bigger = faster??



steve kaspar

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Apr 28, 2009
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frenchyge
i see you're from kansas city.
you get a chance to race against steve tilford much? guys amazing isnt he?
steve
 

frost

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Oct 25, 2007
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Felt, out of curiosity, dare I ask what kind of peak torque figures you see in standing starts vs. in full speed sprints. And what kind of 5s wattage?
 

frenchyge

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steve kaspar said:
you get a chance to race against steve tilford much? guys amazing isnt he?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! If I were racing *against* him, he probably wouldn't even know it. :D

But yeah, he does show up to our Tuesday Night Worlds from time to time along with Brian Jensen and a few others, to give the rest of us something to dream about. :)
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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frost said:
Felt, out of curiosity, dare I ask what kind of peak torque figures you see in standing starts vs. in full speed sprints. And what kind of 5s wattage?

I have not intentionally tried either since getting a power meter :eek:
 

fergie

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Apr 10, 2004
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When the Australian Sprint Cycling Team were going through a successful period leading into Athens Olympics a big deal was made out of their programme that focused on peak power, peak speed and peak strength.

Training for most of the training year was down the track trying to hit new 1-6sec power (all used SRM power meters), peak speeds and in the gym trying to hit new peak strength targets. Speed endurance was only introduced in the weeks leading into major events. The success of Bayley and Meares was suggested as vindication for this programme over the more traditional periodisation models of miles, strength then speed.

But then the wheels fell off the Aussie system and we realised that success was more due to talented individuals than the programme. An understanding of the nature of sprinting and the newer demands of shorter tracks and newer events like the Keirin and Team Sprint now meant sprints were going longer and the aerobic component of the sprint events was increasing and also the recovery demands because there are more sprint events on the programme and also because at sub Elite level to get value for money travelling to events most riders will also ride the time trial, scratch race and possibly even the pursuit and points race.

So while an increase in muscle leads to an increase in strength why bother if the fastest events in cycling are not determined by which athletes have the highest strength.
 

steve kaspar

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Apr 28, 2009
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felt
he looked just like you .. i think he was 5'9 200#. its so hard to tell. all bodybuilders look the same onc e ay your level.
after a few years training onnthe bike he still looked the same. maybe he was 190# i dont know, but stll cut and ripped..

frenchyge
i raced against him may times..
he's a genetic stud..
when greg lemond insists he wants steve tilford on the world rr team, you know tilfords good..
very very very strong.
amazing that at 47-48 or however old he is, he still beats the nations best.. masters and the cat 1's-2's..
very nice guy too..
i'm not racing this year, but the previous years racing against him, its a war... espicall later on in the race. one 100 mile race, i was with him and a small group, and at mile 60 on a hot windy hard day, he was the one attacking creating the final break..
thats why he is in the hall of fame..
one of usa's all thime best.
steve
 

frost

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Oct 25, 2007
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Felt_Rider said:
I have not intentionally tried either since getting a power meter :eek:

Well it only takes about 5 seconds ;) so go ahead and give it a try!

No honestly as you are probably still having quite a bit of strength left, it would be very interesting to see how does it translate to peak torque at very slow velocity (i.e. standing start) and then on the other hand to torque and power at high velocity (sprint).

Was it so that you had some leg/back problems? If those are past now it is about the time to give it a try!! With your lifting background I am actually quite sure you will like sprint training. It is the heavy lifting of cycling :D. Just remember that this is seriously one part of cycling that requires a descent warm-up.

For standing starts, find a steepish climb (doesn't have to be more than 50 yards), with a big gear, say 53x14, almost from a complete stop (if you can track stand that is the perfect starting point) accelerate all out like you were doing the dead lift set of your lifetime. Powertap (do you have Powertap?) is not a perfect tool here to record the peak but take a look at the torque curve at WKO and pick the highest say 5 sec.

For peak power just find a convenient flat straight, sprint all out with self selected gear (obviously try different combinations). Same story here, pick the highest 5 and see the power and torque.
 

bigtruckguy3500

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Aug 5, 2009
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Kinda late to the thread, but just to give my .02, sorry if what I say has already been covered. I've always been a proponent of cross training. I'm also not a cyclist by any means.

If anyone wants to hear my opinion more, just let me know. But basically, I feel (and learned through some research and school) that there are 3 main ways to improve performance at the muscular level.

1) Increasing your body's ability to deliver nutrients (oxygen & glucose) to your muscles
2) Increase your muscle cell's ability to utilize those nutrients to produce energy rapidly
3) Increase your nervous system's ability to recruit more muscle fibers when needed

To tackle these you need to do the following for each:
1) Aerobic activity that develops the heart/lung and circulatory system that innervates the muscles (ex. Running at a medium pace/medium distance)
2) Anaerobic activity that'll increase metabolic efficiency in the muscle cells (ex. Running sprints)
3) Conduct resistance based anaerobic activity to failure (ex. Running sprints with a weight sled, or doing squats/leg press)

Now the more specialized you are in your cycling, the less likely a good mix of this will help you. Like I wouldn't think Lance Armstrong would spend much time with number 3.

Again, I'm no road cyclist. Just an amateur fitness enthusiast that used to mountain bike on the road a decent bit, have run some semi-large distances, and done a 4 year ROTC type program at Texas A&M. That's about the extent of my physical activity.

Gig'em!
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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frost said:
Well it only takes about 5 seconds ;) so go ahead and give it a try!
Just remember that this is seriously one part of cycling that requires a descent warm-up

I gave it a practice run following a warm up 55 mile group ride :D and I did learn one thing. I need new cleats.:) Only 750 watts before the left cleat broke loose during the effort.

Plus I was using my climbing bike that has a compact chain ring, but it does have a 11-28 cassette. (thank goodness because we were surprised by a hill in the route that was over 20% incline earlier in the ride.)

As I stated above in this thread I have not been able to transfer my gym strength to the bike. I don't think I am going to hit big sprinting wattage numbers of true cyclists.

Maybe I will give it try with my Felt which has a 53 and a 11 on the cassette and get some new cleats for my shoes.
 

frost

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Oct 25, 2007
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Felt_Rider said:
I gave it a practice run following a warm up 55 mile group ride :D and I did learn one thing. I need new cleats.:) Only 750 watts before the left cleat broke loose during the effort.

Plus I was using my climbing bike that has a compact chain ring, but it does have a 11-28 cassette. (thank goodness because we were surprised by a hill in the route that was over 20% incline earlier in the ride.)

As I stated above in this thread I have not been able to transfer my gym strength to the bike. I don't think I am going to hit big sprinting wattage numbers of true cyclists.

Maybe I will give it try with my Felt which has a 53 and a 11 on the cassette and get some new cleats for my shoes.

Phiiiuh! Get yourself new cleats ride away, lucky you didn't crash when the cleat broke loose!
 

Meek One

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May 5, 2004
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Felt, you can actually do it in any gear. YOu don't need a 53x11. In fact, that is a poor choice (too low cadence). Try something like a 39x13 and just try to wind it out (really try to rip the pedals off).

Some people prefer or only count bigger gears, but since we're older and if I haven't sprinted in a while I'll start in easier gears and work my way up. Think of it as squatting. You wouldn't just go and try 500, but may do a set @ 135, then 225, then 315, then 405, before trying the 500. Doing a 1st or 2nd gear wind out is a fun way to drag race your buddies.

Felt_Rider said:
I gave it a practice run following a warm up 55 mile group ride :D and I did learn one thing. I need new cleats.:) Only 750 watts before the left cleat broke loose during the effort.

Plus I was using my climbing bike that has a compact chain ring, but it does have a 11-28 cassette. (thank goodness because we were surprised by a hill in the route that was over 20% incline earlier in the ride.)

As I stated above in this thread I have not been able to transfer my gym strength to the bike. I don't think I am going to hit big sprinting wattage numbers of true cyclists.

Maybe I will give it try with my Felt which has a 53 and a 11 on the cassette and get some new cleats for my shoes.
 

frost

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Oct 25, 2007
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Felt_Rider said:
I gave it a practice run following a warm up 55 mile group ride :D and I did learn one thing. I need new cleats.:) Only 750 watts before the left cleat broke loose during the effort.

I agree with Meek that you probably get much better numbers using small gears (unless you get a change to sprint from a very fast paceline or behind a car or motorbike). My peak wattage comes at ~120 rpm. Obviously everyone is different though.

One thing I am quite sure, if you haven't been sprinting you'll gain quite much power by simply learning how to sprint.

The peak torque in the file, was it from the sprint or starting from eg. traffic lights?
 

frenchyge

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Apr 3, 2005
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frost said:
I agree with Meek that you probably get much better numbers using small gears....

For power yes, but I thought you were more interested in seeing his massive bodybuilder's torque? :confused:

Actually, if you're looking at hub torque (ala powertap), you'll see the highest numbers in the smallest gears, but for the best comparison you'd want to convert everything back to crank torque.
 

frost

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Oct 25, 2007
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frenchyge said:
For power yes, but I thought you were more interested in seeing his massive bodybuilder's torque? :confused:

Yes, yes, I was/am interested to see both torque in standing start (that would be the massive part) and also torque and power in full speed sprint.

Luckily WKO takes care of the conversion to crank torque and that's of course what is of interested.
 

Meek One

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May 5, 2004
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Sorry, I just wanted him to see a four digit 5 sec number power number. :D

frenchyge said:
For power yes, but I thought you were more interested in seeing his massive bodybuilder's torque? :confused:

Actually, if you're looking at hub torque (ala powertap), you'll see the highest numbers in the smallest gears, but for the best comparison you'd want to convert everything back to crank torque.