Bicyclist killed by woman driver who was downloading cell phone ring tones

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 00:47:23 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Mother Earth News costs $10 per year:
> >
> >http://www.motherearthnews.com
> >
> >The cost of a computer, a telephone/dsl/cable connection to the
> >internet, and the electric bill for running it all is an order of
> >magnitude greater.
>
> Two orders of magnitude, really, to not be working with decrepit old
> machines failing at random times.

Oh, I dunno. I've got a Rev B iMac that is 8 years old and works very
reliably, having served for years as a Web server and as a print server
on my home LAN. It could easily be my only computer if I didn't need a
laptop for work.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Martin Borsje <[email protected]> wrote:

> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Yarper" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Clear and obvious guilt. Result? A slap on the wrist, due directly
> >> to Democratic State Attorney Julia Reitz, who ironically is listed
> >> as working for a personal-injury law firm.
> >
> > Is her political affiliation somehow relevant?
> >
> >> What we need in the USA is separate bicycle lanes, like they have
> >> throughout Denmark and parts of Holland.
> >
> > What Denmark and Holland have is a population that uses bikes in
> > large numbers. That's what makes the difference. Separate bikes
> > lanes are frequently more dangerous than riding on the roads.
>
> the issue in the Netherlands is that you really have a problem when
> you kill a cyclist by ignorance

And in many other places as well. The theory in the U.S. is that
everyone is treated equally in courts of law (of course it's really not
the case), so that negligently killing a cyclist is no different from
negligently killing a pedestrian or driver. U.S. courts also recognize
the possibility of contributory negligence on the part of the victim,
such as riding a bike at night in dark clothing with no lights or
reflectors. From what little I know of the case here, there was no
contributory negligence on the part of the cyclist who was killed.

It does seem that the prosecuting attorney made a very poor choice in
her choice of prosecution. Under U.S. law, the driver cannot be tried a
second time for the same crime.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Robert Coe <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 21:40:01 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> : In article <[email protected]>,
> : [email protected] wrote:
> :
> : > On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 03:07:36 GMT, "nash"
> : > <[email protected]> wrote:
> : >
> : > >Sorry that was suppose to 100/ day. no need to go postal now
> : > >
> : > >peace
> : >
> : > Dear Nash,
> : >
> : > Nothing postal, just basic arithmetic.
> : >
> : > There are not 100 bicyclists with head injuries every day in "any
> : > Chinese city."
> : >
> : > 365 x 100 = 36,500 head injuries per year in "any Chinese city."
> :
> : Not to mention that there are hundreds of Chinese cities, if not
> : thousands (depending on how one defines "city"). Goiing with
> : "hundred" and "thousand" we get a national incidence of:
> :
> : 36,500 x 100 = 3,650,000 per year.
> :
> : 36,500 x 1,000 = 36,500,000 per year.
> :
> : If this was the case, then the Chinese population would be
> : decimated annually by bicycling-related head injuries. I would
> : think that such injury rates would provoke some sort of
> : governmental or societal response to reduce the risk.
>
> Well, "decimated" may be a bit too strong a term. It means "reduced
> by 90%". The carnage you describe, even using the more lurid of your
> calculations, amounts to approximately .03%. The Chinese population
> is pretty large.

Erm, no. It means to reduce by 10% in its original usage:

"ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin decimat- 'taken as a tenth,'
from the verb decimare, from decimus 'tenth.' In Middle English the
term decimation denoted the levying of a tithe, and later the tax
imposed in England by Cromwell on the Royalists (1655). The verb
decimate originally alluded to the Roman punishment of executing one
man in ten of a mutinous legion.

"USAGE Historically, the meaning of the word decimate is 'kill one in
every ten of (a group of people).' This sense has been superseded by
the later, more general sense 'kill or destroy a large percentage or
part of,' as in: the virus has decimated the population. Some
traditionalists argue that this and other later senses are incorrect,
but it is clear that these extended senses are now part of standard
English. It is sometimes also argued that decimate should refer to
people and not to things or animals such as weeds or insects. It is
generally agreed that decimate should not be used to mean 'defeat
utterly.'"

 

[nash]

SO
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 03:11:14 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>As Frank Krygowski keeps pointing out, bicycling is a remarkably safe
>>activity for the general population.
>>
>>Carl,
>>I was talking about Dave's Reckoning and comparing it to China which I
>>still
>>think is true. no laws or signs just common sense
>
> Dear Nash,
>
> To jog your memory, here's your entire post:
>
> "Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
> injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
> knowledge. Anyone?"
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

 

[nash]

>>?>>> It does seem that the prosecuting attorney made a very poor choice in
> her choice of prosecution. Under U.S. law, the driver cannot be tried a
> second time for the same crime.

Seems to me like they made a very poor choice of careers!

 

[nash]

>
>
>>Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
>>injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
>>knowledge. Anyone?
>>
>
> a) you must be new here - claiming such a patently ridiculous
> statistic to be true without any proof is only employed by trolls and
> pro-helmet zealots; and
>
> b) "common knowledge" isn't either.

Google search 3rd entry
In Beijing, China, bicycle traffic constitutes more than 50% of passenger
transportation and more than 30% of traffic accident fatalities. Nearly 70%
of the traffic accidents were related to bicycles. The rate of fatalities
for bicyclists 60 and older is five times greater than the average. Farmers
have the greatest number of bicycle incidents. The peak hour for bicycle
accidents is usually 7:00 to 8:00 a.m., depending on the bicycle and
motorized vehicle traffic flows. Monday is the peak day for bicycle
accidents. It was also found that more bicycle accidents happened in July,
which is Beijing's tourism season. Generally speaking, roads and streets
with higher speed limits, such as arterials and rural highways, have higher
rates of bicycle accident fatalities. Bicycle accidents can be attributed to
many causes, including road and environmental conditions, traffic safety
measures, operations of motorized vehicles, and bicyclists' habits and
skills. The most pressing factor contributing to bicycle accidents is the
inadequate and insufficient facilities provided for bicyclists. To reduce
the annual toll of bicyclist injuries and fatalities, a number of
countermeasures, such as improvement of road and environmental conditions,
education in traffic laws, training in cycling, and use of helmet, are
recommended.

whole document here
http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=451894

50% of population ride to work in Beijing
that enough for you citers.

 

[nash]

>
>
>>Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
>>injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
>>knowledge. Anyone?
>>
>
> a) you must be new here - claiming such a patently ridiculous
> statistic to be true without any proof is only employed by trolls and
> pro-helmet zealots; and
>
> b) "common knowledge" isn't either.

here is another from J. Hopkins U.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1380951

I could go on.

 

[John Everett]

On 1 Dec 2006 12:55:12 -0800, "Yarper" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Clear and obvious guilt. Result? A slap on the wrist, due directly
>to Democratic State Attorney Julia Reitz, who ironically is listed as
>working for a personal-injury law firm.
>
>http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2006/11/30/woman_is_sentenced_for_bicyclists_death

Note that this took place in Illinois, which has a history of
discounting the rights of cyclists. Note that the State's Attorney in
defending her decision to not press for a more serious charge said,
"...the driver could have no reasonable expectation of a bike on the
side of the road."

If you want another prime example of Illinois' official attitude with
respect to cyclists, do a Google search for "Boub Decision".

John Everett - Aurora, Illinois



jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] writes:
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:12:33 -0800, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Subscribing to a newsgroup is cheaper than subscribing
>>to Mother Earth News.
>>
>>cheers,
>> Tom
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> Mother Earth News costs $10 per year:
>
> http://www.motherearthnews.com
>
> The cost of a computer, a telephone/dsl/cable connection to the
> internet, and the electric bill for running it all is an order of
> magnitude greater.

Not necessarily.
Heat, electricity & phone are all included in my $350/month rent
($325 in the summer, when the heat is off.) My current computer
was given to me by my SIL; my peripherals range from 9 to 13
years old. I have a dialup account with my local FreeNet. It's
adequate for UseNet access, email and occasional WWW research.

> Of course, you can use the public library computers, but the library
> usually has Mother Earth News for free, too.

One can also read MEN articles online, as well as other online
info (admittedly of varying verity and usefulness.)


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
John Everett <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 1 Dec 2006 12:55:12 -0800, "Yarper" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Clear and obvious guilt. Result? A slap on the wrist, due directly
> >to Democratic State Attorney Julia Reitz, who ironically is listed
> >as working for a personal-injury law firm.
> >
> >http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2006/11/30/woman_is_sentenced_
> >for_bicy clists_death
>
> Note that this took place in Illinois, which has a history of
> discounting the rights of cyclists. Note that the State's Attorney in
> defending her decision to not press for a more serious charge said,
> "...the driver could have no reasonable expectation of a bike on the
> side of the road."
>
> If you want another prime example of Illinois' official attitude with
> respect to cyclists, do a Google search for "Boub Decision".


You mean the one that could be read as saying that bicyclists don't have
the right to ride on the roads?

 

[nash]

The J Hopkins document shows autos caused 63% of the accidents and bicyclist
the rest.
Most were farmers on bikes
Just read it for your own sake. Ignore the helmut and environmental
conditions summary prescribed by JHopkins

 

[nash]

"Boub Decision".

Sure is!

 

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:43:53 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>SO
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 03:11:14 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>As Frank Krygowski keeps pointing out, bicycling is a remarkably safe
>>>activity for the general population.
>>>
>>>Carl,
>>>I was talking about Dave's Reckoning and comparing it to China which I
>>>still
>>>think is true. no laws or signs just common sense
>>
>> Dear Nash,
>>
>> To jog your memory, here's your entire post:
>>
>> "Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
>> injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
>> knowledge. Anyone?"
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel

Dear Nash,

A fairly predictable descent from arrogant ignorance to silly evasions
and self-contradictions and finally to the bottom of a childish
barrel.

Amusingly, much of the audience won't even know what your "SO" meant.

Come back when you learn how to work a four-function calculator. The
illiteracy and mis-spelling are acceptable, but you really can't
expect to post numeric nonsense on a technical group without having
your errors pointed out.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:04:01 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>>
>>
>>>Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
>>>injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
>>>knowledge. Anyone?
>>>
>>
>> a) you must be new here - claiming such a patently ridiculous
>> statistic to be true without any proof is only employed by trolls and
>> pro-helmet zealots; and
>>
>> b) "common knowledge" isn't either.
>
>Google search 3rd entry
>In Beijing, China, bicycle traffic constitutes more than 50% of passenger
>transportation and more than 30% of traffic accident fatalities. Nearly 70%
>of the traffic accidents were related to bicycles. The rate of fatalities
>for bicyclists 60 and older is five times greater than the average. Farmers
>have the greatest number of bicycle incidents. The peak hour for bicycle
>accidents is usually 7:00 to 8:00 a.m., depending on the bicycle and
>motorized vehicle traffic flows. Monday is the peak day for bicycle
>accidents. It was also found that more bicycle accidents happened in July,
>which is Beijing's tourism season. Generally speaking, roads and streets
>with higher speed limits, such as arterials and rural highways, have higher
>rates of bicycle accident fatalities. Bicycle accidents can be attributed to
>many causes, including road and environmental conditions, traffic safety
>measures, operations of motorized vehicles, and bicyclists' habits and
>skills. The most pressing factor contributing to bicycle accidents is the
>inadequate and insufficient facilities provided for bicyclists. To reduce
>the annual toll of bicyclist injuries and fatalities, a number of
>countermeasures, such as improvement of road and environmental conditions,
>education in traffic laws, training in cycling, and use of helmet, are
>recommended.
>
>whole document here
>http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=451894
>
>50% of population ride to work in Beijing
>that enough for you citers.
>
Dear Nash,

Er, no.

No number in your citation addresses your "100's of head injuries
everyday in any Chinese city" claim. Those are all percentages of some
unknown number of accidents.

But it's good to see that you've changed your mind about citations and
started looking at reality to see if it corresponds to what you claim.
It isn't so much whether you're right or wrong about a particular
matter--it's getting into the habit of looking into things.

I'd be pleased if you find evidence that I'm mistaken in thinking that
you're off by an order of magnitude or so and that hundreds of
bicyclists suffer head injuries every day in any Chinese city.

But a quick google doesn't suggest that's the case:

"We are fortunate to have an in-depth report for China where bicycle
related deaths kill 22 per 1,000,000 per year [18]."

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1379660

So in a Chinese city with a million people, there would be only 22
deaths per 365 x 100 = 36,500 head injuries. (Of course, those are 22
"bicycle-related" deaths and thus include a fair number of pedestrians
struck and killed by bicycles.)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

Johnny Sunset wrote:
>
>
> The prevalence of the automatic transmission is one of the reasons why
> US society is in decline.

As we all know, it's also why the Roman Empire fell.

;-)

- Frank Krygowski

 

[RLB]

"Yarper" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Clear and obvious guilt. Result? A slap on the wrist,
> due directly to Democratic State Attorney Julia Reitz,
> who ironically is listed as working for a personal-injury law firm.
>
> http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2006/11/30/woman_is_sentenced_fo
> r_bicyclists_death
>
> What we need in the USA is separate bicycle lanes, like
> they have throughout Denmark and parts of Holland.
>
This particular stretch of road does have a full-width shoulder.
The area is dead flat with excellent visibility.
Which makes the driver's antics and crime all the more
questionable. Distracted driver laws are inadequate.

 

[[email protected]]

Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> Cell phones are intended to be used while driving. You can tell this by
> the fact that coverage in almost all US metropolitan areas is excellent
> on highways and spotty to poor more than 1/4 away from highways. In the
> Twin Cities metro are there are many, many coverage holes and my phone
> (Sprint) is frequently unusable on surface streets and in neighborhoods.

Very interesting - and infuriating - point. I hadn't thought of that.

> Not that talking on a cell phone and driving is a good idea. A dozen
> times a day or more I see people driving neglectfully while talking on
> cell phones- all of them probably thinking they are driving fine. NO
> ONE drives safely while talking on a cell phone, and hands free phones
> don't help much if at all. If you think you can drive safely while
> you're talking on your cell phone, you are delusional.

I agree.

Since this is a tech group: I'd love to see a portable device that
would deactivate or jam every cell phone within, say, 100 feet of my
bike.

Hmm. Maybe replace the caller's voice with "Watch out for the bike!
Watch out for the bike!" repeated over and over!

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Robert Coe]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:04:01 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]> wrote:
: whole document here
: http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=451894
:
: 50% of population ride to work in Beijing
: that enough for you citers.

Damn! I actually learned something in this, er, discussion. Who knew that the
disparaging term for people who ask for proof of a windy assertion is
"citers"? :^)

 

[Robert Coe]

: >>Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
: >>injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
: >>knowledge. Anyone?
: >>
: >
: > a) you must be new here - claiming such a patently ridiculous
: > statistic to be true without any proof is only employed by trolls and
: > pro-helmet zealots; and
: >
: > b) "common knowledge" isn't either.
:
: here is another from J. Hopkins U.
: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1380951
:
: I could go on.

We'll forgive you if you don't.

 

[nash]

I did not say deaths. grow up

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:04:01 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sure Dave and that is why any Chinese city has 100's of cyclist head
>>>>injuries everyday of the year. Do not citation me I know it as common
>>>>knowledge. Anyone?
>>>>
>>>
>>> a) you must be new here - claiming such a patently ridiculous
>>> statistic to be true without any proof is only employed by trolls and
>>> pro-helmet zealots; and
>>>
>>> b) "common knowledge" isn't either.
>>
>>Google search 3rd entry
>>In Beijing, China, bicycle traffic constitutes more than 50% of passenger
>>transportation and more than 30% of traffic accident fatalities. Nearly
>>70%
>>of the traffic accidents were related to bicycles. The rate of fatalities
>>for bicyclists 60 and older is five times greater than the average.
>>Farmers
>>have the greatest number of bicycle incidents. The peak hour for bicycle
>>accidents is usually 7:00 to 8:00 a.m., depending on the bicycle and
>>motorized vehicle traffic flows. Monday is the peak day for bicycle
>>accidents. It was also found that more bicycle accidents happened in July,
>>which is Beijing's tourism season. Generally speaking, roads and streets
>>with higher speed limits, such as arterials and rural highways, have
>>higher
>>rates of bicycle accident fatalities. Bicycle accidents can be attributed
>>to
>>many causes, including road and environmental conditions, traffic safety
>>measures, operations of motorized vehicles, and bicyclists' habits and
>>skills. The most pressing factor contributing to bicycle accidents is the
>>inadequate and insufficient facilities provided for bicyclists. To reduce
>>the annual toll of bicyclist injuries and fatalities, a number of
>>countermeasures, such as improvement of road and environmental conditions,
>>education in traffic laws, training in cycling, and use of helmet, are
>>recommended.
>>
>>whole document here
>>http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=451894
>>
>>50% of population ride to work in Beijing
>>that enough for you citers.
>>
> Dear Nash,
>
> Er, no.
>
> No number in your citation addresses your "100's of head injuries
> everyday in any Chinese city" claim. Those are all percentages of some
> unknown number of accidents.
>
> But it's good to see that you've changed your mind about citations and
> started looking at reality to see if it corresponds to what you claim.
> It isn't so much whether you're right or wrong about a particular
> matter--it's getting into the habit of looking into things.
>
> I'd be pleased if you find evidence that I'm mistaken in thinking that
> you're off by an order of magnitude or so and that hundreds of
> bicyclists suffer head injuries every day in any Chinese city.
>
> But a quick google doesn't suggest that's the case:
>
> "We are fortunate to have an in-depth report for China where bicycle
> related deaths kill 22 per 1,000,000 per year [18]."
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1379660
>
> So in a Chinese city with a million people, there would be only 22
> deaths per 365 x 100 = 36,500 head injuries. (Of course, those are 22
> "bicycle-related" deaths and thus include a fair number of pedestrians
> struck and killed by bicycles.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel