Bike deaths in FL ...



F

Freewheeling

Guest
Weeelllll, there are now some extremely coherent reasons for reducing oil consumption, even if
Arianna Huffington and Bill Maher *did* point them out. If only Arianna had kept her piehole shut
the issue might have gained some purchase. Put wise words in the mouth of a fool and they're bound
to sound foolish. There oughta be a law.

--
--Scott
"Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The point isn't whether we will become Europe or not, we won't. The point
> is subsidizing anything that doesn't clearly help our society (education,
> law enforcement, etc.) is bad. Beyond being counter to capitalism and
> democracy, diverting our dollars away from the young, old, handicapped and
> poor is terrible and hypocritical.
>
> "jhuskey" <u[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I do not believe the US will ever evolve into a cycling area like
> > Europe. Our population is not mentally geared that way and mainly
> > because of the differences in distances traveled. I personally have a 40
> > minute drive each day both ways. That would translate into about a 2
> > hour ride for me each way every day and a lot of people have more. For
> > this reason I don't see the trend from automobile transportation
> > changing. "Europe where 200 miles is a long way". "The USA where 200
> > years is a long time".
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Weeelllll, there are now some extremely coherent reasons for reducing oil consumption, even if
> Arianna Huffington and Bill Maher *did* point them out. If only Arianna had kept her piehole shut
> the issue might have gained some purchase. Put wise words in the mouth of a fool and they're bound
> to sound foolish. There oughta be a law.

"There are more fools in the world than there are people."
- Heinrich Heine

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> On 11 Feb 2004 01:38:37 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
>
> >Shwackman, I am always assuming a bike trail that is not crowded. Come to Minnesota if you would
> >like to experience paradise on a bike trail.
>
> Interestingly, I monitor another newsgroup that refers to Minnesota's liberals as "Bike Path
> Fundamentalists".

I believe Minnesota may very well have the best bike trail system in the country. Almost all of them
are paved and once you get away from the Twin Cities they are not at all crowded, especially on
weekdays. The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that
is because it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.

Once you have truly enjoyed what a great bike trail can do for you, you will never complain about
them again. People come from the surrounding states simply to ride the bike trails that we have here
in Minnesota. Unfortunately, right about now it is not even possible to step out of the house let
alone ride a bike it is so cold and snowy. But Minnesota is a paradise in the summer time and the
biking is great because of all of our great bike trails.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Z

Zippy The Pinhe

Guest
On 12 Feb 2004 10:30:36 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

>The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that is because
>it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.

Haven't been there for awhile. How is that little town doing (Lanesboro?) where the Police Chief set
a fire so that he could put the fire out and impress his girlfriend with his heroism but then the
fire spread and burned down half the tourist attractions.
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> On 12 Feb 2004 10:30:36 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
>
> >The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that is
> >because it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.
>
> Haven't been there for awhile. How is that little town doing (Lanesboro?) where the Police Chief
> set a fire so that he could put the fire out and impress his girlfriend with his heroism but then
> the fire spread and burned down half the tourist attractions.

Lanesboro has become pretty much a tourist trap by now. The bike trail was just about the biggest
thing that ever happened to the town. On summer weekends there can be thousands of cyclists pouring
through there. They still don't have any police force worth a darn.

But tourist towns are the same the world over. I feel the same way about Lanesboro as I do about
towns like Aspen or Breckenridge. They can be pleasant places to pass through, but you do not ever
want to spend any amount of time in them.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
W

Wheel Doctor

Guest
Geez Ed..lighten up. How about a tadpole trike fitted with some skis on the front wheels and a
studded tire on the rear. Snowmobile suit and yer ready to go. St. Michaels Maryland has no bike
trail...yet but it sure is a tourist trap and I trap tourists. Al and I were discussing various
tecniques for riding thru town during the tourist season. I take a full lane and do 20 the speed
limit is 25. The fun comes in when you pay close attention to the pedestrians in the crosswalks for
which you must stop and the jaywalkers. Or worse the gawking tourists in cars slamming on thei
brakes for one reason or another. I shouldn't complain since this stretch is less than a mile then
its non stop smooth wide shoulder for 13 miles and home,

Jude

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > On 12 Feb 2004 10:30:36 -0800, edol[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
> >
> > >The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that is
> > >because it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.
> >
> > Haven't been there for awhile. How is that little town doing (Lanesboro?) where the Police Chief
> > set a fire so that he could put the fire out and impress his girlfriend with his heroism but
> > then the fire spread and burned down half the tourist attractions.
>
> Lanesboro has become pretty much a tourist trap by now. The bike trail was just about the biggest
> thing that ever happened to the town. On summer weekends there can be thousands of cyclists
> pouring through there. They still don't have any police force worth a darn.
>
> But tourist towns are the same the world over. I feel the same way about Lanesboro as I do about
> towns like Aspen or Breckenridge. They can be pleasant places to pass through, but you do not ever
> want to spend any amount of time in them.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
> Geez Ed..lighten up. How about a tadpole trike fitted with some skis on the front wheels and a
> studded tire on the rear. Snowmobile suit and yer ready to go.
>
> St. Michaels Maryland has no bike trail...yet but it sure is a tourist trap and I trap
> tourists. Al and I were discussing various techniques for riding thru town during the
> tourist season. I take a full lane and do 20 the speed limit is 25. The fun comes in when
> you pay close attention to the pedestrians in the crosswalks for which you must stop and
> the jaywalkers. Or worse the gawking tourists in cars slamming on their brakes for one
> reason or another. I shouldn't complain since this stretch is less than a mile then its
> non stop smooth wide shoulder for 13 miles and home,
>
> Jude

Yes, Jude, it is all fun and games. I have been there and done it! Normally, I like to take in the
tourist scene for a few hours, and then I like to get out of town. The true beauty of cycling is to
be found out in the countryside on the trails in solitude and meditation. At night I like to be
camped all by myself seemingly a million miles from my fellow man. Some tell me that I am anti-
social, but that is not true. I do like my fellow man but only one at a time. When they are massed I
want to always be elsewhere.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 

Dan Burkhart

New Member
Nov 27, 2003
333
0
0
69
Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
expertise, please? [/B][/QUOTE]

Cycling expertise??? What about common sense?
It makes no sense to me that the cycling advocates oppose off road pathways. If your objective is to get large numbers of people to commute by bicycle, forcing them to share the roads with much larger and faster vehicles is not the way.
I have spent a lot of time cycling ( recreationally ) in Calgary Alberta, a city with an excellent network of trails which will take you to any corner of the city where a short on street ride will take you to your place of work or residence. I can tell you that, early in the morning , if you ride west on the Bow river trail, you will be met by litterally swarms of cyclists making their way from the suberbs to the city centre. I wonder how many of those folks would ride to work were it not for those pathways. Even in winter, a surprising number of people are riding.
As for the argument that more accidents take place at road crossings, that is clearly an education and awareness issue, and one of adequate signage.
I have also cycled in Europe, where contrary to what I read somewhere in this thread, there are some great off road trails. ( Both inter and intra city)
Vienna for example has separate bike and pedestrian lanes with multi phase signals to accomodate all.
It is true that drivers there are more alert and aware (generally) than they are here, and they certainly are more accomodating to cyclists, But the way to acceptance is not by getting in the face of those who use ( and pay for) the roads with a shrill " we are green, so we are morally superior" message.
Dan Burkhart
Oakville Ont
 
W

Wheel Doctor

Guest
Ed, Once you leane the town its very nice riding. Other parts of the county are even nicer. On a
summer Sunday AM I have an area where for 30 miles you may not encounter a car at all. Where I live
is quite quiet most of the time. Although the county has more coastline than California because its
all tidal and non-tidal creeks, coves and bay, you can not ride directly along it in very many
places. Still all in all its a very senic area rich in colonial, Civil War and Cheseapeake Bay water
travel and seafood industry lore. The island where I live is in... say 10 years going to be over
populated with homes built for the Baltimore and DC retiree and second home crowd. Its unavoidable.
So when it's too much for me I will pull up a go.....possibly to the desert or hills of WV,KY or AK.
Minnesota is out of the question. Too cold...Burrrrr. I may be up there sometime in the next 90 or
so days. Wife's mom is not doing well. She is 92.

Jude

"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> > Geez Ed..lighten up. How about a tadpole trike fitted with some skis on the front wheels and a
> > studded tire on the rear. Snowmobile suit and
yer
> > ready to go.
> >
> > St. Michaels Maryland has no bike trail...yet but it sure is a tourist trap and I trap
> > tourists. Al and I were discussing various
techniques
> > for riding thru town during the tourist season. I take a full lane and
do 20
> > the speed limit is 25. The fun comes in when you pay close attention to
the
> > pedestrians in the crosswalks for which you must stop and the
jaywalkers. Or
> > worse the gawking tourists in cars slamming on their brakes for one
reason or
> > another. I shouldn't complain since this stretch is less than a mile
then
> > its non stop smooth wide shoulder for 13 miles and home,
> >
> > Jude
>
> Yes, Jude, it is all fun and games. I have been there and done it! Normally, I like to take in the
> tourist scene for a few hours, and then I like to get out of town. The true beauty of cycling is
> to be found out in the countryside on the trails in solitude and meditation. At night I like to be
> camped all by myself seemingly a million miles from my fellow man. Some tell me that I am anti-
> social, but that is not true. I do like my fellow man but only one at a time. When they are massed
> I want to always be elsewhere.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 

watsonglenn

New Member
Apr 24, 2003
111
0
0
61
I am very sure, bicycles will never replace motorized vehicles. We humans are way too lazy to be pedaling except for sport and
recreation. When we have to go someplace, like to work for instance, we will always want to drive.>>


If you a man is too poor to drive a car to work then he will ride bus, a bike or walk or he will starve. That is what humans do.
 

watsonglenn

New Member
Apr 24, 2003
111
0
0
61
Sorry about that: I meant to say:

If a man is too poor to drive a car then he will ride bus, a bike or walk, or he will starve. A man does what he has to do.
 
F

Freewheeling

Guest
Dan:

There's certainly some advantage to having bike paths, especially in built up metro areas with heavy
traffic. It's just that if you're going to build them and ignore the serious safety issues at
intersections you probably shouldn't bother. (This depends on how many intersections there are, of
course.) And there *is* a tradeoff, because the more cyclists that motorists are used to seeing on
the roadways the safer cyclists will be. Getting them off the roads sets up more dangerous
cicumstances should they have to get back *on* the road to get somewhere. (And it's almost a
certainty that they'll have to ride at least part of the way to their destination on public roads.)
The point that some of us are making is that "bike advocacy" involves BOTH building good well-
designed bikeways AND taking an aggressive stance toward motorists who injure cyclists through
negligence. The latter almost NEVER happens. I can give examples, but it gets tedious.

--
--Scott
"Dan Burkhart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could
> you clarify your cycling expertise, please?
>
> Cycling expertise??? What about common sense? It makes no sense to me
> that the cycling advocates oppose off road pathways. If your
> objective is to get large numbers of people to commute by bicycle,
> forcing them to share the roads with much larger and faster vehicles
> is not the way. I have spent a lot of time cycling ( recreationally )
> in Calgary Alberta, a city with an excellent network of trails which
> will take you to any corner of the city where a short on street ride
> will take you to your place of work or residence. I can tell you
> that, early in the morning , if you ride west on the Bow river trail,
> you will be met by litterally swarms of cyclists making their way
> from the suberbs to the city centre. I wonder how many of those folks
> would ride to work were it not for those pathways. Even in winter, a
> surprising number of people are riding. As for the argument that more
> accidents take place at road crossings, that is clearly an education
> and awareness issue, and one of adequate signage. I have also cycled
> in Europe, where contrary to what I read somewhere in this thread,
> there are some great off road trails. ( Both inter and intra city)
> Vienna for example has separate bike and pedestrian lanes with multi
> phase signals to accomodate all. It is true that drivers there are
> more alert and aware (generally) than they are here, and they
> certainly are more accomodating to cyclists, But the way to
> acceptance is not by getting in the face of those who use ( and pay
> for) the roads with a shrill " we are green, so we are morally
> superior" message. Dan Burkhart Oakville Ont
>
>
>
> --
 

watsonglenn

New Member
Apr 24, 2003
111
0
0
61
Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than it is to 'cross' a street. I would love to ride my bike to work but carrying two kids to daycare and school plus fighting the traffic is just too dangerous. Of course bike trails would not help much either unless they were very extensive.
 
F

Freewheeling

Guest
"Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than it is to 'cross'
a street."

Unfortunately that's not true. The variable you're omitting is the awareness of motorists, and once
they see you they're probably not going to hit you. Whether they see or notice you depends on a
number of factors, but if you suddenly cross a roadway there's virtually no chance that they will
have gradually come upon you, so it's a VERY DANGEROUS situation. I don't know the stats, but my
guess is that there are probably at least as many accidents at these bikepath/roadway intersections
as anywhere else. If you're going to use bike paths (and I do) be VERY CAREFUL at intersections.
That'll at least improve your odds.

The best options are, of course, cutouts or overpasses. But even if these are the rule (and they've
very expensive) there's still the tradeoff in the sense that if you're off the highway motorists are
unused to dealing with cyclists. When you get back on you'll either **** them off or you'll surprise
them somehow (and not in a 'good' way).

Bike paths have their place. In the DC area we have one of the most extensive bike path systems
anywhere in the country. You can travel from downtown DC to Annapolis with only about 20 miles
on public roads. (There's a Washington Area Bicyclist's Association ride that does this every
year.) There are tons of people that use the DC bikepath system to commute to work inside the
beltway, because driving your car is a pain in the bumpkiss, and the bike paths are very
convenient and probably go more places than the metro (subway). But there are still numerous
places where you'd better have your wits about you, or you're courting disaster (especially by
the Reagan (National) Airport).

But it's a GREAT RIDE! And above Alexandria the Mt. Vernon Trail is very scenic, going right along
the Potomac. We're really very blessed with a good bike trail system.

--
--Scott
"watsonglenn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2MuXb.17168$%[email protected]...
> Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than
> it is to 'cross' a street. I would love to ride my bike to work but
> carrying two kids to daycare and school plus fighting the traffic is
> just too dangerous. Of course bike trails would not help much either
> unless they were very extensive.
>
>
>
> --
 

watsonglenn

New Member
Apr 24, 2003
111
0
0
61
Unfortunately that's not true. ..... I don't know the stats>>>

I don't either but I do know my mother told me to look both ways before I cross the street. If I get hit crossing the street it is unlikely to be the car's fault.

my guess is that there are probably at least as many accidents at these bikepath/roadway intersections
as anywhere else.

I would be astonded to find this to be true. but if it is then the fault ies with the bikes.


If you're going to use bike paths (and I do) be VERY CAREFUL at intersections. That'll at least improve your odds.>>

Good advise. In my city of Huntsville bike paths are in their infancy but we have two nice if short ones. I can't imagine how they would route one through the city but it sure would be nice. What they have built was controversial because homeowners in the area complained they did not want people walking through their back yard.
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Sorry about that: I meant to say:
>
> If a man is too poor to drive a car then he will ride bus, a bike or walk, or he will starve. A
> man does what he has to do.

My small town here on the high prairie of southern Minnesota is filling up with emigrants from
Mexico who come here to work in the local meatpacking plant (the locals won't work there because the
work is too hard and the pay is too small). The very first thing they do once they get settled is to
buy a brand new automobile. Then, because they do not know how to drive, they lose their driver's
license and you see them around town on bicycles. But I assure you, that is only a stop gap measure.
They will want their cars above all else in life.

And these are all poor people and I think most of them are aliens besides. You are right about a man
doing what he has to do, and they all think they have to be driving a car. The Chinese and the
Indians won't be any different. The only thing that will stop it is when we have all choked to death
on all the fumes we will be emitting from our automobile exhausts.

I saw an interesting film about the streets and roads of Iraq the other night on PBS. As poor as
that country is they seem to have an inordinate number of motor vehicles and no gas to put in them -
and so they are pushing their vehicles around hunting for gas. The houses along the roadside appear
to be nothing but hovels, but the cars and trucks are about the same as you would see anywhere in
the world. Gentlemen! I rest my case!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Ed, Once you leane the town its very nice riding. Other parts of the county are even nicer. On a
> summer Sunday AM I have an area where for 30 miles you may not encounter a car at all. Where I
> live is quite quiet most of the time. Although the county has more coastline than California
> because its all tidal and non-tidal creeks, coves and bay, you can not ride directly along it in
> very many places. Still all in all its a very scenic area rich in colonial, Civil War and
> Chesapeake Bay water travel and seafood industry lore. The island where I live is in... say 10
> years going to be over populated with homes built for the Baltimore and DC retiree and second home
> crowd. Its unavoidable. So when it's too much for me I will pull up a go.....possibly to the
> desert or hills of WV,KY or AK. Minnesota is out of the question. Too cold...Burrrrr. I may be up
> there sometime in the next 90 or so days. Wife's mom is not doing well. She is 92.

Jude, I know what you are talking about with respect to the entire East Coast from Portland
to Norfolk. It is filling up and will one day be entirely urbanized, just one suburb flowing
into another.

As you look around the country for more open spaces, there are still plenty of places to go, but one
thing that kicks in as you get older is to be able to access certain services and conveniences that
only come with a certain level of human habitation. As you are no doubt discovering with your mother
in law you need to have certain services available. Minnesota has this infrastructure in place.
There are parts of the Dakotas for instance that do not have this infrastructure in place anymore if
they ever did. And so as we get older we are much more restricted in where we can live than if we
were young and healthy.

But you are sure right about Minnesota being too darn cold. The place was originally settled for its
resources, mainly the good prairie soil for farming where I live (the soil is so black it is blue -
hence the town named Blue Earth in Southern Minnesota). But Hells Bells, if you are just going to
work on a production line in a factory, you are far better off almost anyplace else than here. I can
also think of about a zillion places where you would be better off for retirement purposes too, but
the trouble is we all of us get trapped by one thing or another in the course of living our lives in
a given locale.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... [...]

> Good advise. In my city of Huntsville bike paths are in their infancy but we have two nice if
> short ones. I can't imagine how they would route one through the city but it sure would be nice.
> What they have built was controversial because homeowners in the area complained they did not want
> people walking through their back yard.

That is an almost universal problem about people not wanting any bike trails near them. It all stems
from nothing but rank selfishness. I live in the downtown area of my town and I have got people
constantly cutting across my front yard and my back yard for use as a shortcut. It does not bother
me. I figure that is part of the price that you pay for living in society.

Most people soon discover that a bike path actually enhances their property and does not interfere
much with their privacy. We should never listen to the argument that a bike path will detract from
property value and take away anyone's privacy. If you want that much privacy stay in your house and
maybe lock yourself in a closet. Those who are so enamored of privacy that they do not want to have
any other people around them should takes themselves to a wilderness where they can be all by
themselves and see how they like it.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> "Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than it is to 'cross' a
> street."
>
> Unfortunately that's not true. The variable you're omitting is the awareness of motorists, and
> once they see you they're probably not going to hit you. Whether they see or notice you depends on
> a number of factors, but if you suddenly cross a roadway there's virtually no chance that they
> will have gradually come upon you, so it's a VERY DANGEROUS situation. I don't know the stats, but
> my guess is that there are probably at least as many accidents at these bikepath/roadway
> intersections as anywhere else. If you're going to use bike paths (and I do) be VERY CAREFUL at
> intersections. That'll at least improve your odds.

Just like an intellectual to make an argument against common sense. Sorry, Freewheeling, but you
need to rethink this.

The awareness of motorists is not something you can depend upon. They may be unaware, drunk, or
otherwise seriously impaired in one way or another. It is far better to be way, way off the road on
your own pathway. Cars and bicycles don't go together at all despite what some of us would like.
Like pedestrians with their walks, we cyclists need our own paths.

The intersection problem is a no brainer. You slow down and you come to a complete stop if you can't
see what is approaching you at an intersection. Any cyclist who does not do this is a moron.
Unfortunately, we have more than our fair share of this species also. I only get concerned about
these matters when young kids are involved who may not know any better or have the necessary
awareness of traffic.

Only a blind man should ever have any problem crossing a street or conflicting with a motor vehicle
at an intersection. Slow down, stop, look, listen - and be safe!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:14:25 GMT, "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]_s54>:

>gas is three times higher over there because of taxes to pay for bloated socialistic programs

Not quite. Motoring taxation in most European countries either just about meets the costs of private
motoring to the economy, or falls well short, according to whose estimates you read. Of course that
gets skewed a bit as we now have to pay the bill for an oil-access war.

And our "bloated socialistic programs" include a health service where if you get sick, you get
treated. Nobody checks for your medical card when the ambulance arrives at a crash. Also literacy
rates are higher than in the US due to good quality state schools.

I quite like that sort of bloated socialistic system.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at the University of Washington.