Big gear work - why is it bad for knees?



velomanct

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Dec 21, 2003
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I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.

Take for instance weight lifters. (powerlifters, olympic lifters). They are putting at least the same force through their knees as a cyclist would, if he were to climb a very steep hill in a 53x12. Weightlifting is healthy, and strengthens muscles, ligaments, and tendons. So why does riding a bike at say 40rpm so unhealthy for one's knees?

I'm not talking about slogging away for hours at very low cadences. I'm talking about short intervals (< 1 min), and overgeared sprints, both designed to improve strength on the bike.
Assuming you have done a very good warmup, I can't see how it would be detriminal to your knees.

This discussion is going to lead me to some others where I will start a new thread.
 
velomanct said:
I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.
Well, are those many people talking about <1min intervals, or slogging around at low rpm for extended periods of time? Certainly either could be considered "big gear work."
 
velomanct said:
I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.
Makes a lot of sens for me as a rider. I have a bad right knee. 125k group ride? No problem. Too much of a big gear while climbing (and I am not even refering to SE training), it can put me off the bike for 7days.

velomanct said:
Take for instance weight lifters. (powerlifters, olympic lifters). They are putting at least the same force through their knees as a cyclist would, if he were to climb a very steep hill in a 53x12.
My guess is that knee injuries are commun in the weight lifting community. Plus, they take very good care at how the movement is made, in order to lower the risk.

Not to mention, that there are probably some biomechanical differences, between weight lifting, and cycling.

velomanct said:
I'm not talking about slogging away for hours at very low cadences. I'm talking about short intervals (< 1 min),
If I am not mistaken, people typically do more than 1 minute of these intervals. I may be wrong, I have never prescribed that thing.

I should add that SE training is probably not BAD for most riders knees. But it is probably fair to state that is is more risky, that's all. From the view point of rider, that doesn't mean much. But from the view point of a coach, responsable of 20 persons, that is a different story.
 
one thing comes to mind, the flailing away, or loss of style, that tends to occur when the cyclist does the big gear stuff. the lateral and angular rotations of the knee joint the tear away at..all the stuff in there.
i had knee probs, and with the use of just one shim under the cleat on one side, the pedaling is much more "straight up and down".
these are called "lewedge" cleat shims, they do the trick.




SolarEnergy said:
My guess is that knee injuries are commun in the weight lifting community. Plus, they take very good care at how the movement is made, in order to lower the risk.
 
velomanct said:
I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.

Take for instance weight lifters. (powerlifters, olympic lifters). They are putting at least the same force through their knees as a cyclist would, if he were to climb a very steep hill in a 53x12. Weightlifting is healthy, and strengthens muscles, ligaments, and tendons. So why does riding a bike at say 40rpm so unhealthy for one's knees?

The forces in powerlifting, olympic lifting and free falling from 8 feet onto a hard surface (which far exceeds those in olympic lifting or powerlifting!) far exceed those in riding up a hill in any gear on an upright bicycle.

Not surprisingly, there is is a much higher incidence of back problems in olympic lifters and powerlifters. Not so much during competition, but as they get older, it's a thing that builds up over time. Not sure about their knees, although I think the OL'ers would take a bigger beating with all that rebounding out of a deep squat position.

I'm not talking about slogging away for hours at very low cadences. I'm talking about short intervals (< 1 min), and overgeared sprints, both designed to improve strength on the bike.
Assuming you have done a very good warmup, I can't see how it would be detriminal to your knees.

I don't see it as being a problem either, compared to running the shock absorbed by the knees (and feet, ankles, hips, and back!) in cycling is far less. Your feet never "hit" the pedals under the acceleration of gravity like in running.

-Bikeguy
 
velomanct said:
I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.

Take for instance weight lifters. (powerlifters, olympic lifters). They are putting at least the same force through their knees as a cyclist would, if he were to climb a very steep hill in a 53x12. Weightlifting is healthy, and strengthens muscles, ligaments, and tendons. So why does riding a bike at say 40rpm so unhealthy for one's knees?

I'm not talking about slogging away for hours at very low cadences. I'm talking about short intervals (< 1 min), and overgeared sprints, both designed to improve strength on the bike.
Assuming you have done a very good warmup, I can't see how it would be detriminal to your knees.

This discussion is going to lead me to some others where I will start a new thread.
Once one goes past recreational or fitness levels of exercise they are placing greater stress on the joints than they were intended for.

Keep in mind that a true powerlifting styled squat is more "sticking the butt out" than it is a straight squat downward. Watch a toddler squat down to pick something up. They have perfect form. This angle may keep some of them from having knee problems but it does place greater stress on the lower back.
 
bikeguy said:
I don't see it as being a problem either, compared to running the shock absorbed by the knees (and feet, ankles, hips, and back!) in cycling is far less. Your feet never "hit" the pedals under the acceleration of gravity like in running.
True but the angle of the knee during cycling can be hard on them. That's why a lot of people put their seat back further. Cycling with the seat too far forward can feel like walking down steps all of the time. I can walk up steps all day but walking down a few flights I feel like they're going to buckle underneath me. :eek:
 
It's a matter of what you condition those ligaments and tendons to handle. Walking around in your daily life doesn't do much to strengthen these, then go out and do some hard accelerations or other (relative to what you've done previously) high force work with many pedal strokes and you may have problems.

I would never just jump on the bike in November and do the really hard uphill standing starts I'm doing 6 weeks later. We work up to that amount of force gradually. Same for the uphill training at low cadences. I start out with three minute intervals with power below threshold and work up gradually to 7+ minutes with power just above threshold.

And, warm up thoroughly and keep your knees warm.
 
It also has something to do with the repetitive nature of the motion that causes the injury in cycling. While a weight lifter generates more force, how often do they do that - 30 or 90 times per hour during training and maybe nine to twelve times per day during competition? Compare that to 40 times per minute in cycling, and you will see that there is a much greater potential for cumulative damage in cycling.

Also, as others have pointed out, movement in weight lifting is more controlled than it is in cycling. In weight lifting, full concentration can be given to each motion. In cycling, you have to be concerned about the road conditions, what the cyclist in front of you is doing, whether you are staying in the correct position on the road, etc. Although it seems like second nature, it does detract from the ability to concentrate on whether the knees are in the correct position throughout each revolution of the pedal.

Finally, weight lifters do get knee injuries. It is true that proper strength training can prevent knee injury but, competitive power lifting is hard on the knees.
 
WarrenG said:
It's a matter of what you condition those ligaments and tendons to handle. Walking around in your daily life doesn't do much to strengthen these, then go out and do some hard accelerations or other (relative to what you've done previously) high force work with many pedal strokes and you may have problems.
No matter how you condition the ligaments, the load is always being supported by the same cartilage. There's been a very large volume of research linking excessive joint loading to osteoarthritis.
 
From my experience, pushing a big gear on a hill puts much more stress on my knees and sometimes they will hurt, shifting down (when possible) immediately relieves the stress and pain. I don't see a problem with powering away for a short period in a big gear, you are only doing a small number of repetitions like weightlifters, but doing it for hours on end I'm pretty sure would destroy my knees.

Pain is nature's way of warning us off doing stupid things and I think the answer to this thread is pretty much a no brainer for most.
 
Doctor Morbius said:
True but the angle of the knee during cycling can be hard on them. That's why a lot of people put their seat back further. Cycling with the seat too far forward can feel like walking down steps all of the time. I can walk up steps all day but walking down a few flights I feel like they're going to buckle underneath me. :eek:
I have my saddle in a more TT position with the saddle quite a long way forward. I also have the saddle up high which can mean a more up-down stroke which is OK for more powerful cyclists. Once a week I do SE without fail and the improvement in power is amazing...obviously the other cycling has helped but my SE has obviously helped muscle development. This is by far the best strength training a cyclist can do as it doesn't add uneccesary muscle.

My routine is to ride my climbing circuit for about 40km's (working on technique and generally hammering the hills all out) before tackling all out sprints in big gears off a slow start for about 15 seconds x 6 reps. Then I will head out to a nice piece of land where I can do my SE, its a gradual gradient for about 500 metres...I sit down in the saddle, place my palms on the tops (no pulling!), put it in biggest gear and pump until the top by the end you are going 30km/h I repeat 6 times. Then I spin home...on these rides I make sure to spin at 110+ when not climbing or doing intervals so I am working on leg speed and power and climbing and sprints in the one workout. All up its 60km's and let me tell you it works wonders!

SE isn't dangerous IMO.
 
velomanct said:
I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.

Try starting up your stick-shift car in 5th gear instead of first gear every time you stop at a light, and see how long your transmission lasts.

Bob
 
velomanct said:
I want to start a discussion on why many have come to the conclusion that big gear work on the bike can lead to knee problems. I have been thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense.
For the same reason as to why it is bad for the lower back. Why does the Physiology expert appear to always steer clear of any questions referring to cycling related pain and injury ?
 
n crowley said:
For the same reason as to why it is bad for the lower back. Why does the Physiology expert appear to always steer clear of any questions referring to cycling related pain and injury ?

Because he prefers to refer those to a sports medicine doc?

When I do this training I can feel it in my lower back, but in a good way that makes it stronger, which is part of the objective for that training. A strong back is helpful for climbing and accelerating while in the saddle. A strong back and core are essential for good sprinting.
 
Racing is hard on my lower back. If I do a hilly race, or just a hard race, my lower back kills me. It's not that I am weak, I could stiff-leg deadlift 250lbs for reps. I think my position on the bike is fine too.

But anyways, big gear work does require a strong lower back. Especially when sprinting in the 53x12 from 15mph, in the saddle.
 
velomanct said:
Racing is hard on my lower back. If I do a hilly race, or just a hard race, my lower back kills me. It's not that I am weak, I could stiff-leg deadlift 250lbs for reps. I think my position on the bike is fine too.

But anyways, big gear work does require a strong lower back. Especially when sprinting in the 53x12 from 15mph, in the saddle.
When I do my strength sessions there is no doubt you need some core body strength. In this case you aren't just spinning the legs under a relaxed upper body you are powering all out using as much strength as possible so a solid core obviously helps.
 
dm69 said:
When I do my strength sessions there is no doubt you need some core body strength. In this case you aren't just spinning the legs under a relaxed upper body you are powering all out using as much strength as possible so a solid core obviously helps.
I could not agree more. In another thread someone mentioned that they did all of their strength training on the bike. Their rationale was that they would only develop the muscles needed for cycling and not gain any unnecessary weight. That approach is a set up for injury. The major purpose of strength training is to strengthen the core and the opposing muscles to prevent injury. It is not possible to strengthen the lower back simply by spinning, but as others have pointed out, without a strong back, you can hurt yourself on the bike.

I have far more experience with swimming than with cycling, but I have seen the same thing there. Far too many swimmers, and even some coaches, spend way too much time working on the muscles used in swimming at the expense of the opposing muscle groups. The result is that the pecs are overdeveloped and the back is underdeveloped. This causes the shoulders to be rotated forward, which ultimately leads to rotator cuff damage. By the time these swimmers reach 40, they can no longer raise their arms over their heads.

Knees injuries cycling are similar to shoulder injuries in swimming. If the only strength training is spining, injury is more likely to occur. Use strength training to balance the quads and hamstrings and to strengthen the lower back and abs. This will go a long way to prevent injury.
 
dm69 said:
When I do my strength sessions there is no doubt you need some core body strength. In this case you aren't just spinning the legs under a relaxed upper body you are powering all out using as much strength as possible so a solid core obviously helps.
I could not agree more. In another thread someone mentioned that they did all of their strength training on the bike. Their rationale was that they would only develop the muscles needed for cycling and not gain any unnecessary weight. That approach is a set up for injury. The major purpose of strength training is to strengthen the core and the opposing muscles to prevent injury. It is not possible to strengthen the lower back simply by spinning, but as others have pointed out, without a strong back, you can hurt yourself on the bike.

I have far more experience with swimming than with cycling, but I have seen the same thing there. Far too many swimmers, and even some coaches, spend way too much time working on the muscles used in swimming at the expense of the opposing muscle groups. The result is that the pecs are overdeveloped and the back is underdeveloped. This causes the shoulders to be rotated forward, which ultimately leads to rotator cuff damage. By the time these swimmers reach 40, they can no longer raise their arms over their heads.

Knees injuries cycling are similar to shoulder injuries in swimming. If the only strength training is spining, injury is more likely to occur. Use strength training to balance the quads and hamstrings and to strengthen the lower back and abs. This will go a long way to prevent injury.