bicycle appraisal needed for one-off bike

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Marc Rosenbaum, Oct 31, 2003.

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  1. I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my Bachelor's
    thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube frame, and one-off
    pedals, hubs, and BB. It was built as a fixed gear bike, and weighs about 13 pounds currently. At
    the time I believe it was the lightest ridable bike in the world (it weighed in at 12 pounds 5
    ounces back then, with a different handlebar set-up that was connected to the fork crown).

    I'm either going to donate the bike to a musuem or sell it, in either case an appraisal would be
    helpful. It would be helpful to know what cost range I might expect for this service, also.

    Thanks for any assistance provided.

    Marc Rosenbaum Meriden, NH
     
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  2. Phil Brown

    Phil Brown Guest

    >I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my Bachelor's
    >thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube frame, and one-off
    >pedals, hubs, and BB.

    Is this the same material science class that Gary Klein was in? Phil Brown
     
  3. On 31 Oct 2003 10:26:11 -0800, [email protected] (Marc Rosenbaum) wrote:

    >Thanks for any assistance provided.
    >
    >Marc Rosenbaum Meriden, NH

    What else have you done?

    In my experience, such projects only take on real value if the builder becomes famous or otherwise
    important to the technology or industry later.

    Do you have any documentation to support a "lightest bike at the time" claim? Did anyone of
    significance ride it? Did it win any races, design awards, etc...?

    Barry
     
  4. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "Phil Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my
    > >Bachelor's thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube frame,
    > >and one-off pedals, hubs, and BB.
    >
    > Is this the same material science class that Gary Klein was in?

    Hard to believe that this guy beat Gary, at the same school, and that he was not mentioned in Klein
    v. Cannondale. Also, Bill Shook of American Classic was riding his OS aluminum bike in May of 1974.
    So, to be the supposed "first" OS aluminum frame, it would have had to be built before then. If the
    OPs dates are right, however, it is interesting that Gary conceived of his OS aluminum frame in
    October 1974 and built it in February 1975 -- all of this after the end of the school year in '74.
    Hmmmm. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  5. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "Phil Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > So, to be the supposed "first" OS aluminum frame, it would have had to be built
    before
    > >then.
    >
    > There were "OS" aluminium frames made in France before WWII.

    That is why I put "first" in quotes. In the Klein v. Cannondale case, the court only talked about
    the Shook frame. But every time someone talks about being the first, someone else cites an earlier
    invention -- like the pre-war French OS aluminum tubed bike. It must be tough being a patent
    examiner. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  6. Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
    : It must be tough being a patent examiner. -- Jay Beattie.

    actually it's not. prior art to them means an earlier patent. other than that it's up to the courts
    to decide.
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     
  7. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
    > : It must be tough being a patent examiner. -- Jay Beattie.
    >
    > actually it's not. prior art to them means an earlier patent. other than that it's up to the
    > courts to decide.

    It doesn't have to be a patent; just some published work, whether it be an advertisement, research
    paper, speech, or whatever.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  8. On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:26:11 +0000, Marc Rosenbaum wrote:

    > I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my
    > Bachelor's thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube
    > frame, and one-off pedals, hubs, and BB. It was built as a fixed gear bike, and weighs about 13
    > pounds currently. At the time I believe it was the lightest ridable bike in the world (it
    > weighed in at 12 pounds 5 ounces back then, with a different handlebar set-up that was
    > connected to the fork crown).
    >
    > I'm either going to donate the bike to a musuem or sell it, in either case an appraisal would be
    > helpful. It would be helpful to know what cost range I might expect for this service, also.

    You might check with Gary Klein, who was involved in similar things at the 'Tute. I don't know what
    market or other interest there might be for this, but he should. He had built his first bike there
    at around that same time; but you probably know all about that.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The _`\(,_ | common welfare was my
    business; charity, mercy, forbearance, (_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The
    dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
    --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
     
  9. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    David Kerber <[email protected]_ids.net> writes:

    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > : It must be tough being a patent examiner. -- Jay Beattie.
    > >
    > > actually it's not. prior art to them means an earlier patent. other than that it's up to the
    > > courts to decide.
    >
    > It doesn't have to be a patent; just some published work, whether it be an advertisement, research
    > paper, speech, or whatever.

    Yes, but the US patent office notoriously hands out patents without even the most cursory check for
    prior art. The overwhelming majority of US issued patents in my field are for techniques which were
    common practice years before they were patented. In principle of course they could be challenged in
    the courts but in practice small companies can't afford to do this.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; of 90+ years of protection, but a cure for cancer, only 14? -- user 'Tackhead', in /.
    discussion of copyright law, 22/05/02
     
  10. "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Phil Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > >I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my
    > > >Bachelor's thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube
    > > >frame, and one-off pedals, hubs, and BB.
    > >
    > > Is this the same material science class that Gary Klein was in?
    >
    > Hard to believe that this guy beat Gary, at the same school, and that he was not mentioned in
    > Klein v. Cannondale. Also, Bill Shook of American Classic was riding his OS aluminum bike in May
    > of 1974. So, to be the supposed "first" OS aluminum frame, it would have had to be built before
    > then. If the OPs dates are right, however, it is interesting that Gary conceived of his OS
    > aluminum frame in October 1974 and built it in February 1975 -- all of this after the end of the
    > school year in '74. Hmmmm. -- Jay Beattie.

    Hmmmm yourself, Mr. Beattie. Just for the record, not because it relates to the question I asked,
    which was about finding an appraiser, not asking for an appraisal:

    My SB thesis in Mechanical Eng'g at MIT was submitted in May 1974 and is a matter of public record.
    The bike was designed and built over the previous winter and spring. It was the first frame that
    came out of the project that Prof. Shawn Buckley put together with students to construct aluminum
    frames, but it was far more optimized and included custom components that I designed and made also.
    The frame tubes are larger diameter than those frames (and the one that Gary built later) and much
    lighter. My project was inspired by Eddy Merckx's one hour record bike - and it was lighter and much
    stiffer than that bike - it would have weighed about 11 pounds with Merckx's wheels and tires, vs.
    the 13.2 pounds of the record bike.

    There were articles about the bike in Bicycling and Bike world in early 1975.

    I don't know about the Klein vs. Cannondale court case records cited in this thread. I do know I was
    subpoenaed in this case and spent 7 hours in a videotaped deposition. The patent discovery documents
    were full of references to my thesis bike. It took over 7 years for Klein to get his patent - in my
    opinion that was because there was nothing novel about his bike.

    I'm a newbie to news groups. Is it typical for the discussion to immediately veer into off-topic
    speculation rather than address the question asked? Some of the posts remind me of an expression
    from my days at MIT - Often Mistaken But Never In Doubt :)

    If anyone can suggest where I can find a bicycle appraiser I'd be grateful of the assistance.

    Marc Rosenbaum
     
  11. Adam Rush

    Adam Rush Guest

    > > So, to be the supposed "first" OS aluminum frame, it would have had to be built before then.
    >
    > There were "OS" aluminium frames made in France before WWII. Phil Brown

    Is an "OS aluminium" frame like one the 50's Gnôme Rhône that Sheldon had in France? On that note,
    where can you find a Gnôme-Rhône bicycle?
     
  12. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    [email protected] (Marc Rosenbaum) writes:

    > My SB thesis in Mechanical Eng'g at MIT was submitted in May 1974 and is a matter of public
    > record. The bike was designed and built over the previous winter and spring. It was the first
    > frame that came out of the project that Prof. Shawn Buckley put together with students to
    > construct aluminum frames, but it was far more optimized and included custom components that I
    > designed and made also. The frame tubes are larger diameter than those frames (and the one that
    > Gary built later) and much lighter. My project was inspired by Eddy Merckx's one hour record bike
    > - and it was lighter and much stiffer than that bike - it would have weighed about 11 pounds with
    > Merckx's wheels and tires, vs. the 13.2 pounds of the record bike.

    May I be vulgarly curious and ask whether there are any photographs on the Web anywhere? Of your
    bike, I mean?

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; of 90+ years of protection, but a cure for cancer, only 14? -- user 'Tackhead', in /.
    discussion of copyright law, 22/05/02
     
  13. B.C. Cletta

    B.C. Cletta Guest

    [email protected] (Marc Rosenbaum) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my
    > Bachelor's thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube
    > frame, and one-off pedals, hubs, and BB. It was built as a fixed gear bike, and weighs about 13
    > pounds currently. At the time I believe it was the lightest ridable bike in the world (it
    > weighed in at 12 pounds 5 ounces back then, with a different handlebar set-up that was
    > connected to the fork crown).
    >
    > I'm either going to donate the bike to a musuem or sell it, in either case an appraisal would be
    > helpful. It would be helpful to know what cost range I might expect for this service, also.
    >
    > Thanks for any assistance provided.

    these anal wackos (in a nice sorta way) might be able to help you:
    <http://www.classicrendezvous.com/>

    > Marc Rosenbaum

    say, isn't that last name "french"? maybe you sell it to a japanese collector, they love frenchie
    bike stuff ;)
     
  14. [email protected] (Marc Rosenbaum) writes:

    >I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my Bachelor's
    >thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube frame, and one-off
    >pedals, hubs, and BB. It was built as a fixed gear bike, and weighs about 13 pounds currently. At
    >the time I believe it was the lightest ridable bike in the world (it weighed in at 12 pounds 5
    >ounces back then, with a different handlebar set-up that was connected to the fork crown).

    >I'm either going to donate the bike to a musuem or sell it, in either case an appraisal would be
    >helpful. It would be helpful to know what cost range I might expect for this service, also.

    >Thanks for any assistance provided.

    >Marc Rosenbaum Meriden, NH

    I presume you were in the same IAP seminar class as Gary Klein ?? I think you might contact Gary
    Klein since he probably has experience with such questions, having gone commercial with the frame
    that he built.

    - Don Gillies San Diego, CA

    P.S. I saw one of these frames in the basement of building 2, at MIT, in ~1982. It was being used as
    a paperweight.
     
  15. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Jay Beattie wrote:

    > "Phil Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>>I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my
    >>>Bachelor's thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube frame,
    >>>and one-off pedals, hubs, and BB.
    >>
    >>Is this the same material science class that Gary Klein was in?
    >
    >
    > Hard to believe that this guy beat Gary, at the same school, and that he was not mentioned in
    > Klein v. Cannondale. Also, Bill Shook of American Classic was riding his OS aluminum bike in May
    > of 1974. So, to be the supposed "first" OS aluminum frame, it would have had to be built before
    > then. If the OPs dates are right, however, it is interesting that Gary conceived of his OS
    > aluminum frame in October 1974 and built it in February 1975 -- all of this after the end of the
    > school year in '74. Hmmmm. -- Jay Beattie.
    >
    >
    And Harlan Meyer built the oversize aluminum Cosmopolitan, which Rick Ball was racing in 1972, well
    before that.

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  16. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "Marc Rosenbaum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Phil Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > >
    > > > >I'm looking for a recommendation of a person who can appraise the bicycle I built for my
    > > > >Bachelor's thesis at MIT in 1974. It's a one-off - the first large diameter aluminum tube
    > > > >frame, and
    one-off
    > > > >pedals, hubs, and BB.
    > > >
    > > > Is this the same material science class that Gary Klein was in?
    > >
    > > Hard to believe that this guy beat Gary, at the same school, and
    that he
    > > was not mentioned in Klein v. Cannondale. Also, Bill Shook of
    American
    > > Classic was riding his OS aluminum bike in May of 1974. So, to be
    the
    > > supposed "first" OS aluminum frame, it would have had to be built
    before
    > > then. If the OPs dates are right, however, it is interesting that
    Gary
    > > conceived of his OS aluminum frame in October 1974 and built it in February 1975 -- all of this
    > > after the end of the school year in
    '74.
    > > Hmmmm. -- Jay Beattie.
    >
    > Hmmmm yourself, Mr. Beattie. Just for the record, not because it relates to the question I asked,
    > which was about finding an appraiser, not asking for an appraisal:

    I was Hmmming, because Gary claimed that his oversized aluminum tubed bike was the first, which
    seems like quite an outrageous claim if yours was already built -- and at the same school.
    >
    > My SB thesis in Mechanical Eng'g at MIT was submitted in May 1974 and is a matter of public
    > record. The bike was designed and built over the previous winter and spring. It was the first
    > frame that came out of the project that Prof. Shawn Buckley put together with students to
    > construct aluminum frames, but it was far more optimized and included custom components that I
    > designed and made also. The frame tubes are larger diameter than those frames (and the one that
    > Gary built later) and much lighter. My project was inspired by Eddy Merckx's one hour record bike
    > - and it was lighter and much stiffer than that bike - it would have weighed about 11 pounds with
    > Merckx's wheels and tires, vs. the 13.2 pounds of the record bike.
    >
    > There were articles about the bike in Bicycling and Bike world in early 1975.
    >
    > I don't know about the Klein vs. Cannondale court case records cited in this thread. I do know I
    > was subpoenaed in this case and spent 7 hours in a videotaped deposition. The patent discovery
    > documents were full of references to my thesis bike. It took over 7 years for Klein to get his
    > patent - in my opinion that was because there was nothing novel about his bike.
    >
    > I'm a newbie to news groups. Is it typical for the discussion to immediately veer into off-topic
    > speculation rather than address the question asked?

    This is not off topic. You claimed to have a first-of-its-kind, one-off bike. The provenance of your
    bike is what makes it valuable, if it is valuable at all. Otherwise, it is just another home-built
    bike -- and those have a very low resale value, especially if they have non-standard parts and a
    five or six speed drive train. First bikes are also known to break due to over-cooking the joints
    and other beginner's errors. Your bike may have collector's value, but I doubt anyone would buy it
    for reliability or rideability.

    Some of the posts remind me of an expression from my
    > days at MIT - Often Mistaken But Never In Doubt :)

    My information comes from the affidavits filed in Klein v. Cannondale, being that I was not at MIT
    in the '70s. Those records are accurate for what they are, which is limited. I did race for the San
    Jose team in the late '70s, and we were sponsored by Klein -- but Gary never talked to me about
    whether he built the first OS aluminum frame, or about anything for that matter. We mostly laughed
    at the fat-tubed Klein bikes back then and thought that anyone with boron in their stays was a
    sissy. But then, we also were not quite clear on what boron was -- except that Superman did not like
    it, and that it might cause birth defects.

    >
    > If anyone can suggest where I can find a bicycle appraiser I'd be grateful of the assistance.

    The absolute appraiser: E-bay. Frankly, you should see if there is a museum of science and industry
    somewhere that would be interested in it. They will appraise it and give you an appropriate tax
    deduction for the donation. Unless your bike was ridden by someone famous, or you are famous, or
    some component on the bike went into production and is now famous, I doubt that it has any value
    from a collector's standpoint -- certainly not as much value as the steel frame I helped build in
    '76 with custom drill-holes in the lugs. I designed those -- O.K., I ripped them off from Cinelli,
    but mine were cooler than Cinelli's. Drill-holes were as technical as I got, being that I was an
    English major at a crummy state school -- a few classes behind Jim Blackburn, and in a different
    department. But I thought of that rack! -- Jay Beattie.
     
  17. Amit

    Amit Guest

    [email protected] (Marc Rosenbaum) wrote in message

    > I don't know about the Klein vs. Cannondale court case records cited in this thread. I do know I
    > was subpoenaed in this case and spent 7 hours in a videotaped deposition. The patent discovery
    > documents were full of references to my thesis bike. It took over 7 years for Klein to get his
    > patent - in my opinion that was because there was nothing novel about his bike.
    >

    Do you recall what it was that Klein actually patented. I thought he patented the very idea of a
    Bicycle frame which exceeded certain stiffness criteria regardless of material (a "high efficiency"
    frame if you will), not the idea of an oversize aluminum frame.

    -Amit
     
  18. Marc Rosenbaum wrote:

    > I'm a newbie to news groups. Is it typical for the discussion to immediately veer into off-topic
    > speculation rather than address the question asked? Some of the posts remind me of an expression
    > from my days at MIT - Often Mistaken But Never In Doubt :)

    Since you asked: If that was an expression was used at MIT in the 70's it was probably because
    that mentality is common to more than just newsgroups. Welcome to the results of our public
    education system.

    Shayne Wissler
     
  19. Ken

    Ken Guest

    > I'm a newbie to news groups. Is it typical for the discussion to immediately veer into off-topic
    > speculation rather than address the question asked? Some of the posts remind me of an expression
    > from my days at MIT - Often Mistaken But Never In Doubt :)
    >
    > If anyone can suggest where I can find a bicycle appraiser I'd be grateful of the assistance.
    >
    > Marc Rosenbaum

    Marc,

    What's it worth? Who knows. Put it up on Ebay and you'll get the appraisal that that market has to
    offer. You may also try other markets such as rec.bicycles.marketplace and get its appraisal. Or you
    might take it to the bicycle show held once a year in Las Vegas and see what happens. Anyway, those
    are my ideas.

    Kenny Lee
     
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