BIG aerobic power via anaerobic training!

[Quadsweep]

When I was a high level hockey player we used to do a ton of sprints and anaerobic intervals with a sprinkling of VO2 max intervals.

Know what, we got into very good shape very quickly and I am not just talking about anaerobic fitness here. We got into very good aerobic shape too.
Not only that but we jumped right into the intervals with little to no aerobic base from the summer months and we never "over traineed" by doing this nor did we get injured aside from the odd groin pull.

Now I have found articles that support that anaerobic training highly impacts the aerobic energy system.

Maybe the "huge" base of aerobic work isn't all that important after all.

Maybe us normal guys can get really good with only 6- 8 hours a week on the bike and only one 2-3 hour long ride each week.

http://overspeed.info/staticpages/index.php?page=HighlyAerobic
http://www.mcmaster.ca/ua/opr/nms/newsreleases/2005/gibala.html

and one of the abstracts
http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/abstract/575/3/901

 

[whoawhoa]

When I was a high level hockey player we used to do a ton of sprints and anaerobic intervals with a sprinkling of VO2 max intervals.

Know what, we got into very good shape very quickly and I am not just talking about anaerobic fitness here. We got into very good aerobic shape too.
Not only that but we jumped right into the intervals with little to no aerobic base from the summer months and we never "over traineed" by doing this nor did we get injured aside from the odd groin pull.

Now I have found articles that support that aeaerobic training highly impacts the aerobic energy system.

Maybe the "huge" base of aerobic work isn't all that important after all.

Maybe us normal guys can get really good with only 6- 8 hours a week on the bike and only one 2-3 hour long ride each week.

http://overspeed.info/staticpages/index.php?page=HighlyAerobic
http://www.mcmaster.ca/ua/opr/nms/newsreleases/2005/gibala.html

and one of the abstracts
http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/abstract/575/3/901

Well, how do you know you got into great aerobic shape?

What type of training did you do? I think most "anaerobic" training still has a large aerobic component. Also, many coaches like to do "anaerobic" intervals w/short recoveries, which basically makes them v02max intervals.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Now I have found articles that support that aeaerobic training highly impacts the aerobic energy system.

There is little doubt about the veracity of this statement. Several studies show that short duration, high-intensity anaerobic efforts (e.g., 30secs) result in performance gains across the board, including FTP. But, the question is whether such training best targets FTP (or VO2MAX) and the answer to that question seems to be no. The concept of training for targeted adaptations is that one is targeting specific performance improvements (e.g., FTP) and uses efforts with specific combinations of power and duration to attain the maximum adaptation per unit of training time.

 

[frenchyge]

...nor did we get injured aside from the odd groin pull.

Knocked out teeth don't constitute injuries?

Well, how do you know you got into great aerobic shape?

Exactly. When the demands of the sport are 60 minutes of fast bursts, with substitutions, timeouts, etc. it only makes sense that the training would be specific to that. I'm not sure that means you'll impress people with your 10k run times, however.

Crits and RR's don't really fit that description, although it is pretty well documented that interval training is still the most effective way to gain aerobic fitness. Even anaerobic efforts tax the aerobic system if the duration is long enough.

 

[Quadsweep]

Well, how do you know you got into great aerobic shape?

What type of training did you do? I think most "anaerobic" training still has a large aerobic component. Also, many coaches like to do "anaerobic" intervals w/short recoveries, which basically makes them v02max intervals.

Well we would do runs 10 K runs from time to time, like once every couple weeks, as a team, and our times would go down a lot as we did more and more interval work. I fact at the start of the season we would all be slow and fatigued for the 10K but after a a month we would be way stronger and very strong after a few months.Some of the guys could do a 35 minute 10K at seasons end which is damn good considering nobody weighed less than 175lbs and most were 185-200lbs. One of the smaller guys (me

at 5'8" and 175) ran a 34. Nobody did running in their training.
Ever try runing a 35 minute 10K

it aint easy especially when you haver tree trunks for legs.

Yes, much of the time the anaerobic intervals had short rest peroids so that would indeed make them VO2 max. But the fact that we NEVER did any training efforts over 5 minutes at a time and our aerobic fitness was damn good.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Well we would do runs 10 K runs from time to time, like once every couple weeks, as a team, and our times would go down a lot as we did more and more interval work. I fact at the start of the season we would all be slow and fatigued for the 10K but after a a month we would be way stronger and very strong after a few months.Some of the guys could do a 34-35 minute 10K at seasons end which is damn good considering nobody weighed less than 175lbs and most were 185-200lbs. Nobody did running in their training.
Ever try runing a 35 minute 10K

it aint easy especially when you haver tree trunks for legs.

Yes, some of the time the anaerobic intervals had short rest peroids so that would indeed make them VO2 max. But the fact that we NEVER did any training efforts over 5 minutes at a time and our aerobic fitness was damn good.

Just a bit of clarification here....you said hockey right?

Ok, I am not a hockey player or expert, but I watched more than a few games while living in Canada. As I recall, the players are on the ice for maybe, 2-4 minutes maximum, before going back to the bench and then being substituted by another set of players.

So if the training you speak of was in those circumstances (with the substituting of players every few minutes), then it is obvious why it would work. The training closely simulated the conditions in the games.

If you were on the ice for 60 minutes straight though, I wonder if the training might not have been so great!

 

[Quadsweep]

Just a bit of clarification here....you said hockey right?

Ok, I am not a hockey player or expert, but I watched more than a few games while living in Canada. As I recall, the players are on the ice for maybe, 2-4 minutes maximum, before going back to the bench and then being substituted by another set of players.

So if the training you speak of was in those circumstances (with the substituting of players every few minutes), then it is obvious why it would work. The training closely simulated the conditions in the games.

If you were on the ice for 60 minutes straight though, I suspect the training might not have been so great!

That's the point bro. Everything is anaerobic intervals and sprints BUT we got into good "aerobic" shape as a byproduct of all this anaerobic training! Most of us big muscled guys could run a 10 K in around 35-37 minutes and only ran once every couple weeks as a test. Most of us were pretty "fast twitch" in muscle fiber type too.
Not a flame bro but have you ever tried to run a sub 40 minute 10 K let alone a 35 minute 10 K?...it's not easy and as I mentioned above we had tree trunks for legs and were not light weights.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Nowdays, hockey requires a gread deal of aerobic endurance. I even heard (off the record ) that some NHL players where on epo, why not after all.

Problem with these guys Quadsweep is that they must grow themselve way too big. By doing that, their relative VO2Max suffers a lot. I mean we're talking about efforts at VO2Max or over, with sometimes 30 to 40pounds over optimal weight for the type of effort.

A friend of mine is a hockey player. He's 34yo. He rides a bike in summer exclusively. Group rides only with friend. Jocking having a beer that sort of thing. No competition no intervals.

Here was his test results from a lab test done recently. He stopped training on the bike early september because of the hockey training camp. He hasn't prepared this test.

Quelques petites données:
Mon poids au test: 191 lbs
VO2Max: 67.2 (ml/kg/min) ou 5,794 l/min après 14:45
HR au VO2 max: 181
Work (watts): 450

Treshold: Après 12:46
VO2: 56.5
HR: 173
Work (watts): 390

I believe that's cat 2 results if I'm not mistaken.

That being said, I agree with what have been said about aerobic development, or optimal aerobic development. While L6 may be a valid way to acheive some results, better targeted L2-3-4-5 training will probably translate into even better results.

 

[SolarEnergy]

2-4 minutes maximum

I agree with you to some extent. But in the same time you know, performing over 2-4 minutes events requires a great aerobic development. You need L5, which needs L4, which preferably needs L3, which likes L2.

Plus, the overall workout (in hockey) is 15-25min long roughly, which correspond to the total time spent on the ice. Plus the training in between the games.

I wasn't answering to your comment in order to argue. It's just that to participate in hockey players physical preparation (at a high level) would be one of my dreams.

There are not enough hockey threads in this forum

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

I agree with you to some extent. But in the same time you know, performing over 2-4 minutes events requires a great aerobic development. You need L5, which needs L4, which preferably needs L3, which likes L2.

Plus, the overall workout (in hockey) is 15-25min long roughly, which correspond to the total time spent on the ice. Plus the training in between the games.

I wasn't answering to your comment in order to argue. It's just that to participate in hockey players physical preparation (at a high level) would be one of my dreams.

There are not enough hockey threads in this forum

Well since you didn't refer to me as 'bro', I'll respond

My point is that the OP mentioned this type of training that was largely anaerobic, short-duration, high-intensity - which I think is well-chosen since his sport places those kinds of demands on the athletes. Whereas if he had said they sat on stationary bikes and cycled for hours at low intensity, I would wonder why (unless they wanted to lower their fat % or get lean...).

 

[SolarEnergy]

Well since you didn't refer to me as 'bro', I'll respond

Don't worry 'sis'

My point is that the OP mentioned this type of training that was largely anaerobic, short-duration, high-intensity - which I think is well-chosen since his sport places those kinds of demands on the athletes. Whereas if he had said they sat on stationary bikes and cycled for hours at low intensity, I would wonder why (unless they wanted to lower their fat % or get lean...).

I totally misunderstood your point at first reading but thanks anyway, I could write a word or two on one of my passions.

And I concur of course.

 

[whoawhoa]

Well we would do runs 10 K runs from time to time, like once every couple weeks, as a team, and our times would go down a lot as we did more and more interval work. I fact at the start of the season we would all be slow and fatigued for the 10K but after a a month we would be way stronger and very strong after a few months.Some of the guys could do a 35 minute 10K at seasons end which is damn good considering nobody weighed less than 175lbs and most were 185-200lbs. One of the smaller guys (me

at 5'8" and 175) ran a 34. Nobody did running in their training.
Ever try runing a 35 minute 10K

it aint easy especially when you haver tree trunks for legs.

Yes, some of the time the anaerobic intervals had short rest peroids so that would indeed make them VO2 max. But the fact that we NEVER did any training efforts over 5 minutes at a time and our aerobic fitness was damn good.

Those are some impressive 10k times for a bunch of bulky hockey players. That said, you said you were playing "high-level" hockey so I suspect you were all fairly talented athletically. Plus, a bunch of short, hard intervals w/short recovery is going to be a predominantly aerobic workout. Read some of the threads on here about 30secs on/30 secs off for v02max workouts.

 

[Quadsweep]

Well since you didn't refer to me as 'bro', I'll respond

My point is that the OP mentioned this type of training that was largely anaerobic, short-duration, high-intensity - which I think is well-chosen since his sport places those kinds of demands on the athletes. Whereas if he had said they sat on stationary bikes and cycled for hours at low intensity, I would wonder why (unless they wanted to lower their fat % or get lean...).

oops...sorry sista. I am in such a rush posting at time that I forget to look.

 

[Quadsweep]

Those are some impressive 10k times for a bunch of bulky hockey players. That said, you said you were playing "high-level" hockey so I suspect you were all fairly talented athletically. Plus, a bunch of short, hard intervals w/short recovery is going to be a predominantly aerobic workout. Read some of the threads on here about 30secs on/30 secs off for v02max workouts.

Ya, you're right. Much of the time we didn't rest much between intervals so they were high end aerobic a lot of the time(VO2). However, the 10K run done every other week was the extent of our long endurance training yet it was a very hard run most of which was above threshold I am sure(basically a team race).