Bicycle riders will get more respect once they start obeying the laws that govern them.

[David Phillips]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:00:55 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>David Phillips wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:11:00 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
>
>>>So, the attitude of some farm tractor drivers is, 'I have as much right
>>>to a lane on the road as any other vehicle and if the cars behind me do
>>>not like driving 15 mph, tough ass, I am within the law'.
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>
>>
>> A considerate tractor driver will periodically pull over to the side
>> when it's safe, and traffic has started to back up behind the tractor,
>> esp. on a road with few passing opportunities.
>>
>> I've yet to encounter a gaggle of bicyclists out on similar roads,
>> riding to take up the entire lane, that will do anything to help cars
>> behind THEM get past.
>
>So if there were a "gaggle" of farm tractors they would all pull
>entirely off the road to let backing up traffic pass. I think not.

It would seem you're being deliberately obtuse. A single farm tractor
takes up fair amount of space on the road, and is traveling slowing.

A gaggle of cyclists takes up space similar to the space taken by a
single farm tractor.

Far too many cycling groups on the back roads of western Wake County &
eastern Chatham behave as if the road was their own possession, and
make NO effort to cooperate with motor vehicles.

>
>>
>> I have no problem with the concept of sharing the road with slower
>> vehicles, including bicyclists.
>
>What is your concept of sharing the road with slower vehicles? How
>exactly do you share?
>
>>
>> I have the utmost contempt for those rude operators, of any type of
>> vehicle, that do not cooperate with other operators.
>
>Bicyclists "cooperate" with other operators almost all the time by
>letting those other operators pass in the bicyclist's lane. So quit
>whining about the very few times that they don't let motorists use their
>lane. There is no advantage to bicyclists for having motorists pass in
>their lane.

In my experience, it's almost never. Large groups of cyclists will do
NOTHING to help a faster vehicle overtake them safely, even when that
vehicle approached the group safely, at a moderate rate, and stays
back at a safe distance.

The few cyclists that cooperate to get me past their group get passed
with a wide berth, at a moderate overtaking rate.

Most of the groups get a downshift into the powerband, full throttle,
and the absolute minimum clearance as I go buy. If that puts their
hearts in their throats, good.

 

[mal]

Come on Geoff. Of course you have a bug up your ass. You found a newsgroup
on cycling and decided to poke fun, because one day you got stuck behind a
nike rider.

Who cares? I'm a social rider and a full time driver. All of us here are. I
have probably driven more miles than you, and been stuck behind, and besides
bigger arseholes than you have. People who have never ridden a bike. Thinkg
is though, there are some drivers who through their driving and passive
aggressive attitudes, kill people.

So cut your passive aggressive **** out out.

If you want to come on here and flame, think about going somewhere else
where it may contribute something. Go rail on the paedaphile page.

I hate those pricks.

 

[mal]

Geoff, we understand.

You're are surely not the biggest ******** out here.


"geoff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:gB%[email protected]...
>> When we have to deal with sanctimonious hostile motorists, on the bike or
>> on the keyboard, we get hostile.
>
> Actually, at this point, you're tiresome. You name call, state how you
> think things should be, and tough ass for anyone else.
>
> Have a 'joyful' life.
>
> -g
>
>

 

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 9:19 am, "me" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Killfiles are for pussies. --D-y
>
> Ya know ***** you are right about that one. plonk.

You misunderstood.

Anyhow, hey, I read your profile.

"Medicines for Shingles"?

Explains a lot.

--D-y

 

[Wayne Pein]

David Phillips wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:00:55 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
> wrote:

>>
>>So if there were a "gaggle" of farm tractors they would all pull
>>entirely off the road to let backing up traffic pass. I think not.
>
>
> It would seem you're being deliberately obtuse. A single farm tractor
> takes up fair amount of space on the road, and is traveling slowing.
>
> A gaggle of cyclists takes up space similar to the space taken by a
> single farm tractor.
>
> Far too many cycling groups on the back roads of western Wake County &
> eastern Chatham behave as if the road was their own possession, and
> make NO effort to cooperate with motor vehicles.


You don't seem to understand, it IS their own possession.



>
>
>>>I have no problem with the concept of sharing the road with slower
>>>vehicles, including bicyclists.
>>
>>What is your concept of sharing the road with slower vehicles? How
>>exactly do you share?
>>
>>
>>>I have the utmost contempt for those rude operators, of any type of
>>>vehicle, that do not cooperate with other operators.
>>
>>Bicyclists "cooperate" with other operators almost all the time by
>>letting those other operators pass in the bicyclist's lane. So quit
>>whining about the very few times that they don't let motorists use their
>>lane. There is no advantage to bicyclists for having motorists pass in
>>their lane.
>
>
> In my experience, it's almost never. Large groups of cyclists will do
> NOTHING to help a faster vehicle overtake them safely, even when that
> vehicle approached the group safely, at a moderate rate, and stays
> back at a safe distance.



>
> The few cyclists that cooperate to get me past their group get passed
> with a wide berth, at a moderate overtaking rate.

There is nothing they can do short of pulling completely off the road
and that simply is not going to happen. Going single file makes the
passing distance longer and more dangerous. Just because you allegedly
pass cautiously doesn't mean all motorists do.


>
> Most of the groups get a downshift into the powerband, full throttle,
> and the absolute minimum clearance as I go buy. If that puts their
> hearts in their throats, good.

Thanks for indicting yourself. See, many motorists do this, whether
bicyclists "cooperate" (ie let motorists use their lane) or not. So,
there is no point in "cooperating." Bullies behind the wheel are a dime
a dozen.

Wayne

 

[Pudentame]

David Phillips wrote:

>
> It would seem you're being deliberately obtuse. A single farm tractor
> takes up fair amount of space on the road, and is traveling slowing.
>
> A gaggle of cyclists takes up space similar to the space taken by a
> single farm tractor.
>
> Far too many cycling groups on the back roads of western Wake County &
> eastern Chatham behave as if the road was their own possession, and
> make NO effort to cooperate with motor vehicles.

OTOH, a single farm tractor will continue to block the road until it
comes to a place where it can pull off, IF the operator will pull off;
something they won't *ALWAYS* do. I've been stuck behind plows, harrows
& tobacco cultivators many a time on US 421, and had to follow all the
way from Clinton to Spivey's Corners, waiting for my turn to reach the
front of the pack where I could attempt to pass.

Even if the operator would, that farm tractor cannot move into a single
file that allows other traffic to safely pass; something I frequently
see occur with "gaggles of cyclists".

 

[Tom Kunich]

"me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Daniel Patrick Moynahan used to say "everyone is entitled to their own
> opinions, but not their own facts". In that spirit and after all of this
> noise and combative rhetoric in this thread, I looked up the statistics on
> bicycle vs. motor vehicle accidents from the NCDoT at
> http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/pbcat/bike_main.htm
>
> Lo and behold it was exactly as I thought, for the period 1997 to 2005
> (this is all of the stats I could find, and would welcome the addition of
> 2006 & 2007 data) It was more than twice as likely that the bicyclist was
> deemed at fault as the motorist, in fact adding up all the causes other
> than bicyclist at fault did not add up to half of the total accidents:
>
> Bicyclist at fault - 4583
> Both at Fault - 1229
> Fault Cannot be Determined - 292
> Motorist at Fault - 2000
> Neither at Fault - 38
> Unknown - 744
> Total - 8886
>
> So sorry bicyclists, *you* are the cause of most of the motor
> vehicle/bicycle problems in this state (and I suspect most, if not all
> others). I think it would be prudent and reasonable to take stock of your
> behaviours and maybe buy some extra insurance based on these facts.

So let me understand you here - _I'm_ at fault because you looked up a
statistic that mostly describes collisions at driveways in nighborhoods
involving almost all children?

It isn't any surprise that you believe that making up your own facts seems
to suit you.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Stefan Wolfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Roger Connor <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> First of all, how is this thread related to heraldry (I'm reading
>>> Rec.heraldry) and why was it cross posted?
>>
>> You can trace the References: headers back to the
>> source. Need I do everything for you? Okay, here it is.
>> <[email protected]>
>>
>> Now take it up there and stop whining.
>
> What the hell is heraldry anyway?

It has to do with people who want to tell themselves they're important
because some far distant relative was important.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"David Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> A considerate tractor driver will periodically pull over to the side
> when it's safe, and traffic has started to back up behind the tractor,
> esp. on a road with few passing opportunities.

A combine takes the entire road and cannot pull over. In the Dakotas a
Real(tm) combine can take up a 4-lane road.

> I've yet to encounter a gaggle of bicyclists out on similar roads,
> riding to take up the entire lane, that will do anything to help cars
> behind THEM get past.

Yeah, sure. 40 people riding single file down a narrow road. Maybe they
ought to stop and hold their bicycles over the edge of the road so that you
can pass without wasting maybe 30 seconds.

> I have no problem with the concept of sharing the road with slower
> vehicles, including bicyclists.
>
> I have the utmost contempt for those rude operators, of any type of
> vehicle, that do not cooperate with other operators.

My guess is that you have never ever pulled over to let a faster vehicle
pass.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"David Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> In my experience, it's almost never. Large groups of cyclists will do
> NOTHING to help a faster vehicle overtake them safely, even when that
> vehicle approached the group safely, at a moderate rate, and stays
> back at a safe distance.

Funny, I used to ride Highway 1 all the time and you know what? I never saw
the operator of a motor home ever pull over even once in many years. While
riding Highway 1 on a bicycle I have been held up plenty by motor homes. The
roads are narrow north of San Francisco and the turns are sharp and are
usually followed by a short climb. A good cyclist can outrun the motor homes
but they cannot get past and if they do on the next flat the motor homes
always pass much too closely only to have to slow for the next turn.

But wait - there are motorhomes out on the roads slowing everyone else down
every single day. My guess is that you have been slowed down very slightly
by bicyclists less than a dozen times in your entire life.

That's why people like you shouldn't be allowed to live.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> geoff wrote:
>
>>>When we have to deal with sanctimonious hostile motorists, on the bike or
>>>on the keyboard, we get hostile.
>>
>>
>> Actually, at this point, you're tiresome. You name call, state how you
>> think things should be, and tough ass for anyone else.
>>
>> Have a 'joyful' life.
>>
>
> You, among others, start the hostilites by telling bicyclists how we do
> things wrong, and expect us to acquiese under your ignorance of the law.

Cowards are all the same. My guess is that he is extremely agressive towards
cyclists on the road. Hopefully he'll forget that he just buzzed one and
will pull into a gas station close enough for them to catch up.

Funny story - I was riding with two cops, a retired CSI operative, a retired
fireman and a judge when some jackass buzzed us in front of a working cop
and then claimed that we were hogging the road when he was pulled over. He
didn't fair too well with that argument.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Stefan Wolfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You are doing a good job of explaining these joys in this thread. I can
> tell you are a joyful person. The 'joy' you think you are experiencing
> comes from the biological release of norepinephrine, a natural narcotic
> experienced by joggers and others partaking in medium to high levels of
> muscular exertion. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine

You really are whacked out aren't you? In the first place wikipedia in
wrong - it takes level 4 or 5 exertion to cause such a release from fit
athletes. Secondly, these are EXACTLY the same chemicals released when you
do hard manual labor. Maybe you ought to explain to us how running on a
treadmill is the same as doing a days work on the loading dock?

And finally, people who don't know anything about cycling seem to have a
great deal to say about it. For instance, the miserable worthless bastards
want to proclaim ALL cyclists sinners because someone at some point in your
life delayed you for 2 seconds. And it is unusual for cyclists to delay
anyone on the road for more than a couple of seconds at the most. Even
drivers on roads where a Century is being held and hundreds of cycles are
using that road are seldom delayed for as much as 5 minutes over 25 or more
miles.

So I find you idiots laughable, stupid and in need of a good ass kicking.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> While off work I was doing a ride out to Moraga every Tuesday. Going down
>> little Pinehurst towards Canyon I used to drop the cars who thought that
>> they were too powerful to "wait" behind a bicycle. On one corner there's
>> a
>> large Redwood growing up the shoulder adjacent to the road. Since there's
>> a
>> sharp right turn past that huge tree even the Ferraris tend to slow below
>> the speed of a cyclist.
>
> There are two redwood tree right-handers; virtual
> twins. I would like to do that descent without using
> brakes. It's the left-handers uphill of the redwoods
> that are problematic. The redwoods are easily
> negotiated full throttle, as they have good camber. The
> lefties do not.

I can only remember the one turn that has a redwood right on the edge of the
road. I cut that corner so that sometime I have to twist my head and
shoulder to keep from hitting the trunk. I think that I have many times
ridden down without using the brakes though I don't do that much any more.
There's getting to be too much traffic on it for one thing. And for another,
if there's been mist on the hills there might be slimy leaves on the road.

 

[David Phillips]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:28:28 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

>"David Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> A considerate tractor driver will periodically pull over to the side
>> when it's safe, and traffic has started to back up behind the tractor,
>> esp. on a road with few passing opportunities.
>
>A combine takes the entire road and cannot pull over. In the Dakotas a
>Real(tm) combine can take up a 4-lane road.
>
>> I've yet to encounter a gaggle of bicyclists out on similar roads,
>> riding to take up the entire lane, that will do anything to help cars
>> behind THEM get past.
>
>Yeah, sure. 40 people riding single file down a narrow road. Maybe they
>ought to stop and hold their bicycles over the edge of the road so that you
>can pass without wasting maybe 30 seconds.

If they were riding single file, I'd have no issue, and would give
them a wide berth.

I would also expect, if such a single file group was reasonable and
cooperative, as I prefer to be, for them to separate some to help me
get by. If they did that, I would move from gap to gap at a fairly
slow relative speed, and even maintaining their speed in between
groups if the situation warranted.

If I get a little cooperation from cyclists, they get it back in turn.

What I would encounter in the Jordan Lake area of Chatham & western
Wake counties were large group of cyclists taking up the road from
shoulder to center line, and making NO effort to help me get past
them.

Those groups get a down shift into second gear, a side-stepped clutch,
and a rapid overtake in our travel lane before I move out to pass
close by.
>
>> I have no problem with the concept of sharing the road with slower
>> vehicles, including bicyclists.
>>
>> I have the utmost contempt for those rude operators, of any type of
>> vehicle, that do not cooperate with other operators.
>
>My guess is that you have never ever pulled over to let a faster vehicle
>pass.

You would guess incorrectly, however, on a two lane country road,
there are NO faster vehicles than I, unless they're well in excess of
the speed limit.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Yeah, that's right! When bicyclists adhere to the rules of the road
>> here in NC, like they are supposed to, that is when you will probably
>> see people be a bit more tolerant of them.
>
> Well thanks for straightening us out on that one. Now, how do we get
> drivers to do the same thing? Those 37 000 vehicular deaths a year on US
> roads are a little embarrassing, don't you think.

Phil, to be fair, I had some cycling friends who had to move to NC for a
couple of years and they told me that the clubs there would take up the
whole road and ride slowly and not pull over to allow traffic to pass all
the time.

Now nevertheless there are seldom roads in which a driver would be held us
as much as 30 seconds behind such a group and what we're seeing here is some
mentally disturbed people crying that they could drive any speed they wanted
for a couple of seconds because of someone they feel should have shivered in
fear from their obvious superior strength - meaning weight of metal.

In my estimation we should hunt down these sorts of people are put them in
state run mental facilities to determine why they would develop such anger
at people who aren't frightened by them.

 

[David Phillips]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:34:00 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

>"David Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> In my experience, it's almost never. Large groups of cyclists will do
>> NOTHING to help a faster vehicle overtake them safely, even when that
>> vehicle approached the group safely, at a moderate rate, and stays
>> back at a safe distance.
>
>Funny, I used to ride Highway 1 all the time and you know what? I never saw
>the operator of a motor home ever pull over even once in many years. While
>riding Highway 1 on a bicycle I have been held up plenty by motor homes. The
>roads are narrow north of San Francisco and the turns are sharp and are
>usually followed by a short climb. A good cyclist can outrun the motor homes
>but they cannot get past and if they do on the next flat the motor homes
>always pass much too closely only to have to slow for the next turn.

No where in any of my posts have I written that rude behavior by motor
home drivers was excusable.

I have seen motor home drivers pull over for groups of cars.

>But wait - there are motorhomes out on the roads slowing everyone else down
>every single day. My guess is that you have been slowed down very slightly
>by bicyclists less than a dozen times in your entire life.

Again, you guess wrong.
>
>That's why people like you shouldn't be allowed to live.

Nice threat. It's folks like you that give cyclists a bad name.

You've also failed to comprehend what I've written previously. I
gladly share the road with cyclists that will help me get past them on
narrow roads.

I have the utmost contempt of vehicle operators that will deliberately
impede traffic.

 

[David Phillips]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:14:04 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>David Phillips wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:00:55 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>So if there were a "gaggle" of farm tractors they would all pull
>>>entirely off the road to let backing up traffic pass. I think not.
>>
>>
>> It would seem you're being deliberately obtuse. A single farm tractor
>> takes up fair amount of space on the road, and is traveling slowing.
>>
>> A gaggle of cyclists takes up space similar to the space taken by a
>> single farm tractor.
>>
>> Far too many cycling groups on the back roads of western Wake County &
>> eastern Chatham behave as if the road was their own possession, and
>> make NO effort to cooperate with motor vehicles.
>
>
>You don't seem to understand, it IS their own possession.

No more, or less, than it is mine.

If you want to share the road, you must *SHARE* the road.

>>
>>>>I have no problem with the concept of sharing the road with slower
>>>>vehicles, including bicyclists.
>>>
>>>What is your concept of sharing the road with slower vehicles? How
>>>exactly do you share?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have the utmost contempt for those rude operators, of any type of
>>>>vehicle, that do not cooperate with other operators.
>>>
>>>Bicyclists "cooperate" with other operators almost all the time by
>>>letting those other operators pass in the bicyclist's lane. So quit
>>>whining about the very few times that they don't let motorists use their
>>>lane. There is no advantage to bicyclists for having motorists pass in
>>>their lane.
>>
>>
>> In my experience, it's almost never. Large groups of cyclists will do
>> NOTHING to help a faster vehicle overtake them safely, even when that
>> vehicle approached the group safely, at a moderate rate, and stays
>> back at a safe distance.
>
>
>
>>
>> The few cyclists that cooperate to get me past their group get passed
>> with a wide berth, at a moderate overtaking rate.
>
>There is nothing they can do short of pulling completely off the road
>and that simply is not going to happen. Going single file makes the
>passing distance longer and more dangerous.

Only if they keep the group completely intact. Break into smaller
groups of single file, and I'll be able to get by with no fuss to
either of us.

> Just because you allegedly
>pass cautiously doesn't mean all motorists do.
>
>
>>
>> Most of the groups get a downshift into the powerband, full throttle,
>> and the absolute minimum clearance as I go buy. If that puts their
>> hearts in their throats, good.
>
>Thanks for indicting yourself. See, many motorists do this, whether
>bicyclists "cooperate" (ie let motorists use their lane) or not. So,
>there is no point in "cooperating." Bullies behind the wheel are a dime
>a dozen.

As are bullies on bicycles. You're attempting to bully automobiles by
impeding their progress.
>
>Wayne
>
>
>
>

 

[Wayne Pein]

David Phillips wrote:

> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:14:04 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
> wrote:

>>You don't seem to understand, it IS their own possession.
>
>
> No more, or less, than it is mine.
>
> If you want to share the road, you must *SHARE* the road.

Huh? Your conception of *share* the road is for you to use MY lane.
What's in it for me? What if I don't want to share my lane with you? Do
you share your lane with beer trucks?

Last I checked, even large groups of bicyclists only used one lane.


>>
>>There is nothing they can do short of pulling completely off the road
>>and that simply is not going to happen. Going single file makes the
>>passing distance longer and more dangerous.

>
>
> Only if they keep the group completely intact. Break into smaller
> groups of single file, and I'll be able to get by with no fuss to
> either of us.

So, the bicyclists who are out for a group ride to enjoy themselves by
talking to each other and enjoying the dynamics of group riding should
sacrifice the reason they are riding so that you can pass in their lane?

Hahahahaha.

>
>
>>Just because you allegedly
>>pass cautiously doesn't mean all motorists do.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Most of the groups get a downshift into the powerband, full throttle,
>>>and the absolute minimum clearance as I go buy. If that puts their
>>>hearts in their throats, good.
>>
>>Thanks for indicting yourself. See, many motorists do this, whether
>>bicyclists "cooperate" (ie let motorists use their lane) or not. So,
>>there is no point in "cooperating." Bullies behind the wheel are a dime
>>a dozen.
>
>
> As are bullies on bicycles. You're attempting to bully automobiles by
> impeding their progress.

Do stopped transit busses bully car drivers too?

No, you are too self and car centric. The bicyclists are riding because
they like to ride. That some motorists may be delayed for a spell is an
unfortunate consequence of that, much like a gaggle of hockey, football,
concert, or other fans who cause others delay when they descend all at
once to a venue.

If you don't like going bicyclists' speed for a spell, change lanes and
pass. If there is oncoming traffic, don't change lanes. Blame your delay
on the oncoming traffic.

Wayne

 

[Wayne Pein]

David Phillips wrote:


>
> You've also failed to comprehend what I've written previously. I
> gladly share the road with cyclists that will help me get past them on
> narrow roads.

And again I directly ask you what your concept of share is? What are you
giving up?

If I share my baloney sandwich with you, what do you share of yours with me?


>
> I have the utmost contempt of vehicle operators that will deliberately
> impede traffic.

Bicyclists do not impede traffic; they are exempt by NC law. Only motor
vehicles which have the capability of faster speed can purposefully and
illegally slow to impede traffic.

Wayne

 

[Wayne Pein]

David Phillips wrote:


> What I would encounter in the Jordan Lake area of Chatham & western
> Wake counties were large group of cyclists taking up the road from
> shoulder to center line, and making NO effort to help me get past
> them.
>
> Those groups get a down shift into second gear, a side-stepped clutch,
> and a rapid overtake in our travel lane before I move out to pass
> close by.
>

What a man!

And you get high blood pressure, car wear and tear, increased fuel use,
and the satisfaction that you're a sheep in wolf's clothing.

And guess what? It's not OUR (meaning yours and the bicyclists) travel
lane when you pass bicyclists within it. It's the bicyclists' lane that
you have purposely encroached into.

Wayne