Bicycle Licencing AGAIN

Discussion in 'rec.bicycles.soc archive' started by Claire Petersky, Jun 7, 2003.

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  2. Ken -Lsqny)

    Ken -Lsqny) Guest

    On 7 Jun 2003 06:18:18 -0700, [email protected] (Claire Petersky) ranted:

    >Here's the article, along with a lot of motorist wingeing about bicycles:

    Thank you for posting that. Very interesting. As a former cop, I especially was interested
    in this question/answer:

    Q. If bicycles are legal vehicles and cyclists have a right to the road, why are they not stopped
    and ticketed for infractions like running stop signs?

    R. King County Sheriff's Sgt. Kevin Fagerstrom admits that law-breaking cyclists are less likely to
    get pulled over than stop-sign-running drivers. "It's prioritization of work on the part of the
    police," he said. "Bicycles do not portray a great risk to the motor vehicles as far as injury."
    Fagerstrom did agree that writing a cyclist a ticket now could prevent a major accident in the
    future, but going after vehicular violations is a bigger priority for law enforcement. That being
    said, he's pulled over cyclists before and will do it again.

    I was not a prolific ticket-writer mainly because I worked a very busy precinct, didn't
    enjoy doing it, and I am lazy. But I too used to write cyclists for some of the more
    dangerous offenses such as running red lights, stop signs etc. That began when I covered an
    accident in about 1970 or so, where a 16 year old girl had gone through a stop sign without
    stopping and was struck by a car. When I arrived, I pushed through the crowd and stooped
    down to check her injuries while waiting for the ambulance. She was responsive and didn't
    seem to be in much pain. I saw that someone's leg was next to her face and pushed it to make
    the person move out of the way, then realized it was her own leg. I still can see it. Did I
    write her? No, and I don't think anyone would blame me for not putting a ticket on her tummy
    in the ambulance. She and her parents had enough to worry about. But afterward, I made sure
    to ticket serious bike violations, despite the head shaking of my fellow officers.

    Why would a municipality want to license bikes except as yet another tax so they can spend
    more of our money? I can't imagine another reason since in almost 34 years of police work, I
    don't remember a single incident where a licensed bike would have helped do anything. In
    fact, it is so stupid, I guess New York will be looking into it eventually. Sincerely, Ken
    (NY) Chairman, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bureau, Department Of Redundancy Department
    ____________________________________
    email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

    "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that
    is." -- Vice President Al Gore

    S: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
    T: Telling your parents you’re gay.
     
  3. user

    user Guest

    Ken [NY) wrote:
    >
    > Thank you for posting that. Very interesting. As a former cop, I especially was interested
    > in this question/answer:
    >
    > Q. If bicycles are legal vehicles and cyclists have a right to the road, why are they not stopped
    > and ticketed for infractions like running stop signs?

    When I ride, I dont always carry my drivers license on me. I may have no ID on me whatsoever. So if
    a cop wants to ticket me, will he haul me to the station?

    Thanks

    Florin
     
  4. H. M. Leary

    H. M. Leary Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    > Ken [NY) wrote:
    > >
    > > Thank you for posting that. Very interesting. As a former cop, I especially was interested
    > > in this question/answer:
    > >
    > > Q. If bicycles are legal vehicles and cyclists have a right to the road, why are they not
    > > stopped and ticketed for infractions like running stop signs?
    >
    >
    > When I ride, I dont always carry my drivers license on me. I may have no ID on me whatsoever. So
    > if a cop wants to ticket me, will he haul me to the station?
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > Florin
    >
    >
    >

    A duly constituted law enforcement officer has the right to demand identification,and you must
    produce it.

    If they take you to the station, someone will have to bring the proper forms of id to identify you,
    be it a passport, birth certificate or drivers liscense.

    Under the Patriot Act, be aware that you can be held for 72 hours until you have the right to your
    phone call.

    You should always carry some form of ID so that the Coroner knows how to identify you when you
    become a hood ornament.

    HAND - don't drown - ride Safe

    --
    "Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

    - Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution
     
  5. user

    user Guest

    H. M. Leary wrote:

    > A duly constituted law enforcement officer has the right to demand identification,and you must
    > produce it.

    *Only* if you break the law. Also, unless you drive on a public road you dont have to carry your
    "papers" on you. It is not the Soviet Union (yet), you know.

    > Under the Patriot Act, be aware that you can be held for 72 hours until you have the right to your
    > phone call.

    Utter nonsense. You may be held like that only if you are suspected of being a terrorist.

    Florin
     
  6. H. M. Leary

    H. M. Leary Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    > H. M. Leary wrote:
    >
    > > A duly constituted law enforcement officer has the right to demand identification,and you must
    > > produce it.
    >
    > *Only* if you break the law. Also, unless you drive on a public road you dont have to carry your
    > "papers" on you. It is not the Soviet Union (yet), you know.
    >
    He/she only needs probable cause

    > > Under the Patriot Act, be aware that you can be held for 72 hours until you have the right to
    > > your phone call.
    >
    > Utter nonsense. You may be held like that only if you are suspected of being a terrorist.
    >
    You want to argue that with your friendly sheriff??

    Enough said, please

    --
    "Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

    - Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution
     
  7. Mitch Haley

    Mitch Haley Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > Utter nonsense. You may be held like that only if you are suspected of being a terrorist.

    And guess who gets to decide what he/she "suspects"? You've just stated one of the better reasons
    for demanding the public execution of every jackass who voted for that bill after taking an oath to
    observe the Constitution, BTW.

    Mitch.
     
  8. Ken -Lsqny)

    Ken -Lsqny) Guest

    On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 17:44:49 GMT, [email protected] ranted:

    >Ken [NY) wrote:
    >>
    >> Thank you for posting that. Very interesting. As a former cop, I especially was interested
    >> in this question/answer:
    >>
    >> Q. If bicycles are legal vehicles and cyclists have a right to the road, why are they not
    >> stopped and ticketed for infractions like running stop signs?
    >
    >
    >When I ride, I dont always carry my drivers license on me. I may have no ID on me whatsoever. So if
    >a cop wants to ticket me, will he haul me to the station?

    Yep.

    Ken (NY) Chairman, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bureau, Department Of Redundancy Department
    ____________________________________
    email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

    "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that
    is." -- Vice President Al Gore

    Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
    R: Telling your parents you’re gay.
     
  9. Joe

    Joe Guest

    Never carry your drivers license when biking. If the Police stop you for a Traffic Infraction they
    have the right to see a valid ID prior to issuing a summons. If you give them your Drivers License
    they will put your license number on the ticket and it will end up on your driving record. Carry
    your passport or some other government issued picture ID instead of your 'Motor Vehicle' license.

    On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 17:44:49 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >Ken [NY) wrote:
    >>
    >> Thank you for posting that. Very interesting. As a former cop, I especially was interested
    >> in this question/answer:
    >>
    >> Q. If bicycles are legal vehicles and cyclists have a right to the road, why are they not
    >> stopped and ticketed for infractions like running stop signs?
    >
    >
    >When I ride, I dont always carry my drivers license on me. I may have no ID on me whatsoever. So if
    >a cop wants to ticket me, will he haul me to the station?
    >
    >Thanks
    >
    >Florin
     
  10. [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > H. M. Leary wrote:
    >
    > > A duly constituted law enforcement officer has the right to demand identification,and you must
    > > produce it.
    >
    > *Only* if you break the law. Also, unless you drive on a public road you dont have to carry your
    > "papers" on you. It is not the Soviet Union (yet), you know.
    >
    > > Under the Patriot Act, be aware that you can be held for 72 hours until you have the right to
    > > your phone call.
    >
    > Utter nonsense. You may be held like that only if you are suspected of being a terrorist.

    Perhaps having a swarthy complexion would be enough in some communities. Or perhaps being engaged in
    some suspicious activity, like riding a bicycle when we all know all Red Blooded Americans only
    drive cars.

    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky ([email protected]) Home of the meditative cyclist:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm Singing with you at: http://www.tiferet.net/ Books
    just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky
     
  11. Dashi Toshii

    Dashi Toshii Guest

    "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > H. M. Leary wrote:
    > >
    > > > A duly constituted law enforcement officer has the right to demand identification,and you must
    > > > produce it.
    > >
    > > *Only* if you break the law. Also, unless you drive on a public road you dont have to carry your
    > > "papers" on you. It is not the Soviet Union (yet), you know.
    > >
    > > > Under the Patriot Act, be aware that you can be held for 72 hours
    until you have
    > > > the right to your phone call.
    > >
    > > Utter nonsense. You may be held like that only if you are suspected of being a terrorist.
    >
    > Perhaps having a swarthy complexion would be enough in some communities. Or perhaps being engaged
    > in some suspicious activity, like riding a bicycle when we all know all Red Blooded Americans only
    > drive cars.
    >
    > Warm Regards,

    Terrorists don't let friends ride bicycles! You know that Claire. ;-)

    Dashii
     
  12. Joe

    Joe Guest

    I think the point is being missed. A police officer is asking for ID because he is issuing you a
    citation for a violation he believes you committed - not because he thinks you're a terrorist, are
    swarthy or engaged in some suspicious activity.

    If he didn't have a right to see a valid ID then John Smith of 1 Any Street, Anytown would sure as
    hell get a lot of summons'.

    This is true now, it was true before the Patriot Act and it was even true before there were Autos.
    So how about not making a conspiracy out of a normal and reasonable procedure. I would even suggest
    that climbing on a political soap box in response to a legitimate question in a Bike Group is not
    really necessary.

    On 9 Jun 2003 06:34:00 -0700, [email protected] (Claire Petersky) wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >> H. M. Leary wrote:
    >>
    >> > A duly constituted law enforcement officer has the right to demand identification,and you must
    >> > produce it.
    >>
    >> *Only* if you break the law. Also, unless you drive on a public road you dont have to carry your
    >> "papers" on you. It is not the Soviet Union (yet), you know.
    >>
    >> > Under the Patriot Act, be aware that you can be held for 72 hours until you have the right to
    >> > your phone call.
    >>
    >> Utter nonsense. You may be held like that only if you are suspected of being a terrorist.
    >
    >Perhaps having a swarthy complexion would be enough in some communities. Or perhaps being engaged
    >in some suspicious activity, like riding a bicycle when we all know all Red Blooded Americans only
    >drive cars.
    >
    >Warm Regards,
    >
    >
    >Claire Petersky ([email protected]) Home of the meditative cyclist:
    >http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm Singing with you at: http://www.tiferet.net/ Books
    >just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky
     
  13. Ken -Lsqny)

    Ken -Lsqny) Guest

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:58:35 GMT, Joe <[email protected]> ranted:

    >Never carry your drivers license when biking. If the Police stop you for a Traffic Infraction they
    >have the right to see a valid ID prior to issuing a summons. If you give them your Drivers License
    >they will put your license number on the ticket and it will end up on your driving record. Carry
    >your passport or some other government issued picture ID instead of your 'Motor Vehicle' license.

    Problem is, it won't work. The officer has a duty to determine your correct name, DOB and
    legal address, and write that on the ticket and information stub. Then, all the court has to
    do is punch in your name, DOB and address into the DMV computer, and guess what comes up?
    Nice try though. Don't feel too bad, people come up with that theory all the time and all it
    results in is someone spending some extra time sharing coffee and donuts with the local
    cops. Which isn't all that bad, believe me. We're really nice people. Cheers, Ken (NY)
    Chairman, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bureau, Department Of Redundancy Department
    ____________________________________
    email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

    Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles before; I have no doubt
    he would use them again if permitted to develop them. --Bill Clinton, December 17, 1998

    We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
    country. --Albert Gore, 23 September 2001
    Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
    R: Telling your parents you’re gay.
     
  14. Joe

    Joe Guest

    I disagree in your conclusion. I agree that the issuing officer has a duty to determine correct
    name, address, et. whenever a summons is being issued and regardless of what the violation is.
    People are issued summons' for everything from unleashed dogs to jaywalking. Many people,
    particularly in NYC, don't have 'Motor' vehicle Licenses. and there is no 'Requirement' that an ID
    be a "Motor' Vehicle License. A Passport meets the ID requirement just as well as a Motor Vehicle
    License everywhere in the US. So he can and does issue a summons, you will not be detained pending
    identification and you get to go home and buy your own Donuts.

    As for Court Punching in Information to "DMV" (Department of 'Motor' Vehicles), for what purpose
    since you were not operating a 'Motor' vehicle and you have not committed a 'Motor' Vehicle
    violation. The court has no more reason to feed it to DMV for the biker then it would for the dog
    walker. In short the only time it could or would end up at DMV is if someone fills in a operators
    license number on the summons which cause it to be flagged by the computer system and sent there by
    mistake. Then it is hell to get it out. Don't give a 'Motor' Vehicle License when being issued a
    summons for a 'NON-Motor' Vehicle violation and that mistake won't happen.
    ---
    Joe

    On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:43:57 -0400, "Ken [NY)" <[email protected]_text> wrote:

    >On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:58:35 GMT, Joe <[email protected]> ranted:
    >
    >>Never carry your drivers license when biking. If the Police stop you for a Traffic Infraction they
    >>have the right to see a valid ID prior to issuing a summons. If you give them your Drivers License
    >>they will put your license number on the ticket and it will end up on your driving record. Carry
    >>your passport or some other government issued picture ID instead of your 'Motor Vehicle' license.
    >
    > Problem is, it won't work. The officer has a duty to determine your correct name, DOB and
    > legal address, and write that on the ticket and information stub. Then, all the court has to
    > do is punch in your name, DOB and address into the DMV computer, and guess what comes up?
    > Nice try though. Don't feel too bad, people come up with that theory all the time and all it
    > results in is someone spending some extra time sharing coffee and donuts with the local
    > cops. Which isn't all that bad, believe me. We're really nice people. Cheers, Ken (NY)
    > Chairman, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bureau, Department Of Redundancy Department
    >____________________________________
    >email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm
    >
    >Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles before; I have no doubt
    >he would use them again if permitted to develop them. --Bill Clinton, December 17, 1998
    >
    >We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
    >country. --Albert Gore, 23 September 2001
    >Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
    >A: Telling your parents you’re gay.
     
  15. Jef

    Jef Guest

    The COP said: > Problem is, it won't work. The officer has a duty to determine
    > your correct name, DOB and legal address, and write that on the ticket and information stub. Then,
    > all the court has to do is punch in your name, DOB and address into the DMV computer, and guess
    > what comes up?

    No, really, a passport works just fine. I racked up about $200 in bicycle violations (what can I
    say? I'm a radical). All these were given as I showed a driver's license. A while down the road,
    after issuance of a bench warrant, I get stopped for a bicycle violation and show a passport (with a
    different address). Cop runs it, then writes me a warning about locking my bike up, we joke for a
    while about how we've each had bikes stolen ... I ride home.

    So ... the lesson is, get a passport, then move. The passport is good for a decade, so it'll never
    seem weird that your offical ID has an address in a different state. -me
     
  16. Thus said "Jef" <[email protected]>:
    >So ... the lesson is, get a passport, then move. The passport is good for a decade, so it'll never
    >seem weird that your offical ID has an address in a different state.

    US passports don't have addresses in them. I suspect other nations' don't either, but don't have
    firsthand experience.
     
  17. Scott Eiler

    Scott Eiler Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, the robotic servitors of [email protected]
    (Marc VanHeyningen) rose up with the following chant:
    >Thus said "Jef" <[email protected]>:
    >>So ... the lesson is, get a passport, then move. The passport is good for a decade, so it'll never
    >>seem weird that your offical ID has an address in a different state.
    >
    >US passports don't have addresses in them. I suspect other nations' don't either, but don't have
    >firsthand experience.

    US passports do have addresses in them, but only if you write them in yourself. I suspect that if
    you don't, they're not really valid ID. And I've had a chance to find out; that story ends with a
    cop saying, "Well, here in Iowa, when we ask for ID, we mean your driver's license."

    -------- Scott Eiler B{D> -------- http://www.eilertech.com/ --------

    "We have more than enough people in this world, so adding children to it is about as much of a
    contribution as donating a box of cereal to the Kellogg's company!" -- Bill, from the Cyber-Church
    of Jesus Christ Childfree.
     
  18. Ken -Lsqny)

    Ken -Lsqny) Guest

    On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:23:16 GMT, Joe <[email protected]> ranted:

    >I disagree in your conclusion. I agree that the issuing officer has a duty to determine correct
    >name, address, et. whenever a summons is being issued and regardless of what the violation is.
    >People are issued summons' for everything from unleashed dogs to jaywalking. Many people,
    >particularly in NYC, don't have 'Motor' vehicle Licenses. and there is no 'Requirement' that an ID
    >be a "Motor' Vehicle License. A Passport meets the ID requirement just as well as a Motor Vehicle
    >License everywhere in the US. So he can and does issue a summons, you will not be detained pending
    >identification and you get to go home and buy your own Donuts.

    Joe, I agree and never said you must submit a motor vehicle license to a police officer when
    stopped on a bike. I mistakingly thought you were saying that it would be better not to
    offer any ID at all. Hence the donut break with the cops.

    >As for Court Punching in Information to "DMV" (Department of 'Motor' Vehicles), for what purpose
    >since you were not operating a 'Motor' vehicle and you have not committed a 'Motor' Vehicle
    >violation. The court has no more reason to feed it to DMV for the biker then it would for the dog
    >walker. In short the only time it could or would end up at DMV is if someone fills in a operators
    >license number on the summons which cause it to be flagged by the computer system and sent there by
    >mistake. Then it is hell to get it out. Don't give a 'Motor' Vehicle License when being issued a
    >summons for a 'NON-Motor' Vehicle violation and that mistake won't happen.

    All of the NY bike violations - not including local ordinances of course - are state vehicle
    and traffic laws. Blowing past a stop sign in a car is a violation of section 1110, V&T.
    Blowing past a stop sign on a bike or in-line skates is a violation of the same section
    because they too are vehicles under Section 1231:

    S 1110. Obedience to and required traffic-control devices. (a) Every person shall obey the
    instructions of any official traffic-control device applicable to him placed in accordance with the
    provisions of this chapter, unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, subject to
    the exceptions granted the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle in this title.

    S 1231. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates. Every
    person riding a bicycle or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall be granted all
    of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by
    this title, except as to special regulations in this article and except as to those provisions of
    this title which by their nature can have no application. http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=128

    Again, if you want to offer the cop a passport, you will still get the ticket and it will go
    to traffic court. And it will go on your driving record if you are convicted. Cordially, Ken
    (NY) Chairman, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bureau, Department Of Redundancy Department
    ____________________________________
    email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

    Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles before; I have no doubt
    he would use them again if permitted to develop them. --Bill Clinton, December 17, 1998

    We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
    country. --Albert Gore, 23 September 2001
    Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
    R: Telling your parents you’re gay.
     
  19. Joe

    Joe Guest

    Ken, I agree with everything you said up to last sentence (Below). And I disagree with it as
    follows: While it is the same traffic violation under the NY State V&T. It is not a Motor Vehicle
    traffic violation and it does not go on your Motor Vehicle License ("Driving Record"). Example:
    Jaywalking is a violation of the NY V&T and it has nothing to do with the DMV. DMV regulates the
    Operation of Motor Vehicles, License. Registration, Permits, Inspections, etc. They don't enforce or
    regulate traffic laws. State V&T Law regulates traffic and it is that law that assigns points for
    various 'Motor' vehicle violations and requires them to be reported to DMV. Purpose to remove the
    Motor Vehicle License of frequent traffic law violators. There are no points for running a stop sign
    on a bike, there is no Bike License to take, and DMV has NO regulatory authority over bikes.
    Therefore there is nothing to report. BUT if your Driver ID number is on the ticket, and the
    violation is listed as say a stop sign (Same V&T code) no one is going to read the description of
    the "Vehicle" to see if it was a Ford or a Cannondale. That is the reason I say don't use your
    license for ID.
    ---
    Joe

    On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:35:59 -0400, "Ken [NY)" <[email protected]_text> wrote:

    you will still
    >get the ticket and it will go to traffic court. And it will go on your driving record if you are
    >convicted. Cordially, Ken (NY) Chairman, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Bureau, Department Of
    >Redundancy Department
    >____________________________________
    >email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm
    >
    >Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles before; I have no doubt
    >he would use them again if permitted to develop them. --Bill Clinton, December 17, 1998
    >
    >We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
    >country. --Albert Gore, 23 September 2001
    >Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
    >A: Telling your parents you’re gay.
     
  20. Marc VanHeyningen wrote:

    > Thus said "Jef" <[email protected]>:
    > >So ... the lesson is, get a passport, then move. The passport is good for a decade, so it'll
    > >never seem weird that your offical ID has an address in a different state.
    >
    > US passports don't have addresses in them. I suspect other nations' don't either, but don't have
    > firsthand experience.

    German once certainly have, they even have fields for adress changes. And, technically, you are
    obliged to have such changes recorded.
     
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