Big Mig - honest, dishonest?



On May 30, 11:35 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> your wife's anecdote provides maybe
> the best distinction I've seen yet. The research assistant's
> plagiarism was unethical, but hardly rises to being immoral.
> The author's assertion of authorship was ethical (in keeping
> with accepted practice in the field) but immoral.


I tried to get my wife to go through with the book review. How would
you have classified that?
 
S

SLAVE of THE STATE

Guest
On May 30, 2:35 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On May 29, 12:43 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > A few years ago my wife was asked to review a new book that had just
> > been published on a topic related to her field. Part way through the
> > first chapter, she read a sentence that sounded familiar. The next
> > sentence, too. She went to her file cabinet, pulled out an article
> > she'd written a few years before and started comparing sentence after
> > sentence, paragraph after paragraph, page after page. The guy who was
> > the nominal author of that chapter was shocked, shocked to discover
> > this and said he, too, was a victim. He'd trusted that the stuff he'd
> > taken from his research assistant was original.

>
> Once at a research conference I had a lively BS session
> (while studying the procedures of LIVEDRUNK)
> with some of my friends...


Okay, well that explains it.

> ... about the difference between
> "ethical" and "moral." You can likely figure it out;
> loosely, one idea is that ethics are a set of accepted
> practices (possibly in a specific field) while morals
> are guiding principles, Ten Commandments-type stuff.


That's okay, I suppose -- especially if someone knows your
distinctions when speaking to you. I reckon many people won't if you
don't tell them. The definitions I've seen published make the two
essentially synonymous. I've had my own *weak* distinction, but it is
nothing like your's.

> Is doping in bike racing unethical or amoral? Who the
> hell knows?


Prima facie, it is unethical to dope under the current rules. If you
agree in participating that you will not break the rules against
doping, then you should not break the rules.

There are situations when lying is acceptable: telling a robber you
don't have any more money when you do not is not immoral/unethical.
There is no duty to tell the barbarian inside the gates the truth, or
to aid them in any way.
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On May 30, 11:35 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > your wife's anecdote provides maybe
> > the best distinction I've seen yet. The research assistant's
> > plagiarism was unethical, but hardly rises to being immoral.
> > The author's assertion of authorship was ethical (in keeping
> > with accepted practice in the field) but immoral.

>
> I tried to get my wife to go through with the book review. How would
> you have classified that?


Hilarious?

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
I would argue that Julich was clean, and Eki became clean later in his
career, but it's irrelevant because you can't prove anything now.
Just leave it be and move on in the right direction. Villifying these
guys ain't going to move us forward! They were wrong, but I'm not so
quick to blame them for it all. Would you prefer to work in a paint
factory or win the Tour? Perhaps some of us are strong enough to make
that call, but life in America is relatively easy, life in some
European countries wasn't so easy. I have to be honest, if I had a
choice of leaving Siberia or some eastern block country and taking my
familay out too I'm not sure I'd make the 'right' choice.

Riis doped. Who among us didn't already know that? Indurain's
statements are cryptic and ambiguous. If I was clean, I'd say it flat
out, not do this dance of words about Riis coming clean now and what
good would it do and how I lost the Tour, rather being beaten. What
kind of **** is that? Maybe Big Mig wanted out and finally stopped
doping in '96 to 'fake' his collapse...

Doping in the '90's is like a tootsie pop...The world may never know.

CH
 
Dishonest.

On May 25, 9:35 am, "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> My favorite tdf winner is the Big Mig. The fact that he was big (170
> lbs), that he used clinchers, he was an averaged sized guy, using regular
> stuff, not superlight ****, always made him my favorite. Dope free also,
> makes him one of the few legitimate winners. Also, his exit was dignified,
> and he always seemed less arrogant than the other riders who have come on
> gone since. I don't think there are any Indurain haters even out there.
> Wouldn't it be nice, if those kind of riders were again invited back into
> the peloton.
 
E

Ewoud Dronkert

Guest
[email protected] schreef:
> Once at a research conference I had a lively BS session
> (while studying the procedures of LIVEDRUNK)
> with some of my friends about the difference between
> "ethical" and "moral." You can likely figure it out;


Ethical is where others are forcing their values on you, moral the other
way around.


--
E. Dronkert
 
W

William Asher

Guest
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:

> [email protected] schreef:
>> Once at a research conference I had a lively BS session
>> (while studying the procedures of LIVEDRUNK)
>> with some of my friends about the difference between
>> "ethical" and "moral." You can likely figure it out;

>
> Ethical is where others are forcing their values on you, moral the other
> way around.
>
>


I thought that was the difference between piety and zealotry.

--
Bill Asher
 
E

Ewoud Dronkert

Guest
William Asher schreef:
> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>> Ethical is where others are forcing their values on you, moral the other
>> way around.

>
> I thought that was the difference between piety and zealotry.


Ah there you go. I thought I had an original idea. You know, in primary
school I invented binary notation.


--
E. Dronkert
 
D

Donald Munro

Guest
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Ah there you go. I thought I had an original idea. You know, in primary
> school I invented binary notation.


At least you've got something in common with Kunich.
 
W

William Asher

Guest
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:

> William Asher schreef:
>> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>> Ethical is where others are forcing their values on you, moral the
>>> other way around.

>>
>> I thought that was the difference between piety and zealotry.

>
> Ah there you go. I thought I had an original idea. You know, in
> primary school I invented binary notation.


I know the feeling. I thought I had invented binary notation but it turned
out people weren't ready to express things in terms of q and 3. It sucks
being a visionary and getting fed moldy rye bread all the time.

--
Bill Asher
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 31 May 2007 08:35:49 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I would argue that Julich was clean, and Eki became clean later in his
>career, but it's irrelevant because you can't prove anything now.
>Just leave it be and move on in the right direction. Villifying these
>guys ain't going to move us forward! They were wrong, but I'm not so
>quick to blame them for it all. Would you prefer to work in a paint
>factory or win the Tour? Perhaps some of us are strong enough to make
>that call, but life in America is relatively easy, life in some
>European countries wasn't so easy. I have to be honest, if I had a
>choice of leaving Siberia or some eastern block country and taking my
>familay out too I'm not sure I'd make the 'right' choice.
>
>Riis doped. Who among us didn't already know that? Indurain's
>statements are cryptic and ambiguous. If I was clean, I'd say it flat
>out, not do this dance of words about Riis coming clean now and what
>good would it do and how I lost the Tour, rather being beaten. What
>kind of **** is that? Maybe Big Mig wanted out and finally stopped
>doping in '96 to 'fake' his collapse...



I don't want to slander people with speculation, but there are plenty
of riders that I strongly think are doping. Could someone at RBR run
some sort of lockbox where we make our preditctions and they are keep
private till eight years after the rider retires and then we see who
had the most accurate picks.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 31 May 2007 08:35:49 -0700, "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I would argue that Julich was clean, and Eki became clean later in his
> >career, but it's irrelevant because you can't prove anything now.
> >Just leave it be and move on in the right direction. Villifying these
> >guys ain't going to move us forward! They were wrong, but I'm not so
> >quick to blame them for it all. Would you prefer to work in a paint
> >factory or win the Tour? Perhaps some of us are strong enough to make
> >that call, but life in America is relatively easy, life in some
> >European countries wasn't so easy. I have to be honest, if I had a
> >choice of leaving Siberia or some eastern block country and taking my
> >familay out too I'm not sure I'd make the 'right' choice.
> >
> >Riis doped. Who among us didn't already know that? Indurain's
> >statements are cryptic and ambiguous. If I was clean, I'd say it flat
> >out, not do this dance of words about Riis coming clean now and what
> >good would it do and how I lost the Tour, rather being beaten. What
> >kind of **** is that? Maybe Big Mig wanted out and finally stopped
> >doping in '96 to 'fake' his collapse...

>
>
> I don't want to slander people with speculation, but there are plenty
> of riders that I strongly think are doping. Could someone at RBR run
> some sort of lockbox where we make our preditctions and they are keep
> private till eight years after the rider retires and then we see who
> had the most accurate picks.


Best way to do that would be to publicly post your picks on a web page
(or on Usenet) as encrypted blocks of text. Use a private key chosen
only for that purpose.

Then, when you're ready to expose your guesses, publish the key.

If you really need, you can email your guesses to me, and I'll hide 'em
somewhere safe. Preferably, send 'em encrypted.

Warning: only one-time pads are safe from the future. As MC Frontalot
would remind us, you can't hide secrets from the future with math.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
Are we talking US race scene riders or beyond? Anyone not know about
Papp?

> I don't want to slander people with speculation, but there are plenty
> of riders that I strongly think are doping. Could someone at RBR run
> some sort of lockbox where we make our preditctions and they are keep
> private till eight years after the rider retires and then we see who
> had the most accurate picks.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
 
S

Stu Fleming

Guest
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> William Asher schreef:
>> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>> Ethical is where others are forcing their values on you, moral the
>>> other way around.

>>
>> I thought that was the difference between piety and zealotry.

>
> Ah there you go. I thought I had an original idea. You know, in primary
> school I invented binary notation.
>
>

I independently discovered Newton's method of approximating square roots
when I was 13.
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:13:36 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Are we talking US race scene riders or beyond? Anyone not know about
>Papp?


Beyond.

>> I don't want to slander people with speculation, but there are plenty
>> of riders that I strongly think are doping. Could someone at RBR run
>> some sort of lockbox where we make our preditctions and they are keep
>> private till eight years after the rider retires and then we see who
>> had the most accurate picks.


--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
H

Howard Kveck

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Riis doped. Who among us didn't already know that? Indurain's
> statements are cryptic and ambiguous. If I was clean, I'd say it flat
> out, not do this dance of words about Riis coming clean now and what
> good would it do and how I lost the Tour, rather being beaten. What
> kind of **** is that? Maybe Big Mig wanted out and finally stopped
> doping in '96 to 'fake' his collapse...


Well, Indurain never (or very rarely) got mad and it just isn't his style to be
really critical of others. I read that statement ("I lost,etc.") as a way for him to
comment on the situation without being critical of anyone. Besides, it wasn't like
Riis *just* beat him - he ended up 11th, 14+ minutes back. He'd have to say that
those other nine guys beat him too (and a couple of them are known or pretty well
suspected of doping in that era), so he really can't say much more about it.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Stu Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>> William Asher schreef:
>>> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>>> Ethical is where others are forcing their values on you, moral the
>>>> other way around.
>>>
>>> I thought that was the difference between piety and zealotry.

>>
>> Ah there you go. I thought I had an original idea. You know, in primary
>> school I invented binary notation.
>>
>>

> I independently discovered Newton's method of approximating square roots
> when I was 13.


About the same age I independently invented many fairly common mechanical
mechanisms such as a pitman arm steering mechanism.I think it is fairly
common for reasonably intelligent children to look at the world around them
and come up with the same sort of inventions other's did for the same
purposes.