Big Mig - honest, dishonest?



J

Jeff Jones

Guest
On May 25, 7:30 pm, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> New rule, proposed long ago - you did nothing wrong? Cast the first stone.
> [notes to rule] - check your memory really really closely, first.


Apply this straightforward rule and you get...a code of silence.
Especially when you have a group of people who need to stick together
to survive, even if they are competitors. It happens in all kinds of
relationships and comes down to normal human behaviour.

There is no easy solution to cheating in a system like professional
sport. Some athletes are always going to cheat. Either you allow
athletes to take whatever they want and sign a death disclaimer (this
penalises the athletes who want to race clean) and concentrate on
policing the rules on the road, or you have a 100 percent bulletproof
system that detects all doping, all the time.

The latter is practically impossible, while the former would annoy a
few people and lead to some deaths. It's not particularly nice.

In the good ol' days, the media had more respect for the omerta and
helped keep a lid on affairs. But it's changed, with cycling being one
of the first targets. I wonder if there's enough money and power to
keep things quiet about some of the bigger sports like football and
tennis?

I remember reading about Telekom's doping program about 10 years ago.
Riis has been pestered by journalists since then, because funnily
enough, they knew about it too. Finding out this sort of information
and getting it out there comes with the territory. It's now at the
stage where reporting on an actual race should be an attention-
grabbing headline, because it doesn't happen that often.

Jeff
 
B

Bob Schwartz

Guest
benjo maso wrote:
> "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Dan Gregory wrote:
>>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>> Dope free also, makes him one of the few legitimate winners.
>>>> Dumbass,
>>>>
>>>> Salbutamol, 1994.
>>> In which year Riis admits he was using Epo

>> Gewiss made a ton of progress that year. Just like Telekom would
>> in following years.
>>
>> In 1994 I don't believe EPO was a banned substance yet. I'm not
>> sure when that came, 1996?

>
>
> No, 1990
>
> Benjo


Are you sure?

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons Planckaert was willing to admit
to winning the 1990 Paris-Roubaix while on EPO was that at the
time it was OK.

Bob Schwartz
 
B

benjo maso

Guest
"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> benjo maso wrote:
>> "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> Dan Gregory wrote:
>>>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>>>> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>>>> Dope free also, makes him one of the few legitimate winners.
>>>>> Dumbass,
>>>>>
>>>>> Salbutamol, 1994.
>>>> In which year Riis admits he was using Epo
>>> Gewiss made a ton of progress that year. Just like Telekom would
>>> in following years.
>>>
>>> In 1994 I don't believe EPO was a banned substance yet. I'm not
>>> sure when that came, 1996?

>>
>>
>> No, 1990
>>
>> Benjo

>
> Are you sure?
>
> I'm pretty sure one of the reasons Planckaert was willing to admit
> to winning the 1990 Paris-Roubaix while on EPO was that at the
> time it was OK.



Yes, I'm sure. And Eddy Planckaert said that he used Epo only in the last
year of his career, i.e. 1991.

Benjo
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Dans le message de news:[email protected],
> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> > "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >> On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "[email protected]"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
> >>>> peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this
> >>>> is naive but it is how I want to remember him.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
> >>> 'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
> >>> was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
> >>> well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY
> >>> **** BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the
> >>> scandal that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh
> >>> my god my head's going to explode...........
> >>
> >> This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If
> >> they take
> >> out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know
> >> to be clean?

> >
> > I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold
> > or the Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

>
> New rule, proposed long ago - you did nothing wrong? Cast the first stone.
> [notes to rule] - check your memory really really closely, first.


Thanks for the chance to talk about misquotations. No,
you have not misquoted. Following is a quote that is
almost always misquoted.

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged:
and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to
you again.

--
Michael Press
 
>
> Who can we say was really clean? Eki? Probably.


no way. I can't imagine anyone coming thru any eastern-bloc sports
program being 100% clean.

>Julich? likely, too.


My guess would be he's not clean either.
 
S

SLAVE of THE STATE

Guest
On May 25, 12:17 pm, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:

> Unfortunately this dumb circle jerk is probably going to result in more
> power to dicks like Pound.


It never ceases to amaze me the degree to which people think that
granting power to someone, and then closing one's eyes and hoping for
the best could possibly solve social problems. But yet it is so
prevalant in so many circumstances.

"*They* will figure it out and everything will be a-ok. Don't worry,
be happy." -- bf, 1759
 
K

Kurgan Gringioni

Guest
On May 25, 11:06 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 25, 1:58 pm, "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> >news:[email protected]

>
> > > On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "[email protected]"
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > >>> I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
> > >>> peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
> > >>> naive but it is how I want to remember him.

>
> > >>Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
> > >>'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
> > >>was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
> > >>well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
> > >>BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
> > >>that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
> > >>head's going to explode...........

>
> > > This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
> > > take
> > > out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
> > > clean?

>
> > I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
> > Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

>
> Who can we say was really clean? Eki? Probably. Julich? likely,
> too.





Dumbass -


That is such a bunch of wishful BS.

Julich's team that year, Cofidis, was one of the few EPO teams to
avoid getting their stash taken away when Voet got busted. They
finished 3 riders in the top 7. Julich (3rd), Cristophe Rinero (4th),
Roland Meir (7th).

It was a career year for all three of them. After that the French
teams were subject to the extreme anti-doping laws in that nation and
those guys all fell off the face of the earth resultswise.

Julich=dirty (IMHO)


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On May 25, 1:58 pm, "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > news:[email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "[email protected]"
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:

> >
> > >>> I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
> > >>> peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
> > >>> naive but it is how I want to remember him.

> >
> > >>Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
> > >>'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
> > >>was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
> > >>well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
> > >>BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
> > >>that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
> > >>head's going to explode...........

> >
> > > This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
> > > take
> > > out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
> > > clean?

> >
> > I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
> > Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

>
> Who can we say was really clean? Eki? Probably. Julich? likely,
> too. Hamilton? I think only he and his only mentor still believe.


I think Tugboat believed him to the day he died.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "[email protected]"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>> I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
> >>> peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
> >>> naive but it is how I want to remember him.
> >>
> >>Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
> >>'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
> >>was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
> >>well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
> >>BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
> >>that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
> >>head's going to explode...........

> >
> > This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
> > take
> > out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
> > clean?

>
> I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
> Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.


And it pains me to admit it, but Brian's not only right, he's probably
been right about doping prevalence more often than most people in this
group.

About the worst thing you can say about WADA-world is that it's a
McCarthyite witch hunt. Overzealous, willing to transgress the
principles it claims to get to its targets. And like McCarthy, the
witches it's hunting are mostly real.

I can't remember who keeps quoting "it's possible to frame a guilty
man," but all I think of a lot of the time is a quote by Kissinger:
can't they both lose?

My saving grace with the whole "justice and the medal" approach is that,
however proper it would be, moving everyone up a rung is probably
better-than-even odds of just promoting a different doper in a large
number of these cases.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

> And it pains me to admit it, but Brian's not only right, he's probably
> been right about doping prevalence more often than most people in this
> group.


If you count number of posts.

--
Michael Press
 
C

Carl Sundquist

Guest
"Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>>
>> I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or
>> the
>> Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

>
> And it pains me to admit it, but Brian's not only right, he's probably
> been right about doping prevalence more often than most people in this
> group.
>


The situation that made Brian such a focal point of derision was not that he
was necessarily wrong, but that his zealousness was focused on one
individual to the degree of appearing of indifferent about doping throughout
the remainder of peloton.
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On Sat, 26 May 2007 02:02:56 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "RonSonic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> > On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "[email protected]"
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>> I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
>> >>> peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
>> >>> naive but it is how I want to remember him.
>> >>
>> >>Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
>> >>'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
>> >>was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
>> >>well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
>> >>BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
>> >>that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
>> >>head's going to explode...........
>> >
>> > This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
>> > take
>> > out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
>> > clean?

>>
>> I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
>> Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.


I probably would, but it wouldn't be any good for the sport.

>And it pains me to admit it, but Brian's not only right, he's probably
>been right about doping prevalence more often than most people in this
>group.
>
>About the worst thing you can say about WADA-world is that it's a
>McCarthyite witch hunt. Overzealous, willing to transgress the
>principles it claims to get to its targets. And like McCarthy, the
>witches it's hunting are mostly real.


An unfortunately accurate comparison. In a world with witches about the worst
thing you can do is give witch hunting a bad name and McCarthy and Pound have
succeeded.

>I can't remember who keeps quoting "it's possible to frame a guilty
>man," but all I think of a lot of the time is a quote by Kissinger:
>can't they both lose?
>
>My saving grace with the whole "justice and the medal" approach is that,
>however proper it would be, moving everyone up a rung is probably
>better-than-even odds of just promoting a different doper in a large
>number of these cases.


I'm afraid it has been so. In the future, maybe different. But that's the way
it's been. Look at the Riis thread - you gotta dig down a bit to find anyone we
aren't pretty sure was doping.

ROn
 
D

Donald Munro

Guest
Michael Press wrote:
> For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged:
> and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to
> you again.


That Ben Franklin guy's been around for a long time.
 
On May 25, 11:36 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The situation that made Brian such a focal point of derision was not that he
> was necessarily wrong, but that his zealousness was focused on one
> individual to the degree of appearing of indifferent about doping throughout
> the remainder of peloton.


I believe Brian stated (and then quoted himself at least once) he was
actually in favor of letting riders use whatever they wanted. Which
made his personal hatred of someone he's never met personally even
more derisionable IMHO.

Well, some people just can't stand others' feeling good about
themselves, you know? Such is life! --D-y
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 26 May 2007 08:43:06 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On May 25, 11:36 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The situation that made Brian such a focal point of derision was not that he
>> was necessarily wrong, but that his zealousness was focused on one
>> individual to the degree of appearing of indifferent about doping throughout
>> the remainder of peloton.

>
>I believe Brian stated (and then quoted himself at least once) he was
>actually in favor of letting riders use whatever they wanted. Which
>made his personal hatred of someone he's never met personally even
>more derisionable IMHO.


"Risible." From the Latin "ris" for laugh - the root word of ridicule and
derision.

>Well, some people just can't stand others' feeling good about
>themselves, you know? Such is life! --D-y


It amazes me how some people just inflame haters, you wonder what it is about
them and the hater that provokes. Perhaps there's a paper in this.

Ron