blood oxygen is NOT the
>> problem in climbing - rather lactac and excess CO2 is. BTW - he's still
>> alive at about 55 years old now.
>
> No, lactate is not the problem.
> You should know because you posted this URL:
> <URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
>
B
Bill
Guest
David Kerber wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
>>> physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
>>> not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>> Are you sure enough to stand behind that 100%. My lung capacity has not
>> changed since last years summer, but my conditioning has gotten rather
>> lax due to a winter spent more with the computer than the bike. I
>> definitely can't climb as well as last summer and it isn't due to lung
>> capacity. Want to rethink that one? There is also the ability to use
>> what air you do take in with each breath and the amount of reserve
>> energy in your legs.
>> I'm waiting for the big equation now. ;<)
>> Bill Baka
>
> I think he's saying that lung capacity is what *ultimately* limits your
> aerobic capabilities for climing or TT'ing, when you are at the best
> physical condition your genetics allow you to be. If you haven't been
> training, then other things will limit you before you max out your lung
> capacity.
>
That is probably the case, where my heavy breathing is just to charge up
some out of shape legs. I'm finding out the hard way that it is way too
easy to get out of shape and a lot more work to get back into top form.
Add the age factor and it starts to get rough.
Quoting George Burns..."I wish I was 18 again".
Bill Baka
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
>>> physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
>>> not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>> Are you sure enough to stand behind that 100%. My lung capacity has not
>> changed since last years summer, but my conditioning has gotten rather
>> lax due to a winter spent more with the computer than the bike. I
>> definitely can't climb as well as last summer and it isn't due to lung
>> capacity. Want to rethink that one? There is also the ability to use
>> what air you do take in with each breath and the amount of reserve
>> energy in your legs.
>> I'm waiting for the big equation now. ;<)
>> Bill Baka
>
> I think he's saying that lung capacity is what *ultimately* limits your
> aerobic capabilities for climing or TT'ing, when you are at the best
> physical condition your genetics allow you to be. If you haven't been
> training, then other things will limit you before you max out your lung
> capacity.
>
That is probably the case, where my heavy breathing is just to charge up
some out of shape legs. I'm finding out the hard way that it is way too
easy to get out of shape and a lot more work to get back into top form.
Add the age factor and it starts to get rough.
Quoting George Burns..."I wish I was 18 again".
Bill Baka
B
Bill
Guest
Stu Fleming wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't want to make a 'me' thing out of this post
>>
>> Yes, you do.
>>
> There's no "me" in "team".
What team? I can barely find a fit grandkid to ride with. They would
rather play video games. Even my friends won't ride anything with 2
wheels unless it has a 750cc (or bigger) motor.
Bill Baka
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't want to make a 'me' thing out of this post
>>
>> Yes, you do.
>>
> There's no "me" in "team".
What team? I can barely find a fit grandkid to ride with. They would
rather play video games. Even my friends won't ride anything with 2
wheels unless it has a 750cc (or bigger) motor.
Bill Baka
R
On Jun 6, 9:32 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
> >> main coronary artery.
>
> Huh?
> How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
> This sounds impossible.
Kunich was not being exact with terminology (what a surprise). He was
probably talking about a near complete stenosis of the left main
coronary artery. The coronary arteries are asymmetric and roughly two-
thirds of the heart's own blood supply goes through the left main (the
other third goes via the right coronary artery which mostly supplies
the back side of the heart), so when it's blocked it's A Bad Thing.
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
> >> main coronary artery.
>
> Huh?
> How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
> This sounds impossible.
Kunich was not being exact with terminology (what a surprise). He was
probably talking about a near complete stenosis of the left main
coronary artery. The coronary arteries are asymmetric and roughly two-
thirds of the heart's own blood supply goes through the left main (the
other third goes via the right coronary artery which mostly supplies
the back side of the heart), so when it's blocked it's A Bad Thing.
B
Bill
Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> On Jun 6, 9:32 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
>>>> main coronary artery.
>> Huh?
>> How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
>> This sounds impossible.
>
> Kunich was not being exact with terminology (what a surprise). He was
> probably talking about a near complete stenosis of the left main
> coronary artery. The coronary arteries are asymmetric and roughly two-
> thirds of the heart's own blood supply goes through the left main (the
> other third goes via the right coronary artery which mostly supplies
> the back side of the heart), so when it's blocked it's A Bad Thing.
>
That makes a lot more sense. He mentioned the age as 55, which is
younger than me, but I have known one guy who had to have a 5 way bypass
at 49. He's a computer network tech and I don't think he ever gets any
real exercise.
Thanks for jumping in with that.
Bill Baka
> On Jun 6, 9:32 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without a
>>>> main coronary artery.
>> Huh?
>> How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
>> This sounds impossible.
>
> Kunich was not being exact with terminology (what a surprise). He was
> probably talking about a near complete stenosis of the left main
> coronary artery. The coronary arteries are asymmetric and roughly two-
> thirds of the heart's own blood supply goes through the left main (the
> other third goes via the right coronary artery which mostly supplies
> the back side of the heart), so when it's blocked it's A Bad Thing.
>
That makes a lot more sense. He mentioned the age as 55, which is
younger than me, but I have known one guy who had to have a 5 way bypass
at 49. He's a computer network tech and I don't think he ever gets any
real exercise.
Thanks for jumping in with that.
Bill Baka
P
Phil Holman
Guest
"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Phil Holman writes:
>> >
>> >>>>> Wouldn't that argument mean that if you did observe a change in
>> >>>>> VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) then the previous value was faulty and
>> >>>>> shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison? If one subscribed
>> >>>>> to that argument, both the improvement and VO2Max and the
>> >>>>> improvement in power should be discounted.
>> >
>> >>>> It depends on the definition of VO2max. I don't see how
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> like this could be so fixed.
>> >
>> >>> Yeah, I was engaging in Socratic dialog. I don't think VO2Max is
>> >>> that fixed, either -- in part because of the kg vs. "lean" kg
>> >>> issue. OTOH, one does have to worry about how well the initial
>> >>> tests were done. Which sort of argues in favor of RCTs.
>> >
>> >>> BTW, do you ever discuss the gastric freezing debacle in your
>> >>> class? When I used to teach intro I used that as my cautionary
>> >>> tale for RCTs (I used tuberculous meningitis as my
>> >>> counter-example).
>> >
>> >> No, and searching through some articles it looks to be very
>> >> controversial. Is it universally resolved yet? For the success
>> >> stories we do the Linus Pauling vitamin C to prevent colds and the
>> >> largest medical experiment of all time with the Salk vaccine.
>> >
>> >> It's a shock to students when they see the higher contracted
>> >> numbers
>> >> of polio in the placebo group. "You mean, if they had given the
>> >> vaccine to everyone there would be a couple of hundred less
>> >> children
>> >> who contracted polio." Errrm.
>> >
>> > This whole subject reappear under new guises because people do not
>> > want to believe that there is a direct relationship between aerobic
>> > capacity and performance on a bicycle.
>>
>> Here we go again.
>>
>> >
>> > I spent years reading how ankling would improve climbing and top
>> > speed
>> > and that it needed to be practiced diligently. That went away only
>> > to
>> > be replaced by other beliefs that we can fabricate power by
>> > trickery.
>> >
>> > In recent times, steam RR locomotives, although not rated in Horse
>> > Power (but rather "tractive effort", the pull at which the wheels
>> > would spin) had a conversion chart to HP based on grate area in the
>> > fire box which governs how much heat can be transferred to steam in
>> > the boiler. Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
>> > physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
>> > not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>>
>> You continue to repeat this misconception. Lung displacement or lung
>> capacity is not the limiting factor in climbing or TTing or cycling
>> in
>> general. If you understood the cause and effect elements you would
>> understand that extreme "out of breath" is caused by excess CO2 in
>> the
>> blood stream as a result of lactic buffering. That is, the limits of
>> aerobic capacity were reached upstream (cardiac output, blood muscle
>> interface limitations etc) and no further limitations are imposed by
>> the
>> lungs. It wouldn't matter if you doubled lung capacity, blood lactate
>> concentrations wouldn't change and this is the culminating event in
>> limiting aerobic performance. Heavy breathing is an effect not a
>> cause.
>
> As I understand it the proximate cause is mitochondrial
> respiration rate overload. Cellular ATP hydrolysis in
> excess of the mitochondrial respiration rate increases
> H+ in the cell.
>
OK I'm impressed. For me its more of a notional thing.
Phil H
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Phil Holman writes:
>> >
>> >>>>> Wouldn't that argument mean that if you did observe a change in
>> >>>>> VO2Max (in ml/kg/min) then the previous value was faulty and
>> >>>>> shouldn't be used as a basis for comparison? If one subscribed
>> >>>>> to that argument, both the improvement and VO2Max and the
>> >>>>> improvement in power should be discounted.
>> >
>> >>>> It depends on the definition of VO2max. I don't see how
>> >>>> something
>> >>>> like this could be so fixed.
>> >
>> >>> Yeah, I was engaging in Socratic dialog. I don't think VO2Max is
>> >>> that fixed, either -- in part because of the kg vs. "lean" kg
>> >>> issue. OTOH, one does have to worry about how well the initial
>> >>> tests were done. Which sort of argues in favor of RCTs.
>> >
>> >>> BTW, do you ever discuss the gastric freezing debacle in your
>> >>> class? When I used to teach intro I used that as my cautionary
>> >>> tale for RCTs (I used tuberculous meningitis as my
>> >>> counter-example).
>> >
>> >> No, and searching through some articles it looks to be very
>> >> controversial. Is it universally resolved yet? For the success
>> >> stories we do the Linus Pauling vitamin C to prevent colds and the
>> >> largest medical experiment of all time with the Salk vaccine.
>> >
>> >> It's a shock to students when they see the higher contracted
>> >> numbers
>> >> of polio in the placebo group. "You mean, if they had given the
>> >> vaccine to everyone there would be a couple of hundred less
>> >> children
>> >> who contracted polio." Errrm.
>> >
>> > This whole subject reappear under new guises because people do not
>> > want to believe that there is a direct relationship between aerobic
>> > capacity and performance on a bicycle.
>>
>> Here we go again.
>>
>> >
>> > I spent years reading how ankling would improve climbing and top
>> > speed
>> > and that it needed to be practiced diligently. That went away only
>> > to
>> > be replaced by other beliefs that we can fabricate power by
>> > trickery.
>> >
>> > In recent times, steam RR locomotives, although not rated in Horse
>> > Power (but rather "tractive effort", the pull at which the wheels
>> > would spin) had a conversion chart to HP based on grate area in the
>> > fire box which governs how much heat can be transferred to steam in
>> > the boiler. Grate area is closely similar to lung displacement for
>> > physically fit racers. That is what limits climbing or TT ability,
>> > not ankling, pedaling style or other external means.
>>
>> You continue to repeat this misconception. Lung displacement or lung
>> capacity is not the limiting factor in climbing or TTing or cycling
>> in
>> general. If you understood the cause and effect elements you would
>> understand that extreme "out of breath" is caused by excess CO2 in
>> the
>> blood stream as a result of lactic buffering. That is, the limits of
>> aerobic capacity were reached upstream (cardiac output, blood muscle
>> interface limitations etc) and no further limitations are imposed by
>> the
>> lungs. It wouldn't matter if you doubled lung capacity, blood lactate
>> concentrations wouldn't change and this is the culminating event in
>> limiting aerobic performance. Heavy breathing is an effect not a
>> cause.
>
> As I understand it the proximate cause is mitochondrial
> respiration rate overload. Cellular ATP hydrolysis in
> excess of the mitochondrial respiration rate increases
> H+ in the cell.
>
OK I'm impressed. For me its more of a notional thing.
Phil H
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> No, lactate is not the problem.
> You should know because you posted this URL:
> <URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
You're right - I'd forgotten that.
news:[email protected]...
>
> No, lactate is not the problem.
> You should know because you posted this URL:
> <URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
You're right - I'd forgotten that.
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>
>> ,
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without
>>> a main coronary artery.
>
> Huh? How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
> This sounds impossible.
"Sounds" is not "is". This is a known birth defect and occurs often enough
that they were familiar with the condition when they shoved a catheter
through the deadend of the coronary artery. In his case the minor arteries
and a hole between the chambers of his heart sufficed to keep him alive
though he was a blue baby. His whole life each succeeding doctor told him
that he only had a couple of months to a year to live.
He is now about 55 and back in the mid-90's they replaced 25% of his heart
with one that had a coronary artery on it and then later they had to go in
and replace the valve with a mechanical valve. And then that valve failed
and they had to replace it again.
He stood for the bar and passed so he knew what his rights were and managed
to maintain health insurance his whole life with Kaiser. Believe me they
grumbled a whole lot but they have kept him alive and he has two daughters
and worked most of his life.
After he had his heart repaired and his VO2 went from 70% to 99% he acted
like a drunk for a couple of years until he adjusted to not having oxygen
his whole life.
news:[email protected]...
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>
>> ,
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person without
>>> a main coronary artery.
>
> Huh? How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
> This sounds impossible.
"Sounds" is not "is". This is a known birth defect and occurs often enough
that they were familiar with the condition when they shoved a catheter
through the deadend of the coronary artery. In his case the minor arteries
and a hole between the chambers of his heart sufficed to keep him alive
though he was a blue baby. His whole life each succeeding doctor told him
that he only had a couple of months to a year to live.
He is now about 55 and back in the mid-90's they replaced 25% of his heart
with one that had a coronary artery on it and then later they had to go in
and replace the valve with a mechanical valve. And then that valve failed
and they had to replace it again.
He stood for the bar and passed so he knew what his rights were and managed
to maintain health insurance his whole life with Kaiser. Believe me they
grumbled a whole lot but they have kept him alive and he has two daughters
and worked most of his life.
After he had his heart repaired and his VO2 went from 70% to 99% he acted
like a drunk for a couple of years until he adjusted to not having oxygen
his whole life.
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
As Robert pointed out, I've been using the incorrect names - my
ex-brother-in-law was born WITH a coronary artery but without the AORTA
believe it not.
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>
>>> ,
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person
>>>> without a main coronary artery.
>>
>> Huh? How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
>> This sounds impossible.
>
> "Sounds" is not "is". This is a known birth defect and occurs often enough
> that they were familiar with the condition when they shoved a catheter
> through the deadend of the coronary artery. In his case the minor arteries
> and a hole between the chambers of his heart sufficed to keep him alive
> though he was a blue baby. His whole life each succeeding doctor told him
> that he only had a couple of months to a year to live.
>
> He is now about 55 and back in the mid-90's they replaced 25% of his heart
> with one that had a coronary artery on it and then later they had to go in
> and replace the valve with a mechanical valve. And then that valve failed
> and they had to replace it again.
>
> He stood for the bar and passed so he knew what his rights were and
> managed to maintain health insurance his whole life with Kaiser. Believe
> me they grumbled a whole lot but they have kept him alive and he has two
> daughters and worked most of his life.
>
> After he had his heart repaired and his VO2 went from 70% to 99% he acted
> like a drunk for a couple of years until he adjusted to not having oxygen
> his whole life.
>
>
ex-brother-in-law was born WITH a coronary artery but without the AORTA
believe it not.
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>
>>> ,
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person
>>>> without a main coronary artery.
>>
>> Huh? How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
>> This sounds impossible.
>
> "Sounds" is not "is". This is a known birth defect and occurs often enough
> that they were familiar with the condition when they shoved a catheter
> through the deadend of the coronary artery. In his case the minor arteries
> and a hole between the chambers of his heart sufficed to keep him alive
> though he was a blue baby. His whole life each succeeding doctor told him
> that he only had a couple of months to a year to live.
>
> He is now about 55 and back in the mid-90's they replaced 25% of his heart
> with one that had a coronary artery on it and then later they had to go in
> and replace the valve with a mechanical valve. And then that valve failed
> and they had to replace it again.
>
> He stood for the bar and passed so he knew what his rights were and
> managed to maintain health insurance his whole life with Kaiser. Believe
> me they grumbled a whole lot but they have kept him alive and he has two
> daughters and worked most of his life.
>
> After he had his heart repaired and his VO2 went from 70% to 99% he acted
> like a drunk for a couple of years until he adjusted to not having oxygen
> his whole life.
>
>
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:34:37 GMT, Bill wrote:
>> Like maybe those silly oval crank rings about 15-20 years back?
>
> They're back and called Q-Rings.
And the oval rings stuff started WAY back in the 20's I think. Every couple
of decades someone reinvents things.
But that is the way of the world. When researching an invention of my uncle
back in the 60's, I discovered the identical invention every 20 years since
the patent office opened.
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:34:37 GMT, Bill wrote:
>> Like maybe those silly oval crank rings about 15-20 years back?
>
> They're back and called Q-Rings.
And the oval rings stuff started WAY back in the 20's I think. Every couple
of decades someone reinvents things.
But that is the way of the world. When researching an invention of my uncle
back in the 60's, I discovered the identical invention every 20 years since
the patent office opened.
B
Bill
Guest
Tom Kunich wrote:
> As Robert pointed out, I've been using the incorrect names - my
> ex-brother-in-law was born WITH a coronary artery but without the AORTA
> believe it not.
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>
>>>> ,
>>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person
>>>>> without a main coronary artery.
>>> Huh? How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
>>> This sounds impossible.
>> "Sounds" is not "is". This is a known birth defect and occurs often enough
>> that they were familiar with the condition when they shoved a catheter
>> through the deadend of the coronary artery. In his case the minor arteries
>> and a hole between the chambers of his heart sufficed to keep him alive
>> though he was a blue baby. His whole life each succeeding doctor told him
>> that he only had a couple of months to a year to live.
>>
>> He is now about 55 and back in the mid-90's they replaced 25% of his heart
>> with one that had a coronary artery on it and then later they had to go in
>> and replace the valve with a mechanical valve. And then that valve failed
>> and they had to replace it again.
>>
>> He stood for the bar and passed so he knew what his rights were and
>> managed to maintain health insurance his whole life with Kaiser. Believe
>> me they grumbled a whole lot but they have kept him alive and he has two
>> daughters and worked most of his life.
>>
>> After he had his heart repaired and his VO2 went from 70% to 99% he acted
>> like a drunk for a couple of years until he adjusted to not having oxygen
>> his whole life.
>>
>>
>
>
Kind of amazing story there. If he lived all that time and there are
more like him that really does make for a survival tale.
Cheers,
Bill Baka
> As Robert pointed out, I've been using the incorrect names - my
> ex-brother-in-law was born WITH a coronary artery but without the AORTA
> believe it not.
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>
>>>> ,
>>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>> I have an ex-brother in law who was the longest surviving person
>>>>> without a main coronary artery.
>>> Huh? How did he live at all without a main coronary artery?
>>> This sounds impossible.
>> "Sounds" is not "is". This is a known birth defect and occurs often enough
>> that they were familiar with the condition when they shoved a catheter
>> through the deadend of the coronary artery. In his case the minor arteries
>> and a hole between the chambers of his heart sufficed to keep him alive
>> though he was a blue baby. His whole life each succeeding doctor told him
>> that he only had a couple of months to a year to live.
>>
>> He is now about 55 and back in the mid-90's they replaced 25% of his heart
>> with one that had a coronary artery on it and then later they had to go in
>> and replace the valve with a mechanical valve. And then that valve failed
>> and they had to replace it again.
>>
>> He stood for the bar and passed so he knew what his rights were and
>> managed to maintain health insurance his whole life with Kaiser. Believe
>> me they grumbled a whole lot but they have kept him alive and he has two
>> daughters and worked most of his life.
>>
>> After he had his heart repaired and his VO2 went from 70% to 99% he acted
>> like a drunk for a couple of years until he adjusted to not having oxygen
>> his whole life.
>>
>>
>
>
Kind of amazing story there. If he lived all that time and there are
more like him that really does make for a survival tale.
Cheers,
Bill Baka
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