Bike deaths in FL ...

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Robert Siegel, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. FYI
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----
    Article published Feb 8, 2004 RETIRED UF PROFESSOR, STEPSON 2 area cyclists killed near High Springs
    The driver was arrested and charged with leaving the scene of the accident.

    A retired University of Florida professor and his stepson, who had just left Gainesville for a round-
    trip bike ride to Georgia, were killed Saturday morning when their bicycles were hit by a vehicle
    whose driver appeared impaired, state police said.

    Gainesville resident Gustavo A. Antonini, 66, and Jupiter resident William
    W. Cupples, 42, were pronounced dead at the scene.

    They had been riding north in the bike lane on State Road 45, just north of NW 46th Avenue near High
    Springs, when a 1979 Chevy pickup traveling in the same direction drifted to the right and struck
    them at 8:55 a.m., according to the Florida Highway Patrol.

    At the scene of the accident, two gray bicycle helmets rested side by side several feet from a
    mangled mess of tires and metal.

    It was Antonini's birthday on Saturday. Charles Ray Porter, 46, of Alachua, was arrested and charged
    shortly after he fled the accident and lost control of his vehicle when he struck a neighborhood
    crime watch sign, FHP Lt. Mike Burroughs said. His pickup had flipped about 3.5 miles north of the
    accident scene along SR 45.

    After complaining of an injury, Porter was taken to the North Florida Regional Medical Center where
    he was waiting to be evaluated Saturday evening. He was later booked into the Alachua County jail
    on two counts of leaving the scene of a traffic crash involving death, according to Sheriff's
    Office records.

    Burroughs said investigators are looking into whether drugs or alcohol played a part in the crash.

    "There is a suspicion of impairment," the lieutenant said. "Where that impairment was derived from
    we're not totally sure as of yet. We feel that it is a controlled substance other than alcohol."

    A blood alcohol specimen was taken and sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for
    analysis, Burroughs said. Results are expected within 10 to 14 days.

    If test results show Porter was impaired or under a controlled substance, "it is highly likely that
    we will review upgrading his charges to DUI manslaughter," Burroughs said.

    According to court records, Porter has been arrested on more than a dozen charges since 1980,
    including worthless checks, possession of marijuana, grand theft, dumping industrial substance
    and battery.

    He has been found guilty of writing a worthless check in 2001, use or possession of drug
    paraphernalia in 1995 and theft in 1995, according to records.

    "We're fortunate to have caught him this quickly," said FHP Sgt. David Roberts.

    For friends and family members of both men, however, the arrest provided little consolation. But at
    least they died doing what they loved, some said.

    "We like to think it was a fast death," said Deborah Cupples, Gustavo's stepdaughter and William's
    sister. "They were doing what they liked, and they liked being together doing it."

    Deborah Cupples, 38, said the men had been on the road early Saturday morning for a 190-mile ride
    organized by the Gainesville Cycling Club. They were part of a group of 30 or more riders headed for
    the Georgia border, with a lunch stop planned at Lake City Community College.

    "My mother was going to bring them soup and bread," she said, "but they never called."

    Instead, Cupples said, state troopers came to her mother's house in northeast Gainesville and
    reported that the two had been hit and killed.

    Antonini, who retired from UF in 2000 after 30 years with the university, was a Florida Sea Grant
    professor emeritus and expert in water management, according to a UF colleague, Bob Swett. In
    2000, he was presented with a leadership award by the governor's Council for Sustainable Florida,
    Swett said.

    His stepson worked for Florida Power and Light.

    For years, Antonini and William Cupples had turned their enjoyment of cycling into a full-
    blown passion. In retirement, Antonini had even begun putting as many as 200 miles per week
    into the pedals.

    "When we went to Atlanta over Christmas he took his bike with him," his stepdaughter said. "This was
    a real serious part of him."

    Jim Wilson, who had organized the cycling club's ride, said the accident was further proof that
    biking can be a dangerous sport.

    "You certainly have that sort of view when something like this happens."

    In 2001, the latest year for which statistics have been compiled, Alachua County had four bike
    fatalities. It was surpassed only by counties with much larger populations - Palm Beach with 11, Miami-
    Dade with 10 and Hillsborough with nine. Leon County, which is similar in size and demographics to
    Alachua, had no fatalities.

    Statistics show that Alachua County also has a high per-capita rate of bike accidents with 102 in
    2001, the lowest number in several years. But Leon County had only 41 in 2001 and has consistently
    fewer than Alachua County.

    Greg Bruno can be reached at (352) 374-5026 or [email protected] gvillesun.com.
     
    Tags:


  2. Peter

    Peter Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > He was later booked into the Alachua County jail on two counts of leaving the scene of a traffic
    > crash involving death

    That's all?!?!?

    I hope there are more charges in the offing!
     
  3. Dave Jones

    Dave Jones Guest

    Robert Siegel told us about...
    > Article published Feb 8, 2004 RETIRED UF PROFESSOR, STEPSON 2 area cyclists killed near High
    > Springs The driver was arrested and charged with leaving the scene of the accident...

    Words fail me...so sad that someone who is doing something that they love and have taken so
    completely to their heart after giving a lifetime of service can be ripped from life like this...so
    sad that a person in their prime can so quickly be taken. My thoughts are with their families,
    wishing them comfort and justice...so sad. dj
     
  4. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > FYI

    [...]

    Robert, about the bike deaths in Florida, thanks for keeping us abreast of the cycling situation
    in Florida.

    I believe Florida has one of the highest cyclist accident death rates due to motorists hitting you
    of anywhere in the country.

    I once did the Bike Florida ride and the main downside to that ride is the very heavy traffic on
    those rather narrow roads without shoulders that exist everywhere in the state. And then there are
    those here who do not think bike trails are a good idea. The simple fact is that every time you take
    your bike out on the open road you are subjecting yourself to death and injury. That is why I am
    100% in favor of bike trails everywhere in this country. I believe the Bike Florida every year tries
    to promotes the "Share the Road" philosophy, but the fact is that motorists do not want to share the
    road. Far from it. They want you as far off the road as it is possible to get. Those club cyclists
    who do not like trails are an abomination to the rest of us. Any sane and sensible cyclist will
    always prefer trails to roads.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  5. Dan Burkhart

    Dan Burkhart New Member

    Joined:
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    Those club cyclists
    who do not like trails are an abomination to the rest of us. Any sane and sensible cyclist will
    always prefer trails to roads.

    I am with you there Ed. I once heard a so called cycling advocate on the radio declaring that off road trails were a bad idea, and that cyclists must concentrate their efforts on pressing their rights as legitimate road users.
    Good thing no one was near by to hear me screaming at the radio.
    I believe off road trails should be built and expanded where ever practicable, and I would even willingly pay license and user fees to see it happen.(After all, I do believe in a user pay system)
    Dan Burkhart
    Oakville Ont
     
  6. You should read John Forester's Effective Cycling. Bike paths are no panacea for lots of
    reasons. Getting killed where your "safe" bike path intersects the road is very common. Two of
    the recent half-dozen or so deaths in my area over the last decade were on bike paths. Most of
    the run down like road kill mishaps were resultant from narrow shoulders or unlit cyclists. This
    brings up the impossibility of attempting to overlay a bike path network everywhere roads go -
    regardless of the cost.

    If you want to fight the problem, attack the roots, not the leaves. In Europe, cyclists are treated
    with respect because lots of people cycle there. Lots of people cycle there because they don't
    subsidize driving like we do - around a half-trillion a year. Gas in Europe is three times what it
    is here not because they punish drivers, but because we reward them. While they are RAISING their
    tolls and fees, making car-free city centers, etc., we are jacking up the subsidies, diverting more
    and more property, sales, and income taxes towards supporting drivers.

    Aside from the fact that this punishes the third of our society too young, old, handicapped or poor
    to drive, it makes driving WORSE, as the streets become clogged with those that otherwise wouldn't
    be driving. And then the oil runs out - brilliant.

    "Dan Burkhart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Those club cyclists who do not like trails are an abomination to the rest of us. Any sane and
    > sensible cyclist will always prefer trails to roads.
     
  7. Jay

    Jay Guest

    >Dan Burkhart at [email protected] wrote: Those club cyclists who do not like trails
    >are an abomination to
    the rest of
    > us. Any sane and sensible cyclist will always prefer
    trails to roads.

    I am
    > with you there Ed. I once heard a so called cycling advocate on
    the radio
    > declaring that off road trails were a bad idea, and that
    cyclists must
    > concentrate their efforts on pressing their rights as
    legitimate road users.
    > Good thing no one was near by to hear me
    screaming at the radio. I believe
    > off road trails should be built and
    expanded where ever practicable, and I
    > would even willingly pay license
    and user fees to see it happen.(After all, I
    > do believe in a user pay
    system) Dan Burkhart Oakville Ont

    Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
    expertise, please?
     
  8. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    "Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > You should read John Forester's Effective Cycling. Bike paths are no panacea for lots of reasons.
    > Getting killed where your "safe" bike path intersects the road is very common. Two of the recent
    > half-dozen or so deaths in my area over the last decade were on bike paths. Most of the
    run
    > down like road kill mishaps were resultant from narrow shoulders or unlit cyclists. This brings up
    > the impossibility of attempting to overlay a bike path network everywhere roads go - regardless of
    > the cost.
    >
    > If you want to fight the problem, attack the roots, not the leaves. In Europe, cyclists are
    > treated with respect because lots of people cycle there. Lots of people cycle there because they
    > don't subsidize driving
    like
    > we do - around a half-trillion a year. Gas in Europe is three times what
    it
    > is here not because they punish drivers, but because we reward them.

    No gas is three times higher over there because of taxes to pay for bloated socialistic programs, If
    that isn't that considered punishing drivers I don't know what is. Also the infrastructure of Europe
    being a much older society is designed less for the automobile than it is for walking or bicycles,
    had the US done that from the beginning it would be far different although we didn't have to due to
    the much more massive land mass which is why it is what it is today. BTW: I don't care for
    government subsidizing either

    Attacking the root today would mean trillions in infrastructure changes and in the end most of
    people in the US still live too far from work to consider biking and most areas still do not have
    public transportation close by.

    > While they are RAISING their tolls and fees, making car-free city centers, etc., we are jacking up
    > the subsidies, diverting more and more property, sales, and income taxes towards supporting
    > drivers.

    No we (the US) are getting jacked up state and local taxes because of bloated state and local
    spending on things other than transportation, and the reason they (Europe) is raising tolls and fees
    is due to previously mentioned bloated socialistic programs.

    > Aside from the fact that this punishes the third of our society too young, old, handicapped or
    > poor to drive, it makes driving WORSE, as the streets become clogged with those that otherwise
    > wouldn't be driving. And then
    the
    > oil runs out - brilliant.

    They've been saying the oil will run out soon for decades now, I recall in the early 70's we had
    only 10-15 more years of oil left...I'm still waiting and I seriously doubt I or my children will
    ever see it happen
     
  9. John Riley

    John Riley Guest

    Jay <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BC4C833E.2DBB0%[email protected]>...

    > Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
    > expertise, please?

    I often ride and enjoy trails, but I don't think cyclists should be banned from the road.

    But as far as expertise goes, Florida seems to have gone off the map. I have doubts about the
    application of Forester's "Effective Cycling" principles in that enviroment. For example, he
    minimizes overtaking accidents. But if you removed kids, drunks, wrong way riders, and flagrant
    traffic law violaters from the statistics, since I am none of those, I think the overtaking
    accidents would start to become significant in the Florida environment.

    John Riley 1 at rogers dot com
     
  10. Jon Meinecke

    Jon Meinecke Guest

    "Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> quoted a news report:
    >
    > Article published Feb 8, 2004 RETIRED UF PROFESSOR, STEPSON 2 area cyclists killed near High
    > Springs [...] Jim Wilson, who had organized the cycling club's ride, said the accident
    was
    > further proof that biking can be a dangerous sport.
    >
    > "You certainly have that sort of view when something like this happens."

    ...makes me view certainly that impaired drivers are dangerous!

    > In 2001, [...] Alachua County had four bike fatalities. [...] Palm Beach with 11, Miami-Dade with
    > 10 and Hillsborough with nine.

    I wonder what the non-bicycle traffic fatalities were in these counties...

    Jon Meinecke
     
  11. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > You should read John Forester's Effective Cycling. Bike paths are no panacea for lots of reasons.
    > Getting killed where your "safe" bike path intersects the road is very common. Two of the recent
    > half-dozen or so deaths in my area over the last decade were on bike paths.

    A cyclist has to use the common sense he was born with no matter if he is riding the roads or riding
    the trails. To get yourself killed where the trail crosses the road means that you didn't slow down
    and/or stop before crossing the road. A total no brainer!

    > Most of the run down like road kill mishaps were resultant from narrow shoulders or unlit
    > cyclists. This brings up the impossibility of attempting to overlay a bike path network
    > everywhere roads go - regardless of the cost.

    Trails are always to be preferred over roads, regardless of the conditions of the roads or the
    conditions of the trails.

    > If you want to fight the problem, attack the roots, not the leaves. In Europe, cyclists are
    > treated with respect because lots of people cycle there. Lots of people cycle there because they
    > don't subsidize driving like we do - around a half-trillion a year. Gas in Europe is three times
    > what it is here not because they punish drivers, but because we reward them. While they are
    > RAISING their tolls and fees, making car-free city centers, etc., we are jacking up the subsidies,
    > diverting more and more property, sales, and income taxes towards supporting drivers.

    Doe not Europe also have a great number of cyclist deaths resulting from motorists hitting them
    on the road?

    > Aside from the fact that this punishes the third of our society too young, old, handicapped or
    > poor to drive, it makes driving WORSE, as the streets become clogged with those that otherwise
    > wouldn't be driving. And then the oil runs out - brilliant.

    This subject thread is not about cars vs bikes. It is about how to avoid getting killed on the road
    by motorists, drunken or otherwise. I say trails are the answer. At least on a trail, if the cyclist
    gets himself killed it will have been his own fault.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  12. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    Jay <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BC4C833E.2DBB0%[email protected]>...

    > >Dan Burkhart at [email protected] wrote: Those club cyclists who do not like trails
    > >are an abomination to
    > the rest of
    > > us. Any sane and sensible cyclist will always prefer
    > trails to roads.
    >
    > I am
    > > with you there Ed. I once heard a so called cycling advocate on
    > the radio
    > > declaring that off road trails were a bad idea, and that
    > cyclists must
    > > concentrate their efforts on pressing their rights as
    > legitimate road users.
    > > Good thing no one was near by to hear me
    > screaming at the radio. I believe
    > > off road trails should be built and
    > expanded where ever practicable, and I
    > > would even willingly pay license
    > and user fees to see it happen.(After all, I
    > > do believe in a user pay
    > system) Dan Burkhart Oakville Ont
    >
    >
    > Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
    > expertise, please?

    Those two cyclists that were out riding on the road in Florida were presumably experts at what they
    were doing, but that did not prevent a drunken motorist from running them down and killing them. It
    they had been riding their bikes on a bike trail instead, they would be alive today to discuss the
    finer points of "expertness" with you.

    My advice to you is to try to learn something from each and every cyclist death on the road instead
    of blathering about being experienced and an expert. Experts are killed every day all the time for
    one reason or another regardless of their expertise. If you don't believe this, take up the hobby of
    reading books about mountain climbers and you will see what I mean.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  13. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    Mark:

    Actually the reason for most tolls and fees on highways in the US is to control congestion. This was
    one of my research fields a few years ago, so I know. In fact, there have been proposals to
    privatize some roads so the fees would go to a for-profit company and wouldn't be collected by the
    state at all. There are a few "demonstration projects" for privately owned and maintained toll
    roads, but they're rare now.

    Also, regarding bike paths, if they aren't designed with cutouts, bridges, overpasses, and other
    means for coping with intersections the odds are that they'll increase the likelihood of accidents
    rather than diminish them. And cutouts, etc. are expensive.

    Although I think bike trails are important for traversing relatively long distances (inter-city,
    etc.), and the DC-VA-MD system is about the most extensive in the country, the way to reduce
    accidents in to increase the number of cyclists so that motorists are used to seeing them, and to
    aggressively prosecute motorists who are at fault in an accident (which includes passing appropriate
    legislation). And the latter really requires an organization willing to take up and champion those
    cases. LAB refuses to do that, or at least they used to. I haven't paid attention over the last year
    as to whether a new LAB leadership may have changed the priorities.

    One of the reasons you don't hear much about automobile accidents involving motorcycles is that the
    motorcycle advocacy organizations aggressively press for prosecutions.

    --
    --Scott
    "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]_s54...
    >
    > "Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > You should read John Forester's Effective Cycling. Bike paths are no
    > > panacea for lots of reasons. Getting killed where your "safe" bike path
    > > intersects the road is very common. Two of the recent half-dozen or so
    > > deaths in my area over the last decade were on bike paths. Most of the
    > run
    > > down like road kill mishaps were resultant from narrow shoulders or
    unlit
    > > cyclists. This brings up the impossibility of attempting to overlay a
    bike
    > > path network everywhere roads go - regardless of the cost.
    > >
    > > If you want to fight the problem, attack the roots, not the leaves. In
    > > Europe, cyclists are treated with respect because lots of people cycle
    > > there. Lots of people cycle there because they don't subsidize driving
    > like
    > > we do - around a half-trillion a year. Gas in Europe is three times
    what
    > it
    > > is here not because they punish drivers, but because we reward them.
    >
    > No gas is three times higher over there because of taxes to pay for
    bloated
    > socialistic programs, If that isn't that considered punishing drivers I
    > don't know what is. Also the infrastructure of Europe being a much older
    > society is designed less for the automobile than it is for walking or
    > bicycles, had the US done that from the beginning it would be far
    different
    > although we didn't have to due to the much more massive land mass which is
    > why it is what it is today. BTW: I don't care for government subsidizing
    > either
    >
    > Attacking the root today would mean trillions in infrastructure changes
    and
    > in the end most of people in the US still live too far from work to
    consider
    > biking and most areas still do not have public transportation close by.
    >
    > > While
    > > they are RAISING their tolls and fees, making car-free city centers,
    etc.,
    > > we are jacking up the subsidies, diverting more and more property,
    sales,
    > > and income taxes towards supporting drivers.
    >
    > No we (the US) are getting jacked up state and local taxes because of
    > bloated state and local spending on things other than transportation, and
    > the reason they (Europe) is raising tolls and fees is due to previously
    > mentioned bloated socialistic programs.
    >
    > > Aside from the fact that this punishes the third of our society too
    young,
    > > old, handicapped or poor to drive, it makes driving WORSE, as the
    streets
    > > become clogged with those that otherwise wouldn't be driving. And then
    > the
    > > oil runs out - brilliant.
    >
    > They've been saying the oil will run out soon for decades now, I recall in
    > the early 70's we had only 10-15 more years of oil left...I'm still
    waiting
    > and I seriously doubt I or my children will ever see it happen
     
  14. Beach Runner

    Beach Runner Guest

    I can ride my recumbent on trails, but they are rough and I can't ride my road bike on the trails.
    All it takes is a foot of extra concrete on the side of a road to make biking relatively safe.

    Bob

    john riley wrote:

    >Jay <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BC4C833E.2DBB0%[email protected]>...
    >
    >
    >
    >>Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
    >>expertise, please?
    >>
    >>
    >
    >I often ride and enjoy trails, but I don't think cyclists should be banned from the road.
    >
    >But as far as expertise goes, Florida seems to have gone off the map. I have doubts about the
    >application of Forester's "Effective Cycling" principles in that enviroment. For example, he
    >minimizes overtaking accidents. But if you removed kids, drunks, wrong way riders, and flagrant
    >traffic law violaters from the statistics, since I am none of those, I think the overtaking
    >accidents would start to become significant in the Florida environment.
    >
    >John Riley 1 at rogers dot com
     
  15. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,604
    Likes Received:
    339
     
  16. On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:45:52 -0500, "Freewheeling"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >LAB refuses to do that, or at least they used to. I haven't paid attention over the last year as to
    >whether a new LAB leadership may have changed the priorities.

    Hardly. Pushing for federal funding for bike facility projects allow them to rub shoulders with
    federal officials and people that sell bikes (whether they are used or not is irrelevant). LAB
    evinces little interest in actually promoting on-road cycling, and it is rare they take the time to
    actually speak up in defense of on-road cyclists or in protest of attacks on on-road cyclists.

    The hilarious part (if you are into sick humor) is that they pretty much take the position that on-
    road cycling advocacy falls into local advocacy (and they do little in Virginia or Maryland and the
    Washington Area Bicyclist Association out-muscles them in their current 'home state' of DC. As LAB
    has no real program to support local advocates, much less have a LAB local advocacy infrastructure,
    this pretty much leaves them out - which is where they want to be.

    On-road advocacy, local and national, is thankless compared to pushing for bike path funding, and it
    produces few of the photo ops that their pet senators and paid sponsors like to have. So do hold
    your breath waiting for the current crop of LAB officials to do anything of consequence.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels... LAB Life member from before some
    of the current officials were born...
     
  17. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]_s54>...

    > "Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    [...]
    > > Aside from the fact that this punishes the third of our society too young, old, handicapped or
    > > poor to drive, it makes driving WORSE, as the streets become clogged with those that otherwise
    > > wouldn't be driving. And then
    > the oil runs out - brilliant.
    >
    > They've been saying the oil will run out soon for decades now, I recall in the early 70's we had
    > only 10-15 more years of oil left...I'm still waiting and I seriously doubt I or my children will
    > ever see it happen.

    Mark, I have been waiting all of my life for the oil to run out too. It has got to run out some day
    as there is only so much of it and nature isn't making it anymore. But I believe there will be
    scientific breakthroughs and technological fixes for the problem so that it won't matter when the
    oil does eventually run out.

    Admittedly it is getting harder and harder to get it. It doesn't just bubble out of the ground
    anymore like it used to in Texas and Oklahoma. But of one thing I am very sure, bicycles will never
    replace motorized vehicles. We humans are way too lazy to be pedaling except for sport and
    recreation. When we have to go someplace, like to work for instance, we will always want to drive.
    And the whole world is exactly like us in this respect. Even the Dutch I suspect!

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  18. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    "Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Mark:
    >
    > Actually the reason for most tolls and fees on highways in the US is to control congestion. This
    > was one of my research fields a few years ago,
    so
    > I know. In fact, there have been proposals to privatize some roads so the fees would go to a for-
    > profit company and wouldn't be collected by the
    state
    > at all. There are a few "demonstration projects" for privately owned and maintained toll roads,
    > but they're rare now.

    As you have researched it I'll go for that explaination

    > Also, regarding bike paths, if they aren't designed with cutouts, bridges, overpasses, and other
    > means for coping with intersections the odds are
    that
    > they'll increase the likelihood of accidents rather than diminish them.
    And
    > cutouts, etc. are expensive.

    Yup which is why it will end up costing more and in the end taking more away from taxpayers

    > Although I think bike trails are important for traversing relatively long distances (inter-city,
    > etc.), and the DC-VA-MD system is about the most extensive in the country, the way to reduce
    > accidents in to increase the number of cyclists so that motorists are used to seeing them, and to
    > aggressively prosecute motorists who are at fault in an accident (which includes passing
    > appropriate legislation).

    Why wouldn't this also cause a sharp rise in cyclist/car accidents? You know what will happen then,
    we'd get an earful from focus groups about how dangerous things are then you'd see congress enacting
    more useless laws etc etc

    Here in the Dallas/Ft Worth areas bike paths are in few areas (mostly parks) and if they did exist
    it would still be a long drive (in some cases 30-40 miles?) one way to work, now if I'm going to go
    that far and I'm the average joe I'd think I'd rather go in a car, expecially since its well into
    the 100's during summer afternoons.

    People drive to work mostly because thats what they prefer to do
     
  19. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    Easy to say but sometimes hard if not impossible to do and expensive if it could be done, around
    here they now plan for wider areas when building a road however much of that design is in case they
    need to expand the road later not for bike paths

    The US for the most part treats bicycling as a hobby and not as a requirement, we do this because we
    CAN do it.

    "Beach Runner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I can ride my recumbent on trails, but they are rough and I can't ride my road bike on the trails.
    > All it takes is a foot of extra concrete on the side of a road to make biking relatively safe.
    >
    > Bob
    >
    > john riley wrote:
    >
    > >Jay <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<BC4C833E.2DBB0%[email protected]>...
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >>Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
    > >>expertise, please?
    > >>
    > >>
    > >
    > >I often ride and enjoy trails, but I don't think cyclists should be banned from the road.
    > >
    > >But as far as expertise goes, Florida seems to have gone off the map. I have doubts about the
    > >application of Forester's "Effective Cycling" principles in that enviroment. For example, he
    > >minimizes overtaking accidents. But if you removed kids, drunks, wrong way riders, and flagrant
    > >traffic law violaters from the statistics, since I am none of those, I think the overtaking
    > >accidents would start to become significant in the Florida environment.
    > >
    > >John Riley 1 at rogers dot com
    > >
     
  20. The point isn't whether we will become Europe or not, we won't. The point is subsidizing anything
    that doesn't clearly help our society (education, law enforcement, etc.) is bad. Beyond being
    counter to capitalism and democracy, diverting our dollars away from the young, old, handicapped and
    poor is terrible and hypocritical.

    "jhuskey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I do not believe the US will ever evolve into a cycling area like Europe. Our population is not
    > mentally geared that way and mainly because of the differences in distances traveled. I
    > personally have a 40 minute drive each day both ways. That would translate into about a 2 hour
    > ride for me each way every day and a lot of people have more. For this reason I don't see the
    > trend from automobile transportation changing. "Europe where 200 miles is a long way". "The USA
    > where 200 years is a long time".
    >
    >
    >
    > --
     
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