Bike deaths in FL ...

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Robert Siegel, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    Weeelllll, there are now some extremely coherent reasons for reducing oil consumption, even if
    Arianna Huffington and Bill Maher *did* point them out. If only Arianna had kept her piehole shut
    the issue might have gained some purchase. Put wise words in the mouth of a fool and they're bound
    to sound foolish. There oughta be a law.

    --
    --Scott
    "Robert Haston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > The point isn't whether we will become Europe or not, we won't. The point
    > is subsidizing anything that doesn't clearly help our society (education,
    > law enforcement, etc.) is bad. Beyond being counter to capitalism and
    > democracy, diverting our dollars away from the young, old, handicapped and
    > poor is terrible and hypocritical.
    >
    > "jhuskey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > I do not believe the US will ever evolve into a cycling area like
    > > Europe. Our population is not mentally geared that way and mainly
    > > because of the differences in distances traveled. I personally have a 40
    > > minute drive each day both ways. That would translate into about a 2
    > > hour ride for me each way every day and a lot of people have more. For
    > > this reason I don't see the trend from automobile transportation
    > > changing. "Europe where 200 miles is a long way". "The USA where 200
    > > years is a long time".
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    >
     


  2. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Weeelllll, there are now some extremely coherent reasons for reducing oil consumption, even if
    > Arianna Huffington and Bill Maher *did* point them out. If only Arianna had kept her piehole shut
    > the issue might have gained some purchase. Put wise words in the mouth of a fool and they're bound
    > to sound foolish. There oughta be a law.

    "There are more fools in the world than there are people."
    - Heinrich Heine

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  3. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > On 11 Feb 2004 01:38:37 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
    >
    > >Shwackman, I am always assuming a bike trail that is not crowded. Come to Minnesota if you would
    > >like to experience paradise on a bike trail.
    >
    > Interestingly, I monitor another newsgroup that refers to Minnesota's liberals as "Bike Path
    > Fundamentalists".

    I believe Minnesota may very well have the best bike trail system in the country. Almost all of them
    are paved and once you get away from the Twin Cities they are not at all crowded, especially on
    weekdays. The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that
    is because it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.

    Once you have truly enjoyed what a great bike trail can do for you, you will never complain about
    them again. People come from the surrounding states simply to ride the bike trails that we have here
    in Minnesota. Unfortunately, right about now it is not even possible to step out of the house let
    alone ride a bike it is so cold and snowy. But Minnesota is a paradise in the summer time and the
    biking is great because of all of our great bike trails.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  4. On 12 Feb 2004 10:30:36 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

    >The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that is because
    >it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.

    Haven't been there for awhile. How is that little town doing (Lanesboro?) where the Police Chief set
    a fire so that he could put the fire out and impress his girlfriend with his heroism but then the
    fire spread and burned down half the tourist attractions.
     
  5. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > On 12 Feb 2004 10:30:36 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
    >
    > >The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that is
    > >because it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.
    >
    > Haven't been there for awhile. How is that little town doing (Lanesboro?) where the Police Chief
    > set a fire so that he could put the fire out and impress his girlfriend with his heroism but then
    > the fire spread and burned down half the tourist attractions.

    Lanesboro has become pretty much a tourist trap by now. The bike trail was just about the biggest
    thing that ever happened to the town. On summer weekends there can be thousands of cyclists pouring
    through there. They still don't have any police force worth a darn.

    But tourist towns are the same the world over. I feel the same way about Lanesboro as I do about
    towns like Aspen or Breckenridge. They can be pleasant places to pass through, but you do not ever
    want to spend any amount of time in them.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  6. Wheel Doctor

    Wheel Doctor Guest

    Geez Ed..lighten up. How about a tadpole trike fitted with some skis on the front wheels and a
    studded tire on the rear. Snowmobile suit and yer ready to go. St. Michaels Maryland has no bike
    trail...yet but it sure is a tourist trap and I trap tourists. Al and I were discussing various
    tecniques for riding thru town during the tourist season. I take a full lane and do 20 the speed
    limit is 25. The fun comes in when you pay close attention to the pedestrians in the crosswalks for
    which you must stop and the jaywalkers. Or worse the gawking tourists in cars slamming on thei
    brakes for one reason or another. I shouldn't complain since this stretch is less than a mile then
    its non stop smooth wide shoulder for 13 miles and home,

    Jude

    "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Zippy the Pinhead <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > > On 12 Feb 2004 10:30:36 -0800, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
    > >
    > > >The Root River system in SE Minnesota can get crowded on weekends I must admit, but that is
    > > >because it is relatively close to the Twin Cities and Rochester.
    > >
    > > Haven't been there for awhile. How is that little town doing (Lanesboro?) where the Police Chief
    > > set a fire so that he could put the fire out and impress his girlfriend with his heroism but
    > > then the fire spread and burned down half the tourist attractions.
    >
    > Lanesboro has become pretty much a tourist trap by now. The bike trail was just about the biggest
    > thing that ever happened to the town. On summer weekends there can be thousands of cyclists
    > pouring through there. They still don't have any police force worth a darn.
    >
    > But tourist towns are the same the world over. I feel the same way about Lanesboro as I do about
    > towns like Aspen or Breckenridge. They can be pleasant places to pass through, but you do not ever
    > want to spend any amount of time in them.
    >
    > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  7. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    > Geez Ed..lighten up. How about a tadpole trike fitted with some skis on the front wheels and a
    > studded tire on the rear. Snowmobile suit and yer ready to go.
    >
    > St. Michaels Maryland has no bike trail...yet but it sure is a tourist trap and I trap
    > tourists. Al and I were discussing various techniques for riding thru town during the
    > tourist season. I take a full lane and do 20 the speed limit is 25. The fun comes in when
    > you pay close attention to the pedestrians in the crosswalks for which you must stop and
    > the jaywalkers. Or worse the gawking tourists in cars slamming on their brakes for one
    > reason or another. I shouldn't complain since this stretch is less than a mile then its
    > non stop smooth wide shoulder for 13 miles and home,
    >
    > Jude

    Yes, Jude, it is all fun and games. I have been there and done it! Normally, I like to take in the
    tourist scene for a few hours, and then I like to get out of town. The true beauty of cycling is to
    be found out in the countryside on the trails in solitude and meditation. At night I like to be
    camped all by myself seemingly a million miles from my fellow man. Some tell me that I am anti-
    social, but that is not true. I do like my fellow man but only one at a time. When they are massed I
    want to always be elsewhere.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  8. Dan Burkhart

    Dan Burkhart New Member

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    Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could you clarify your cycling
    expertise, please? [/B][/QUOTE]

    Cycling expertise??? What about common sense?
    It makes no sense to me that the cycling advocates oppose off road pathways. If your objective is to get large numbers of people to commute by bicycle, forcing them to share the roads with much larger and faster vehicles is not the way.
    I have spent a lot of time cycling ( recreationally ) in Calgary Alberta, a city with an excellent network of trails which will take you to any corner of the city where a short on street ride will take you to your place of work or residence. I can tell you that, early in the morning , if you ride west on the Bow river trail, you will be met by litterally swarms of cyclists making their way from the suberbs to the city centre. I wonder how many of those folks would ride to work were it not for those pathways. Even in winter, a surprising number of people are riding.
    As for the argument that more accidents take place at road crossings, that is clearly an education and awareness issue, and one of adequate signage.
    I have also cycled in Europe, where contrary to what I read somewhere in this thread, there are some great off road trails. ( Both inter and intra city)
    Vienna for example has separate bike and pedestrian lanes with multi phase signals to accomodate all.
    It is true that drivers there are more alert and aware (generally) than they are here, and they certainly are more accomodating to cyclists, But the way to acceptance is not by getting in the face of those who use ( and pay for) the roads with a shrill " we are green, so we are morally superior" message.
    Dan Burkhart
    Oakville Ont
     
  9. Wheel Doctor

    Wheel Doctor Guest

    Ed, Once you leane the town its very nice riding. Other parts of the county are even nicer. On a
    summer Sunday AM I have an area where for 30 miles you may not encounter a car at all. Where I live
    is quite quiet most of the time. Although the county has more coastline than California because its
    all tidal and non-tidal creeks, coves and bay, you can not ride directly along it in very many
    places. Still all in all its a very senic area rich in colonial, Civil War and Cheseapeake Bay water
    travel and seafood industry lore. The island where I live is in... say 10 years going to be over
    populated with homes built for the Baltimore and DC retiree and second home crowd. Its unavoidable.
    So when it's too much for me I will pull up a go.....possibly to the desert or hills of WV,KY or AK.
    Minnesota is out of the question. Too cold...Burrrrr. I may be up there sometime in the next 90 or
    so days. Wife's mom is not doing well. She is 92.

    Jude

    "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:7d49e514.0402140003.518[email protected]...
    > "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    > > Geez Ed..lighten up. How about a tadpole trike fitted with some skis on the front wheels and a
    > > studded tire on the rear. Snowmobile suit and
    yer
    > > ready to go.
    > >
    > > St. Michaels Maryland has no bike trail...yet but it sure is a tourist trap and I trap
    > > tourists. Al and I were discussing various
    techniques
    > > for riding thru town during the tourist season. I take a full lane and
    do 20
    > > the speed limit is 25. The fun comes in when you pay close attention to
    the
    > > pedestrians in the crosswalks for which you must stop and the
    jaywalkers. Or
    > > worse the gawking tourists in cars slamming on their brakes for one
    reason or
    > > another. I shouldn't complain since this stretch is less than a mile
    then
    > > its non stop smooth wide shoulder for 13 miles and home,
    > >
    > > Jude
    >
    > Yes, Jude, it is all fun and games. I have been there and done it! Normally, I like to take in the
    > tourist scene for a few hours, and then I like to get out of town. The true beauty of cycling is
    > to be found out in the countryside on the trails in solitude and meditation. At night I like to be
    > camped all by myself seemingly a million miles from my fellow man. Some tell me that I am anti-
    > social, but that is not true. I do like my fellow man but only one at a time. When they are massed
    > I want to always be elsewhere.
    >
    > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  10. watsonglenn

    watsonglenn New Member

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    I am very sure, bicycles will never replace motorized vehicles. We humans are way too lazy to be pedaling except for sport and
    recreation. When we have to go someplace, like to work for instance, we will always want to drive.>>


    If you a man is too poor to drive a car to work then he will ride bus, a bike or walk or he will starve. That is what humans do.
     
  11. watsonglenn

    watsonglenn New Member

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    Sorry about that: I meant to say:

    If a man is too poor to drive a car then he will ride bus, a bike or walk, or he will starve. A man does what he has to do.
     
  12. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    Dan:

    There's certainly some advantage to having bike paths, especially in built up metro areas with heavy
    traffic. It's just that if you're going to build them and ignore the serious safety issues at
    intersections you probably shouldn't bother. (This depends on how many intersections there are, of
    course.) And there *is* a tradeoff, because the more cyclists that motorists are used to seeing on
    the roadways the safer cyclists will be. Getting them off the roads sets up more dangerous
    cicumstances should they have to get back *on* the road to get somewhere. (And it's almost a
    certainty that they'll have to ride at least part of the way to their destination on public roads.)
    The point that some of us are making is that "bike advocacy" involves BOTH building good well-
    designed bikeways AND taking an aggressive stance toward motorists who injure cyclists through
    negligence. The latter almost NEVER happens. I can give examples, but it gets tedious.

    --
    --Scott
    "Dan Burkhart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Your statements conflict with that of most experienced cyclists. Could
    > you clarify your cycling expertise, please?
    >
    > Cycling expertise??? What about common sense? It makes no sense to me
    > that the cycling advocates oppose off road pathways. If your
    > objective is to get large numbers of people to commute by bicycle,
    > forcing them to share the roads with much larger and faster vehicles
    > is not the way. I have spent a lot of time cycling ( recreationally )
    > in Calgary Alberta, a city with an excellent network of trails which
    > will take you to any corner of the city where a short on street ride
    > will take you to your place of work or residence. I can tell you
    > that, early in the morning , if you ride west on the Bow river trail,
    > you will be met by litterally swarms of cyclists making their way
    > from the suberbs to the city centre. I wonder how many of those folks
    > would ride to work were it not for those pathways. Even in winter, a
    > surprising number of people are riding. As for the argument that more
    > accidents take place at road crossings, that is clearly an education
    > and awareness issue, and one of adequate signage. I have also cycled
    > in Europe, where contrary to what I read somewhere in this thread,
    > there are some great off road trails. ( Both inter and intra city)
    > Vienna for example has separate bike and pedestrian lanes with multi
    > phase signals to accomodate all. It is true that drivers there are
    > more alert and aware (generally) than they are here, and they
    > certainly are more accomodating to cyclists, But the way to
    > acceptance is not by getting in the face of those who use ( and pay
    > for) the roads with a shrill " we are green, so we are morally
    > superior" message. Dan Burkhart Oakville Ont
    >
    >
    >
    > --
     
  13. watsonglenn

    watsonglenn New Member

    Joined:
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    Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than it is to 'cross' a street. I would love to ride my bike to work but carrying two kids to daycare and school plus fighting the traffic is just too dangerous. Of course bike trails would not help much either unless they were very extensive.
     
  14. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    "Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than it is to 'cross'
    a street."

    Unfortunately that's not true. The variable you're omitting is the awareness of motorists, and once
    they see you they're probably not going to hit you. Whether they see or notice you depends on a
    number of factors, but if you suddenly cross a roadway there's virtually no chance that they will
    have gradually come upon you, so it's a VERY DANGEROUS situation. I don't know the stats, but my
    guess is that there are probably at least as many accidents at these bikepath/roadway intersections
    as anywhere else. If you're going to use bike paths (and I do) be VERY CAREFUL at intersections.
    That'll at least improve your odds.

    The best options are, of course, cutouts or overpasses. But even if these are the rule (and they've
    very expensive) there's still the tradeoff in the sense that if you're off the highway motorists are
    unused to dealing with cyclists. When you get back on you'll either piss them off or you'll surprise
    them somehow (and not in a 'good' way).

    Bike paths have their place. In the DC area we have one of the most extensive bike path systems
    anywhere in the country. You can travel from downtown DC to Annapolis with only about 20 miles
    on public roads. (There's a Washington Area Bicyclist's Association ride that does this every
    year.) There are tons of people that use the DC bikepath system to commute to work inside the
    beltway, because driving your car is a pain in the bumpkiss, and the bike paths are very
    convenient and probably go more places than the metro (subway). But there are still numerous
    places where you'd better have your wits about you, or you're courting disaster (especially by
    the Reagan (National) Airport).

    But it's a GREAT RIDE! And above Alexandria the Mt. Vernon Trail is very scenic, going right along
    the Potomac. We're really very blessed with a good bike trail system.

    --
    --Scott
    "watsonglenn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:2MuXb.17168$%[email protected]...
    > Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than
    > it is to 'cross' a street. I would love to ride my bike to work but
    > carrying two kids to daycare and school plus fighting the traffic is
    > just too dangerous. Of course bike trails would not help much either
    > unless they were very extensive.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
     
  15. watsonglenn

    watsonglenn New Member

    Joined:
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    Unfortunately that's not true. ..... I don't know the stats>>>

    I don't either but I do know my mother told me to look both ways before I cross the street. If I get hit crossing the street it is unlikely to be the car's fault.

    my guess is that there are probably at least as many accidents at these bikepath/roadway intersections
    as anywhere else.

    I would be astonded to find this to be true. but if it is then the fault ies with the bikes.


    If you're going to use bike paths (and I do) be VERY CAREFUL at intersections. That'll at least improve your odds.>>

    Good advise. In my city of Huntsville bike paths are in their infancy but we have two nice if short ones. I can't imagine how they would route one through the city but it sure would be nice. What they have built was controversial because homeowners in the area complained they did not want people walking through their back yard.
     
  16. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Sorry about that: I meant to say:
    >
    > If a man is too poor to drive a car then he will ride bus, a bike or walk, or he will starve. A
    > man does what he has to do.

    My small town here on the high prairie of southern Minnesota is filling up with emigrants from
    Mexico who come here to work in the local meatpacking plant (the locals won't work there because the
    work is too hard and the pay is too small). The very first thing they do once they get settled is to
    buy a brand new automobile. Then, because they do not know how to drive, they lose their driver's
    license and you see them around town on bicycles. But I assure you, that is only a stop gap measure.
    They will want their cars above all else in life.

    And these are all poor people and I think most of them are aliens besides. You are right about a man
    doing what he has to do, and they all think they have to be driving a car. The Chinese and the
    Indians won't be any different. The only thing that will stop it is when we have all choked to death
    on all the fumes we will be emitting from our automobile exhausts.

    I saw an interesting film about the streets and roads of Iraq the other night on PBS. As poor as
    that country is they seem to have an inordinate number of motor vehicles and no gas to put in them -
    and so they are pushing their vehicles around hunting for gas. The houses along the roadside appear
    to be nothing but hovels, but the cars and trucks are about the same as you would see anywhere in
    the world. Gentlemen! I rest my case!

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  17. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Ed, Once you leane the town its very nice riding. Other parts of the county are even nicer. On a
    > summer Sunday AM I have an area where for 30 miles you may not encounter a car at all. Where I
    > live is quite quiet most of the time. Although the county has more coastline than California
    > because its all tidal and non-tidal creeks, coves and bay, you can not ride directly along it in
    > very many places. Still all in all its a very scenic area rich in colonial, Civil War and
    > Chesapeake Bay water travel and seafood industry lore. The island where I live is in... say 10
    > years going to be over populated with homes built for the Baltimore and DC retiree and second home
    > crowd. Its unavoidable. So when it's too much for me I will pull up a go.....possibly to the
    > desert or hills of WV,KY or AK. Minnesota is out of the question. Too cold...Burrrrr. I may be up
    > there sometime in the next 90 or so days. Wife's mom is not doing well. She is 92.

    Jude, I know what you are talking about with respect to the entire East Coast from Portland
    to Norfolk. It is filling up and will one day be entirely urbanized, just one suburb flowing
    into another.

    As you look around the country for more open spaces, there are still plenty of places to go, but one
    thing that kicks in as you get older is to be able to access certain services and conveniences that
    only come with a certain level of human habitation. As you are no doubt discovering with your mother
    in law you need to have certain services available. Minnesota has this infrastructure in place.
    There are parts of the Dakotas for instance that do not have this infrastructure in place anymore if
    they ever did. And so as we get older we are much more restricted in where we can live than if we
    were young and healthy.

    But you are sure right about Minnesota being too darn cold. The place was originally settled for its
    resources, mainly the good prairie soil for farming where I live (the soil is so black it is blue -
    hence the town named Blue Earth in Southern Minnesota). But Hells Bells, if you are just going to
    work on a production line in a factory, you are far better off almost anyplace else than here. I can
    also think of about a zillion places where you would be better off for retirement purposes too, but
    the trouble is we all of us get trapped by one thing or another in the course of living our lives in
    a given locale.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  18. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>... [...]

    > Good advise. In my city of Huntsville bike paths are in their infancy but we have two nice if
    > short ones. I can't imagine how they would route one through the city but it sure would be nice.
    > What they have built was controversial because homeowners in the area complained they did not want
    > people walking through their back yard.

    That is an almost universal problem about people not wanting any bike trails near them. It all stems
    from nothing but rank selfishness. I live in the downtown area of my town and I have got people
    constantly cutting across my front yard and my back yard for use as a shortcut. It does not bother
    me. I figure that is part of the price that you pay for living in society.

    Most people soon discover that a bike path actually enhances their property and does not interfere
    much with their privacy. We should never listen to the argument that a bike path will detract from
    property value and take away anyone's privacy. If you want that much privacy stay in your house and
    maybe lock yourself in a closet. Those who are so enamored of privacy that they do not want to have
    any other people around them should takes themselves to a wilderness where they can be all by
    themselves and see how they like it.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  19. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > "Clearly it is more dangerous to ride on the street 100% of the time than it is to 'cross' a
    > street."
    >
    > Unfortunately that's not true. The variable you're omitting is the awareness of motorists, and
    > once they see you they're probably not going to hit you. Whether they see or notice you depends on
    > a number of factors, but if you suddenly cross a roadway there's virtually no chance that they
    > will have gradually come upon you, so it's a VERY DANGEROUS situation. I don't know the stats, but
    > my guess is that there are probably at least as many accidents at these bikepath/roadway
    > intersections as anywhere else. If you're going to use bike paths (and I do) be VERY CAREFUL at
    > intersections. That'll at least improve your odds.

    Just like an intellectual to make an argument against common sense. Sorry, Freewheeling, but you
    need to rethink this.

    The awareness of motorists is not something you can depend upon. They may be unaware, drunk, or
    otherwise seriously impaired in one way or another. It is far better to be way, way off the road on
    your own pathway. Cars and bicycles don't go together at all despite what some of us would like.
    Like pedestrians with their walks, we cyclists need our own paths.

    The intersection problem is a no brainer. You slow down and you come to a complete stop if you can't
    see what is approaching you at an intersection. Any cyclist who does not do this is a moron.
    Unfortunately, we have more than our fair share of this species also. I only get concerned about
    these matters when young kids are involved who may not know any better or have the necessary
    awareness of traffic.

    Only a blind man should ever have any problem crossing a street or conflicting with a motor vehicle
    at an intersection. Slow down, stop, look, listen - and be safe!

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  20. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:14:25 GMT, "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message <[email protected]_s54>:

    >gas is three times higher over there because of taxes to pay for bloated socialistic programs

    Not quite. Motoring taxation in most European countries either just about meets the costs of private
    motoring to the economy, or falls well short, according to whose estimates you read. Of course that
    gets skewed a bit as we now have to pay the bill for an oil-access war.

    And our "bloated socialistic programs" include a health service where if you get sick, you get
    treated. Nobody checks for your medical card when the ambulance arrives at a crash. Also literacy
    rates are higher than in the US due to good quality state schools.

    I quite like that sort of bloated socialistic system.

    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at the University of Washington.
     
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