"BICYCLE super-stations 4 Melb CBD"

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by flyingdutch, Nov 20, 2005.

  1. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    Not sure if "I'm allowed to comment on such things now???"
    but here'tis anyway...

    http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17308681%255E2862,00.html

    Euro-style plan for bicycle city
    John Ferguson
    21nov05

    BICYCLE super-stations and key changes to traffic flows are part of a controversial $10 million plan to bring European-style commuting to Melbourne.

    Riders will be able to park, shower and even drink coffee at cafes attached to several major bike stations dotted across the city.
    Melbourne City Council is also backing sweeping changes to bike paths to make commuting safer.

    Councillor Peter Clarke wants expanded a push to create Copenhagen-style bike paths into the CBD.

    These paths involve placing physical barriers between riders and motor vehicles.

    Parked cars can be shifted further into the roadway to enable bikes to travel protected, next to the gutter.

    This option will alter traffic flows in some areas, with the trade-off being increased safety to riders and pedestrians.

    Cr Clarke said a key part of his vision involved building several bike super-stations where riders could shower, store their bike and even drink coffee.

    Areas that could be used for the super-stations include the Docklands, the vaults under Federation Square, the city baths and in the parliamentary precinct.

    "You could have a proper shower, treat these places like a small lounge," Cr Clarke said.

    He said the strategy -- which would require initial funding of $2 million a year -- was not anti-car.

    "Far from it. It's not about impeding vehicles, it's about providing a viable alternative," Cr Clarke said.

    Thousands of cyclists commute to the city each day but rising numbers of motor vehicles throughout Melbourne are making the trips increasingly perilous.

    The City of Melbourne has already supported a limited trial of a safer bike path, between Melbourne University and RMIT.

    But Cr Clarke has outlined up to 12 major bike routes into the city that he believes need further attention.

    St Kilda Rd is one of the key roads that feeds cyclists into the streets of the CBD.

    He described commuting along Flinders St as being particularly dangerous for cyclists.

    Lord Mayor John So is also backing the new deal for cyclists, saying the idea of super-stations was gleaned from Copenhagen.

    Cr So said that cycling was an essential part of the council's transport strategy.

    The council was eager to considerably increase bicycle use in the city.

    "I don't see why the Copenhagen model can't be adopted in Melbourne," he said.

    In Copenhagen, visitors or residents are also able to take part in a free bike exchange where they pay a small price to borrow a bike, with the fee refunded when the bike is returned.

    Bicycle Victoria's Sean Pinan said for a relatively small investment, commuters could be encouraged to ride if the facilities were user-friendly.

    BV has backed the use of the Government's controversial congestion tax to help pay for the $15 million it believes is needed to implement a rider-friendly strategy for the CBD.

    Cr Clarke said the tax had made no difference to city congestion.

    "This is about dealing with the problem, not taxing people," he said.
     
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  2. cfsmtb

    cfsmtb New Member

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    Fascinating, considering how a certain Victorian-based non-competitive bicycle advocacy organisation initially criticised the concept. Brilliant to realise this plan is now attaining a mainstream acceptance. But, alas I'm not convinced about the Copenhagen-style bike paths, for reasons many of us would agree with.
     
  3. ritcho

    ritcho New Member

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    Bicycle lanes in the gutter, with parked cars on the right? That is very dangerous... We already have a network that is ideal for bicycles, it's called the road system. Admittedly, it has been totally clogged through congestion from motor vehicles, but there is no reason that their use of the road system can't be reduced in a sensible way.

    And another thing - we wouldn't need 'super stations' with showers if more employers fitted showers in the workplace (like mine has).

    Ritch
     
  4. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    cfsmtb wrote:
    > flyingdutch Wrote:
    > > Not sure if "I'm allowed to comment on such things now???"
    > > but here'tis anyway...

    >
    >
    > Fascinating, considering how a certain Victorian-based non-competitive
    > bicycle advocacy organisation initially criticised the concept.
    > Brilliant to realise this plan is now attaining a mainstream
    > acceptance. But, alas I'm not convinced about the Copenhagen-style bike
    > paths, for reasons many of us would agree with.


    Maybe FD's making a difference already :)

    A lot of the plan sounds good.
     
  5. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    Well no one here's going to stop you so that just leaves, can't speak for the almighty BV though can we? ;-)

    This is great news. Another excuse for not using a bicycle to travel in to the city for social reasons (dinner, theater, shopping) goes up in smoke.

    The proposed bike lanes will make cycling more difficult for experienced cyclists who know what they're doing. If the gap between the parked cars and the pavement is to small cyclists will be forced to permamently ride in the door zone. The most common cyclists - car accident in the the city is getting doored. What a fantastic design.

    Even if the lanes are wide enough to avoid dooring being a problem you're then faced with the issue of intersections. Cyclists may well be obscured from view at intersections by parked vehiciles. Another great idea.

    And let's not forget all the debris and crap that will get accumulated in the bike lane. They'll have to be swept every day in order to stay useable.

    Then add in the social engineering problems, the whole segregation issue. This sort of thing advances the message that cyclists need special provisions to use the roads. That's bollocks.

    The money would be far better used in educating cyclists in how to ride safely. I see far too many cyclists riding in the gutter because they think that's the right thing to do, busting red lights 'cause they think they can get away with it and generally behaving so erratically that it's impossible to predict what they're going to do next.

    Cycling in the city is safe if you know what you're doing, let's concentrate more on personal accountability instead of blaming infrastructure that is more than adequate.
     
  6. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    Not everyone who travels to the city does so for work reasons.
     
  7. cfsmtb

    cfsmtb New Member

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    *Ahem* Yes, there's many pubs in the CBD. Funny that.

    cfs "kicked hard by goats & grappa" mtb
     
  8. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    Got up about 1000. Wasn't functional until 1400. Very gentle pootle in to Cheltenham for brunch and blue shwalbes :)
     
  9. Marx SS

    Marx SS New Member

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    It does capitalise on a commuting segment which currently has no direct facilities (read: income stream) provided from the local government or businesses [aside from employers to their staff].

    I suppose nothing comes for free, but it does seem like a good approach to get the cycling commuter-community to be more inclined to pay for facilities, especially if they can have a coffee in café-like surroundings.
    Next might be VIP service/storage & then footpaths in the CBD can be freed up by sign posting ‘no bicycles’.

    As for the Copenhagen-style bike lanes, well, this ain’t Copenhagen. There are a number of Melbourne bicycle commuters travel quite a distance compared to Europeans to get to/from work (hands up who commutes 30kms+ per day). There aren’t that many Baguettes-in-baskets meandering home @ 10kms/hr.

    Everything else sounds OK though…..
     
  10. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2005-11-20, EuanB (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    > cfsmtb Wrote:
    >> *Ahem* Yes, there's many pubs in the CBD. Funny that.
    >>
    >> cfs "kicked hard by goats & grappa" mtb


    Grappa? Ewwww!

    > Got up about 1000. Wasn't functional until 1400. Very gentle pootle
    > in to Cheltenham for brunch and blue shwalbes :)


    Did I miss out on a hard night out at the Goat?

    --
    TimC
    Error in operator: add beer
     
  11. EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
    > The proposed bike lanes will make cycling more difficult for
    > experienced cyclists who know what they're doing. If the gap between
    > the parked cars and the pavement is to small cyclists will be forced to
    > permamently ride in the door zone. The most common cyclists - car
    > accident in the the city is getting doored. What a fantastic design.
    >
    > Even if the lanes are wide enough to avoid dooring being a problem
    > you're then faced with the issue of intersections. Cyclists may well be
    > obscured from view at intersections by parked vehiciles. Another great
    > idea.
    >
    > And let's not forget all the debris and crap that will get accumulated
    > in the bike lane. They'll have to be swept every day in order to stay
    > useable.
    >
    > Then add in the social engineering problems, the whole segregation
    > issue. This sort of thing advances the message that cyclists need
    > special provisions to use the roads. That's bollocks.
    >
    > The money would be far better used in educating cyclists in how to
    > ride safely. I see far too many cyclists riding in the gutter because
    > they think that's the right thing to do, busting red lights 'cause they
    > think they can get away with it and generally behaving so erratically
    > that it's impossible to predict what they're going to do next.
    >
    > Cycling in the city is safe if you know what you're doing, let's
    > concentrate more on personal accountability instead of blaming
    > infrastructure that is more than adequate.


    I felt the same way when I first read about these Copenhagen bike lanes
    a couple of months back, but if you have a look at the video at
    http://www.vejpark.kk.dk/byenstrafik/cyklernesby/uk/ you'll see that
    they are quite acceptable for most cyclists. I think the reason why they
    seem to work in Copenhagen is that there is a commitment to continuous
    improvement.

    Peter

    --
    Peter McCallum
    Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
     
  12. till!

    till! New Member

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    Ahuh, like woodside here in Perth. Rumour has it their new building has bike parking facilities for a few hundred bikes underneath, as well as showers etc. Woodside used to have some tasty deal for their employees where they bought them a commuter, helmet lights pumps *whatever*, and if they made a mileage target, they got to keep their bikes.

    till
     
  13. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    I've seen that video, notice how many cyclists there are? That's what makes it a workable solution. Not the facilities themselves.

    People in Copenhagen expect to see cyclists on their near side and behave accordingly. People in Melbourne do not.
     
  14. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    EuanB wrote:

    > I've seen that video, notice how many cyclists there are? That's what
    > makes it a workable solution. Not the facilities themselves.
    >
    > People in Copenhagen expect to see cyclists on their near side and
    > behave accordingly. People in Melbourne do not.


    While personally I don't want to be stuck in a plodders lane, I can see
    (after watching that video) that for slow commuters, it's a workable
    idea.

    You're implying above that because something is not expected that it
    can't be. That's demonstrably false. What people expect can be
    changed. No-one used to expect booze busses on freeways or speed
    cameras on suburban arterials either. 100 years ago no-one expected
    cars on our roads.
     
  15. LotteBum

    LotteBum New Member

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    Marx SS wrote:

    As for the Copenhagen-style bike lanes, well, this ain’t Copenhagen. There are a number of Melbourne bicycle commuters travel quite a distance compared to Europeans to get to/from work (hands up who commutes 30kms+ per day). There aren’t that many Baguettes-in-baskets meandering home @ 10kms/hr.

    Agreed. I think bike lanes are a great idea, but I also believe that the main key to this problem is education.

    I'm sick and tired of hearing about motorcyclists being the most underrepresented statistics on the roads. Well, there'd be a good reason for that - too many of them ride like knobs and surely, they're the ones that (mostly) get killed (I'm sure there are exceptions, the same way there are for cyclists etc). Even when I ride my scooter home, I find myself being overtaken on the left - in the same lane - by motorcyclists who MUST ride at 90 - 100km/h in a 60 zone on the left of cars (clever!).

    I am of the opinion that a campaign to get people riding bikes and to encourage the general public to have some respect for cyclists is long overdue. That's not to say that motor cyclists don't deserve respect on the roads, but they DO still use fuel and I'm 100% sure they don't receive the same amount of disrespect on the roads as do cyclists. I feel extremely safe on my scooter purely because I am used to not feeling all that safe on my bike.

    It's time we stop following in America's footsteps and following in the steps of developed countries who seem to know what they're doing.

    LotteSoapBoxBum
     
  16. EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Peter McCallum Wrote:
    > >
    > > I felt the same way when I first read about these Copenhagen bike
    > > lanes
    > > a couple of months back, but if you have a look at the video at
    > > http://www.vejpark.kk.dk/byenstrafik/cyklernesby/uk/ you'll see that
    > > they are quite acceptable for most cyclists. I think the reason why
    > > they
    > > seem to work in Copenhagen is that there is a commitment to continuous
    > > improvement.
    > >

    >
    > I've seen that video, notice how many cyclists there are? That's what
    > makes it a workable solution. Not the facilities themselves.
    >
    > People in Copenhagen expect to see cyclists on their near side and
    > behave accordingly. People in Melbourne do not.


    Provide good quality faciliites and you'll get a lot more cyclists.
    Melbourne shows this. Compared with Sydney, it's much more comfortable
    travelling into the city, so you have a lot more cyclists commuting in
    Melbourne.

    Peter
    --
    Peter McCallum
    Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
     
  17. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    I'm implying nothing of the sort. I've stated what is and isn't, not what may or may not be. If they were crystal and not pink and hairy I'd be a lot better off financially than I am now.
     
  18. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    EuanB wrote:
    > Bleve Wrote:
    > > EuanB wrote:
    > >
    > > > People in Copenhagen expect to see cyclists on their near side and
    > > > behave accordingly. People in Melbourne do not.

    > >
    > > You're implying above that because something is not expected that it
    > > can't be.
    > >

    > I'm implying nothing of the sort. I've stated what is and isn't, not
    > what may or may not be. If they were crystal and not pink and hairy
    > I'd be a lot better off financially than I am now.


    heh, fairy snuff :)
     
  19. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

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    Well that's the billion dollar question isn't it? What makes good quality facilities? I'd suggest that faciliities which does not protect against the most common hazard a cyclist faces in an urban environment is not a good facility.

    Fact is that collisions with same direction traffic is one of the rarest accidents to befall a cyclist. The Copenhagen solution is one which is targetted at the percieved dangers of cycling, not the real ones.

    That in itself may not be a bad thing if it gets more people cycling. More people cycling means that more people expect and know how to deal with cyclists. It may be worth the trade off in short term safety to achieve a higher level of safety through greater cycling numbers.

    I maintain that the real issue here is educating cyclists in how to share the road. Far too many have no clue whatsoever.
     
  20. EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Peter McCallum Wrote:
    > >
    > > Provide good quality faciliites and you'll get a lot more cyclists.
    > >

    > Well that's the billion dollar question isn't it? What makes good
    > quality facilities? I'd suggest that faciliities which does not
    > protect against the most common hazard a cyclist faces in an urban
    > environment is not a good facility.
    >
    > Fact is that collisions with same direction traffic is one of the
    > rarest accidents to befall a cyclist. The Copenhagen solution is one
    > which is targetted at the percieved dangers of cycling, not the real
    > ones.
    >
    > That in itself may not be a bad thing if it gets more people cycling.
    > More people cycling means that more people expect and know how to deal
    > with cyclists. It may be worth the trade off in short term safety to
    > achieve a higher level of safety through greater cycling numbers.
    >
    > I maintain that the real issue here is educating cyclists in how to
    > share the road. Far too many have no clue whatsoever.


    Given that Copenhagen achieved a 50 per cent reduction in cyclist
    accident risks in a six year period, then they must be doing something
    correct.

    Generally, I think that most people don't want to cycle at more than
    about 20-25km/h and they don't want to have to dress up to go cycling.
    They just want to hop on the bike and ride it to their destination in
    comfort and with a perception of safety.

    We all know that cycling is relatively safe compared to other activities
    such as gardening or home renovation, but ask the average person and
    they'll tell you cycling is definitely unsafe. I think that if you
    provide people with facilities that provide a perception of safety, then
    engineer safety into them, you'll achieve a great outcome.

    The main thing that the Copenhagen people seem to be doing is commiting
    resources to continuously improving facilities and the perception of
    them.

    Peter

    --
    Peter McCallum
    Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
     
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