Bike deaths in FL ...

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Robert Siegel, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. Geob

    Geob Guest

    > > Years ago, during the Shaw's reign,
    > shah [ shaa ]

    Yes, thank you for the correction.

    > People are not the same the world over because of cultural differences.

    Yes.. my anthro prof taught that everything we learn, everything we touch or use or wear is culture.
    It is everything added to use since we emerged from the womb. It includes our tools, our way of
    life, our spirituality, our beliefs, food, clothes, courtship etc.

    I accept much of what he taught but not all. His favorite saying was "Culture determines!" He
    emphasized that culture determines right and wrong, morality. I don't accept this 100% even though I
    agree with his thrust. I happen to believe that above all cultures there remains an over-riding
    absolute measure of right and wrong, that it isn't subject to the situation. Not all cultures,
    including ours in large part, recognize the existence of this objective morality.

    > We have had cases here in my small town of Ethiopians who have killed themselves or otherwise end
    > up in our courts over domestic disputes because once their women get to this country they (the
    > women) come to the realization that they no longer have to put up with being beaten and in general
    > being consigned to second class status. The men can't take it, go crazy and run afoul of our laws.

    Some liberals complain when we (our government, our churches and missionaries)start messing with
    other cultures. They treasure un-touched cultures. I can understand that. But as Ed indicated above,
    they need to decide if they are going to liberate women, protect children and end racial hatred, or
    if they are going to protect existing cultures! I feel like asking them if they would like to go and
    be a part of one of the repressive cultures of the world.

    Incidentally a giant change has been made in the last 40 years in the way our missionaries
    evangelize an untouched culture. The key now is to export our knowledge of Jesus Christ, not our
    culture. They strive to develop church leadership, language, songs, form of worship, etc from the
    nationals, not from their own experience. I mean the national's develop this stuff. The missionaries
    work themselves out of a job as soon as possible. No, I know this isn't always true. In places in
    India and Phillipines and so forth, there are churches that seem like transplanted European
    churches. Same music, language, clothes, etc. But a closer look in many instances will show that the
    church doesn't attempt to minister to the nationals as a separate culture, but is really there to
    minister to the adherents of the European culture that have become 'westernized' or have otherwise
    severed their dependence on their native culture. If this modern view had prevailed during early
    California history, the Mission age would never had existed. I guess the European diseases would
    still have decimated the Indians though.

    > Different cultures not only cause you to behave differently, but much more importantly they cause
    > you to think differently. This is not any easy chasm to bridge. Many times it is essentially
    > impossible.

    My prof taught that even further, our very language constrains the types of thoughts we think and
    can communicate. It determines the kinds of thoughts that we are ABLE to think.

    I don't fully understand this since I am not able to think those kinds of thoughts.

    > We conservatives know that some cultures are infinitely better than others and that it is the job
    > of one and all to bring the inferior culture up to the standard of the superior.

    Anthropology teaches that culture can be looked at as a set of tools. It allows humans to occupy the
    niche they find themselves in. Every culture is appropriate to the circumstances of that people
    group. Our army purposely learned from the Eskimos of the far north after first efforts to train
    forces to work in the arctic failed miserably. The Eskimo culture was ideal for the environment and
    time the people lived in.

    > culture. If and when cultures clash violently, it will get taken care of by the superior culture
    > destroying the inferior culture even if it means that all the people of the inferior culture will
    > be killed off. However, more often than not, the people of the inferior culture will eventually
    > come around if treated humanely.

    I would point out that one culture may be more proficient in warfare, but does that equate in every
    situation to 'superior'? Cultures may be advanced and capable in some areas and not in others. Our
    industrial civilization appears to many of us to be non-sustainable. It supports a larger and larger
    towering 'mono-culture' of human beings, far larger than the land can currently sustain biologically
    without high-tech. If anything happens to our mechanized distribution system, or a pinch in supply
    hurts our complex, delicate and fragile economic system, then the tower will come tumbling down. In
    historical times the world has lost tremendous populations due to disease or famine. There is NO
    reason for us to feel immune (so to speak) to this threat.

    Many diseases are borne by lack of clean drinking water. I believe in Europe the Plague(s) brought
    down over 1/2 of the population, counting the destruction of human institutions like government,
    law, economics, etc. We have seen countless massive 'adjustments' in animal populations due to
    drought or something similar. The greater the population density, the more likelyhood of a
    devastating crash.

    Cultures develop that which they need to survive. Or they did in the days before the "rate of
    change" in our social fabric became so accelerated.

    Nowadays we are losing cultural variety at a fast rate. So? Well.. my mother can skin a deer, grow a
    food crop, can and preserve food for future use, gather natural foods from the mountains or
    wherever, hunt for meat, build furniture, build a house, raise animals for food, hunt, mend broken
    bodies, beat the phooey out of a willful child: "Go pick me a switch, young man".

    Understand, I am not talking about *her* culture, I am trying to talk about the over-all problem, if
    that is what it is, about the loss of cultures throughout the world. I am NOT saying that we should
    preserve them intact, but it would be nice if we could record all of a culture somehow!

    I can't help but see that my mother's skills are potentially valuable in the future, and when her
    generation is gone much of our access to that knowledge will be too. Oh, I know we can get it from
    books, if a book can really contain all that she and others like her know.

    These skills may not be needed for generations. But the world turns, what is true today may
    not be the world of tomorrow. Today we get on our 'Bent and go buy bread and milk. Will that
    always be true?

    This may not be a good illustration, the Eskimo one is better. But all over the world cultures have
    enabled humans to live where otherwise they couldn't. How long would a European man last in the
    Outback of Australia, on his own, without access to our culture's manufactured solutions to that set
    of survival problems? I mean, hungry and naked, his plane a mass of jumbled metal, could he make his
    way around in that desert as an aborigine did (lets say one of a previous generation, maybe a couple
    hundred years ago)? Hypothetically there is value to such a set of survival tools.

    In the 60's a lot of Earth Mothers and hippies valued relationships with the old folks for what they
    could teach them about subsistance farming/living.

    > It was very wise of GeoB to recognize

    You will notice that about me. ;-)

    > his engineering classroom with the Iranian students was a difference in culture and not a
    > difference in personal morality.

    Well, it may have violated their own personal mores.. how many of us ever do anything we are ashamed
    of? But I catch your meaning.

    > recognize that our way (the Western way) was vastly superior to their way (the Iranian way).

    Perhaps.. in this time and place. Perhaps because our civilization has had umpteen thousand years to
    become more suited to urban life than theirs. Although... it seems to me that their history has
    cities that have been around for thousands of years.. so, I don't know.

    I have read that some researchers consider the white man to be the 'africanized bee' (my term) of
    humanity. That is, the most aggressive and domineering.

    I know that the Conquering of the Western USA was a study in culture-clash. Our ag culture was not
    compatible with the Indian hunter/gatherer culture. Wandering herds of wild Buffalo were not
    compatible with our use of domestic animals for food and milk and fiber. Or for cultivated fields
    either. And our sense property ownership was outraged also.

    Anthropology teaches that innovations such as agriculture [1] always come about as a RESULT of
    population pressure (sorry, Jean M. Auel). The Clan of the Cave Bear, et al shows innovation in the
    classic manner, by (what's the technical term I am looking for here, Freewheel?) an outstanding
    individual who may make profound changes in a culture by spontaneous innovations. We swung away from
    this idea before I went to college, but I think I heard that 'leading' anthropologists were
    reconsidering this hypothesis, that this idea may be coming back into style.

    [1] or the machine gun and atomic bomb?
     


  2. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    [email protected] (GeoB) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > > I've only known a couple of Iranians. They seemed, well, rather "brash."
    >
    > I have also known Iranians that I feel honored to have known. One guy comes to mind, a westernized
    > but traditional [1] Iranian named, phonetically, Saar-ee-are. He is a brilliant mechanical
    > engineer. He lives here in the USA. I think he was heard to have uttered something not entirely
    > supportive of the present government of Iran and now must stay here until they forget.
    >
    > This guy, who had NO experience with digital electronics, accepted a work assignment that others
    > were having a hard time with. It involved modifying a PC at the chip level. Seems it was something
    > about using a PC as a base for some intricate instrumentation. He took a PC home and studied it
    > all weekend and confidentially started the project the next week. Astounding to slow little me,
    > whose degree is in Digital Systems Electronics. I had to slowly grind through this stuff step by
    > agonizing step [2].
    >
    > Last I heard, even though he had been out of college only three or four years, he was heading
    > up multi-million dollar development projects. Maybe billions, they were HUGE, for multi-
    > national firms.

    The kind of guys who can do that sort of thing are geniuses. Society never needs very many of them,
    but we always do need a few or else we would all go under. Remember that line from The Kaine Mutiny
    about how submarines are designed by geniuses to be operated by idiots. I think that fairly
    describes the contemporary scene with respect to most everything.

    > [1] Although not really a religious sort, he never took part in the decadent western practice of
    > dating. When he reached a point in life when he was established and wanted a wife, he told
    > his mother. She came over, networked with others here, and brought him together with one girl
    > after another, dinners and such. I think he may have married finally, butI remember the
    > process went on and on for quite a while.

    I think that is a great idea myself and one we should adopt here in the West. We might have far
    fewer divorces if we did.

    > [2] I have always felt that I missed my calling... I feel I would make an ideal beach-comber
    > living in a driftwood hut.

    Well, I have more or less lived my life as a beach-comber drifter, but here on the windswept high
    prairie of southern Minnesota instead of in the South Pacific. I never did have any sense of
    geography.

    >
    > GeoB
    >
    > "It is when differences that might otherwise be considered ethnocultural are regarded as innate,
    > indelible, and unchangeable that a racist attitude or ideology can be said to exist."
    > - George Fredrickson's history of racism

    Yeah, but that does not mean that there aren't any racial differences either besides the obvious
    surface ones of course. All I can say is that it is a deep study. But it is highly politically
    incorrect to even propose to study the subject, other than to issue bromides about how there are no
    differences. Let's face it, the Nazis gave the study of race a really bad odor.

    And so we will stay steeped in ignorance on the subject until some brave soul comes along and
    shakes us out of our slumbers. But we may all be commingled and become one race before too long the
    way things are going. I think the human race will probably end up looking like lower class
    Brazilians in the end.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  3. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    [email protected] (GeoB) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > > > Years ago, during the Shaw's reign,
    > > shah [ shaa ]
    >
    > Yes, thank you for the correction.
    >
    > > People are not the same the world over because of cultural differences.
    >
    > Yes.. my anthro prof taught that everything we learn, everything we touch or use or wear is
    > culture. It is everything added to use since we emerged from the womb. It includes our tools, our
    > way of life, our spirituality, our beliefs, food, clothes, courtship etc.

    Well, I think I may have met my Waterloo with GeoB. He is as long-winded as I am and further he has
    a good knowledge of anthropology, sociology and most of the other social sciences as far as I can
    tell. Like me, he also has a penchant for wandering off topic. So in order that these messages don't
    take over our lives, I will just respond to particular points as they may interest me. Besides, we
    don't really seem to disagree with one another all that much anyway. If we get to arguing about the
    details of the social sciences we will absolutely bore everyone to death.

    > I accept much of what he taught but not all. His favorite saying was "Culture determines!" He
    > emphasized that culture determines right and wrong, morality. I don't accept this 100% even though
    > I agree with his thrust. I happen to believe that above all cultures there remains an over-riding
    > absolute measure of right and wrong, that it isn't subject to the situation. Not all cultures,
    > including ours in large part, recognize the existence of this objective morality.

    Almost all of social science would disagree with you about there being any overriding objective
    morality. But even so, some cultures are clearly superior to others (at least more complex if
    nothing else) and so I will go along with whatever the superior culture determines to be moral. I do
    not want to go headhunting with the natives of New Guinea.

    > > We have had cases here in my small town of Ethiopians who have killed themselves or otherwise
    > > end up in our courts over domestic disputes because once their women get to this country they
    > > (the women) come to the realization that they no longer have to put up with being beaten and in
    > > general being consigned to second class status. The men can't take it, go crazy and run afoul of
    > > our laws.
    >
    > Some liberals complain when we (our government, our churches and missionaries)start messing with
    > other cultures. They treasure un-touched cultures. I can understand that. But as Ed indicated
    > above, they need to decide if they are going to liberate women, protect children and end racial
    > hatred, or if they are going to protect existing cultures! I feel like asking them if they would
    > like to go and be a part of one of the repressive cultures of the world.
    >
    > Incidentally a giant change has been made in the last 40 years in the way our missionaries
    > evangelize an untouched culture. The key now is to export our knowledge of Jesus Christ, not our
    > culture. They strive to develop church leadership, language, songs, form of worship, etc from the
    > nationals, not from their own experience. I mean the national's develop this stuff. The
    > missionaries work themselves out of a job as soon as possible. No, I know this isn't always true.
    > In places in India and Philippines and so forth, there are churches that seem like transplanted
    > European churches. Same music, language, clothes, etc. But a closer look in many instances will
    > show that the church doesn't attempt to minister to the nationals as a separate culture, but is
    > really there to minister to the adherents of the European culture that have become 'westernized'
    > or have otherwise severed their dependence on their native culture. If this modern view had
    > prevailed during early California history, the Mission age would never had existed. I guess the
    > European diseases would still have decimated the Indians though.

    Interestingly enough, all cultures that are touched even by missionaries undergo change. Even
    anthropologists cannot study a primitive culture without changing it. I do not believe that there
    are any primitive cultures left in the world today that have not undergone change as a result of
    coming into contact with various civilizations. In short, there are no stone age cultures left in
    the world to be studied.

    > > Different cultures not only cause you to behave differently, but much more importantly they
    > > cause you to think differently. This is not any easy chasm to bridge. Many times it is
    > > essentially impossible.
    >
    > My prof taught that even further, our very language constrains the types of thoughts we think and
    > can communicate. It determines the kinds of thoughts that we are ABLE to think.
    >
    > I don't fully understand this since I am not able to think those kinds of thoughts.

    Yes, you had a very smart anthropology professor. Language is critical. It is what makes us human
    above all else. Without language we would be operating on the level of chimpanzees. We would still
    have primitive feelings and emotions, but no thoughts. It is words that make thought possible and
    how we use the words determine how we think and the very thoughts that we think. There is a self
    fulfilling loop process involved and it is the main reason why philosophy has never made much
    progress down through the ages. Only science is able to partially short circuit this process via the
    method of experimental testing. But even so, many societies are not capable even of science because
    of the way their thought is structured due to their language (words).

    I have often thought the French are the way they are because of their confounded language. It
    determines how they think. It is suppose to be a language of clarity for thought, but it must be
    just the opposite since they can never seem to come to a correct conclusion about anything. ;)

    > > We conservatives know that some cultures are infinitely better than others and that it is the
    > > job of one and all to bring the inferior culture up to the standard of the superior.
    >
    > Anthropology teaches that culture can be looked at as a set of tools. It allows humans to occupy
    > the niche they find themselves in. Every culture is appropriate to the circumstances of that
    > people group. Our army purposely learned from the Eskimos of the far north after first efforts to
    > train forces to work in the arctic failed miserably. The Eskimo culture was ideal for the
    > environment and time the people lived in.
    >
    > > culture. If and when cultures clash violently, it will get taken care of by the superior culture
    > > destroying the inferior culture even if it means that all the people of the inferior culture
    > > will be killed off. However, more often than not, the people of the inferior culture will
    > > eventually come around if treated humanely.
    >
    > I would point out that one culture may be more proficient in warfare, but does that equate in
    > every situation to 'superior'? Cultures may be advanced and capable in some areas and not in
    > others. Our industrial civilization appears to many of us to be non-sustainable. It supports a
    > larger and larger towering 'mono-culture' of human beings, far larger than the land can currently
    > sustain biologically without high-tech. If anything happens to our mechanized distribution system,
    > or a pinch in supply hurts our complex, delicate and fragile economic system, then the tower will
    > come tumbling down. In historical times the world has lost tremendous populations due to disease
    > or famine. There is NO reason for us to feel immune (so to speak) to this threat.
    >
    > Many diseases are borne by lack of clean drinking water. I believe in Europe the Plague(s) brought
    > down over 1/2 of the population, counting the destruction of human institutions like government,
    > law, economics, etc. We have seen countless massive 'adjustments' in animal populations due to
    > drought or something similar. The greater the population density, the more likelihood of a
    > devastating crash.
    >
    > Cultures develop that which they need to survive. Or they did in the days before the "rate of
    > change" in our social fabric became so accelerated.

    Everything you say above is correct, but cultures that are superior in one respect are most often
    superior in other respects also. For instance, the development of science in the West was a
    tremendous advancement in human culture. It meant that the West was going to be superior in most
    every other way also. But the very development of science itself meant that the West was already
    superior to all other cultures. It did not happen in China or India or anyplace else. The
    development of science in the West probably had everything to do with the Protestant Reformation and
    the development of the interior man who was now accountable to a personal God for his salvation.
    There were all kinds of cultural developments that led to the advent of science in the West.

    Other cultures like Japan for instance wanted the technology of the West and so they had to take the
    science of the West also, And that meant that their entire culture had to change to accommodate the
    new science and technology. But they resisted this mightily. They wanted to preserve the old Japan
    and its traditional culture. Japan is now pretty much part of the West. The old Japanese culture
    could never have remained even if they had not been defeated in the course of WWII. It is extremely
    difficult for one culture to pick and choose what it wants from another culture without taking it in
    whole. Japan tried and failed.

    > Nowadays we are losing cultural variety at a fast rate. So? Well.. my mother can skin a deer, grow
    > a food crop, can and preserve food for future use, gather natural foods from the mountains or
    > wherever, hunt for meat, build furniture, build a house, raise animals for food, hunt, mend broken
    > bodies, beat the phooey out of a willful child: "Go pick me a switch, young man".
    >
    > Understand, I am not talking about *her* culture, I am trying to talk about the over-all problem,
    > if that is what it is, about the loss of cultures throughout the world. I am NOT saying that we
    > should preserve them intact, but it would be nice if we could record all of a culture somehow!
    >
    > I can't help but see that my mother's skills are potentially valuable in the future, and when her
    > generation is gone much of our access to that knowledge will be too. Oh, I know we can get it from
    > books, if a book can really contain all that she and others like her know.
    >
    > These skills may not be needed for generations. But the world turns, what is true today may not
    > be the world of tomorrow. Today we get on our 'Bent and go buy bread and milk. Will that always
    > be true?
    >
    > This may not be a good illustration, the Eskimo one is better. But all over the world cultures
    > have enabled humans to live where otherwise they couldn't. How long would a European man last in
    > the Outback of Australia, on his own, without access to our culture's manufactured solutions to
    > that set of survival problems? I mean, hungry and naked, his plane a mass of jumbled metal, could
    > he make his way around in that desert as an aborigine did (lets say one of a previous generation,
    > maybe a couple hundred years ago)? Hypothetically there is value to such a set of survival tools.
    >
    > In the 60's a lot of Earth Mothers and hippies valued relationships with the old folks for what
    > they could teach them about subsistence farming/living.

    GeoB, the kind of society we are living in today is a house of cards. It is extremely complex and
    the investment (human and material) required to keep it all going is very great. Many societies are
    failing at this quite badly (South Africa for instance). But I fear we are embarked on a path of no
    return. We either succeed at the way we are going or we will crash and return to a new barbarism.
    Civilization is never assured. It must be fought for and defended with every generation. It is an
    open question whether civilization will in the end succeed. The jury is still out.

    > > It was very wise of GeoB to recognize
    >
    > You will notice that about me. ;-)
    >
    > > his engineering classroom with the Iranian students was a difference in culture and not a
    > > difference in personal morality.
    >
    > Well, it may have violated their own personal mores.. how many of us ever do anything we are
    > ashamed of? But I catch your meaning.

    No, if they were all behaving in exactly the same way, then it was a cultural thing and not a
    morality thing.

    > > recognize that our way (the Western way) was vastly superior to their way (the Iranian way).
    >
    > Perhaps.. in this time and place. Perhaps because our civilization has had umpteen thousand years
    > to become more suited to urban life than theirs. Although... it seems to me that their history has
    > cities that have been around for thousands of years.. so, I don't know.

    The Iranian way springs from their Islamic religion. Most of culture in fact comes out of religion.
    The ancient Persians have nothing in common with the present day Iranians just as the ancient
    inhabitants of Mesopotamia have nothing in common with the present day Iraqis.

    > I have read that some researchers consider the white man to be the 'africanized bee' (my term) of
    > humanity. That is, the most aggressive and domineering.

    No, it is all about culture and not about race. When you read history widely you will despair of
    anything good ever being accomplished in this world. That is why the great Saints of the Church like
    St. Augustine preferred to think about the City of God as opposed to thinking about the City of Man.

    > I know that the Conquering of the Western USA was a study in culture-clash. Our ag culture was not
    > compatible with the Indian hunter/gatherer culture. Wandering herds of wild Buffalo were not
    > compatible with our use of domestic animals for food and milk and fiber. Or for cultivated fields
    > either. And our sense property ownership was outraged also.

    I could never figure out why we Americans were constantly making treaties with the Indians since it
    was nothing but a war of conquest from beginning to end. We must have had a bad conscience about it.
    Much of the destruction of the Indians was not intended but took place due to diseases to which the
    Indians were susceptible not having any immunity. But no matter, the end result was inevitable. I
    assure you that had we been living then we would have had the exact same belief as our forefathers -
    that the only good Indian was a dead Indian. We kid ourselves if we think we would have acted any
    differently.

    > Anthropology teaches that innovations such as agriculture [1] always come about as a RESULT of
    > population pressure (sorry, Jean M. Auel). The Clan of the Cave Bear, et al shows innovation in
    > the classic manner, by (what's the technical term I am looking for here, Freewheel?) an
    > outstanding individual who may make profound changes in a culture by spontaneous innovations. We
    > swung away from this idea before I went to college, but I think I heard that 'leading'
    > anthropologists were reconsidering this hypothesis, that this idea may be coming back into style.
    >
    > [1] or the machine gun and atomic bomb?

    I think in the arts outstanding individuals count, but not in science and technology nor in culture
    generally. It would not have mattered in the least if any of the great scientists had ever lived or
    not. Others would have made the same discoveries and inventions at about the same time. Science
    would be where it is today if Newton and Einstein had never lived. Culture has a natural evolution
    (or not) independent of any individuals. The ultimate source for innovation may be a certain kind of
    religion, i.e., Protestantism.

    It is an old argument in the Humanities also whether great men have any bearing on history or
    whether historical events creates the great man. I tend toward this latter belief myself. In other
    words, even if Napoleon had never lived, Russia was doomed to be invaded by the French led by a
    great warrior as a result of the French Revolution. Tolstoy made a very sophisticated argument for
    this proposition as did some of the other great 19th century Russian writers (Dostoevsky).

    There are a few discoveries or inventions which are seminal in the history of man. Agriculture is
    perhaps the main one of all time. We are still living in an agriculture based society today. It
    meant that man could multiply as never before and that he would in fact dominate the planet. Science
    is another seminal invention. The human population now is such that we can never go back. We are
    doomed to stay on the present track and we couldn't get off of it if we wanted to. In a sense, we
    are doomed by our own success.

    Nature probably has some tricks up its sleeve to polish us off with one of those horsemen of the
    apocalypse. Disease alway appeals to me the most. You can never kill off enough people with wars
    and famine, but disease can do it as we all know from reading our history of the Black Death in
    medieval Europe.

    Well, enough of these pleasantries. No sense getting any more depressed than I already am by this
    confounded winter weather.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  4. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    GeoB:

    "The Clan of the Cave Bear, et al shows innovation in the classic manner, by (what's the technical
    term I am looking for here, Freewheel?) an outstanding individual who may make profound changes in a
    culture by spontaneous innovations. We swung away from this idea before I went to college, but I
    think I heard that 'leading' anthropologists were reconsidering this hypothesis, that this idea may
    be coming back into style."

    Emergence? That's pretty popular. As is Clifford Geertz's "thick description" of culture, that's
    supposedly value free. I despise the reality TV phenomenon, and can see why people in the world
    regard this sort of thing as a virus. "The Apprentice." Ugh. Those people are overly specialized.
    It's a little like having tunnel vision in a defensive situation, while you're busy overkilling some
    threat someone else is sneaking up on you. I think it's the "winner take all" mentality that's just
    a weak cultural adaptation. It's what comes with overspecialization, which precedes the collapse of
    a culture. We're going to have to do something.

    Frank Fukuyama has a new book out about that: *Trust: Human Nature and the Reconstitution of
    Social Order*

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684825252/qid=1077287958/sr=1 -7/ref=sr_1_7/002-4121715-
    1678411?v=glance&s=books

    --
    --Scott
    "GeoB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > > Years ago, during the Shaw's reign,
    > > shah [ shaa ]
    >
    > Yes, thank you for the correction.
    >
    > > People are not the same the world over because of cultural
    > > differences.
    >
    > Yes.. my anthro prof taught that everything we learn, everything we
    > touch or use or wear is culture. It is everything added to use since
    > we emerged from the womb. It includes our tools, our way of life, our
    > spirituality, our beliefs, food, clothes, courtship etc.
    >
    > I accept much of what he taught but not all. His favorite saying was
    > "Culture determines!" He emphasized that culture determines right and
    > wrong, morality. I don't accept this 100% even though I agree with
    > his thrust. I happen to believe that above all cultures there remains
    > an over-riding absolute measure of right and wrong, that it isn't
    > subject to the situation. Not all cultures, including ours in large
    > part, recognize the existence of this objective morality.
    >
    > > We have had cases here in my small town of Ethiopians who
    > > have killed themselves or otherwise end up in our courts over domestic
    > > disputes because once their women get to this country they (the women)
    > > come to the realization that they no longer have to put up with being
    > > beaten and in general being consigned to second class status. The men
    > > can't take it, go crazy and run afoul of our laws.
    >
    > Some liberals complain when we (our government, our churches and
    > missionaries)start messing with other cultures. They treasure
    > un-touched cultures. I can understand that. But as Ed indicated
    > above, they need to decide if they are going to liberate women,
    > protect children and end racial hatred, or if they are going to
    > protect existing cultures! I feel like asking them if they would like
    > to go and be a part of one of the repressive cultures of the world.
    >
    > Incidentally a giant change has been made in the last 40 years in the
    > way our missionaries evangelize an untouched culture. The key now is
    > to export our knowledge of Jesus Christ, not our culture. They strive
    > to develop church leadership, language, songs, form of worship, etc
    > from the nationals, not from their own experience. I mean the
    > national's develop this stuff. The missionaries work themselves out of
    > a job as soon as possible. No, I know this isn't always true. In
    > places in India and Phillipines and so forth, there are churches that
    > seem like transplanted European churches. Same music, language,
    > clothes, etc. But a closer look in many instances will show that the
    > church doesn't attempt to minister to the nationals as a separate
    > culture, but is really there to minister to the adherents of the
    > European culture that have become 'westernized' or have otherwise
    > severed their dependence on their native culture. If this modern view
    > had prevailed during early California history, the Mission age would
    > never had existed. I guess the European diseases would still have
    > decimated the Indians though.
    >
    > > Different cultures not only cause you to behave differently, but much
    > > more importantly they cause you to think differently. This is not any
    > > easy chasm to bridge. Many times it is essentially impossible.
    >
    > My prof taught that even further, our very language constrains the
    > types of thoughts we think and can communicate. It determines the
    > kinds of thoughts that we are ABLE to think.
    >
    > I don't fully understand this since I am not able to think those kinds
    > of thoughts.
    >
    > > We conservatives know that some cultures are infinitely
    > > better than others and that it is the job of one and
    > > all to bring the inferior culture up to the standard of
    > > the superior.
    >
    > Anthropology teaches that culture can be looked at as a set of tools.
    > It allows humans to occupy the niche they find themselves in. Every
    > culture is appropriate to the circumstances of that people group. Our
    > army purposely learned from the Eskimos of the far north after first
    > efforts to train forces to work in the arctic failed miserably. The
    > Eskimo culture was ideal for the environment and time the people lived
    > in.
    >
    > > culture. If and when cultures clash violently, it will get taken care
    > > of by the superior culture destroying the inferior culture even if it
    > > means that all the people of the inferior culture will be killed off.
    > > However, more often than not, the people of the inferior culture will
    > > eventually come around if treated humanely.
    >
    > I would point out that one culture may be more proficient in warfare,
    > but does that equate in every situation to 'superior'? Cultures may
    > be advanced and capable in some areas and not in others. Our
    > industrial civilization appears to many of us to be non-sustainable.
    > It supports a larger and larger towering 'mono-culture' of human
    > beings, far larger than the land can currently sustain biologically
    > without high-tech. If anything happens to our mechanized distribution
    > system, or a pinch in supply hurts our complex, delicate and fragile
    > economic system, then the tower will come tumbling down. In
    > historical times the world has lost tremendous populations due to
    > disease or famine. There is NO reason for us to feel immune (so to
    > speak) to this threat.
    >
    > Many diseases are borne by lack of clean drinking water. I believe in
    > Europe the Plague(s) brought down over 1/2 of the population, counting
    > the destruction of human institutions like government, law, economics,
    > etc. We have seen countless massive 'adjustments' in animal
    > populations due to drought or something similar. The greater the
    > population density, the more likelyhood of a devastating crash.
    >
    > Cultures develop that which they need to survive. Or they did in the
    > days before the "rate of change" in our social fabric became so
    > accelerated.
    >
    > Nowadays we are losing cultural variety at a fast rate. So? Well..
    > my mother can skin a deer, grow a food crop, can and preserve food for
    > future use, gather natural foods from the mountains or wherever, hunt
    > for meat, build furniture, build a house, raise animals for food,
    > hunt, mend broken bodies, beat the phooey out of a willful child: "Go
    > pick me a switch, young man".
    >
    > Understand, I am not talking about *her* culture, I am trying to talk
    > about the over-all problem, if that is what it is, about the loss of
    > cultures throughout the world. I am NOT saying that we should
    > preserve them intact, but it would be nice if we could record all of a
    > culture somehow!
    >
    > I can't help but see that my mother's skills are potentially valuable
    > in the future, and when her generation is gone much of our access to
    > that knowledge will be too. Oh, I know we can get it from books, if a
    > book can really contain all that she and others like her know.
    >
    > These skills may not be needed for generations. But the world turns,
    > what is true today may not be the world of tomorrow. Today we get on
    > our 'Bent and go buy bread and milk. Will that always be true?
    >
    > This may not be a good illustration, the Eskimo one is better. But
    > all over the world cultures have enabled humans to live where
    > otherwise they couldn't. How long would a European man last in the
    > Outback of Australia, on his own, without access to our culture's
    > manufactured solutions to that set of survival problems? I mean,
    > hungry and naked, his plane a mass of jumbled metal, could he make his
    > way around in that desert as an aborigine did (lets say one of a
    > previous generation, maybe a couple hundred years ago)?
    > Hypothetically there is value to such a set of survival tools.
    >
    > In the 60's a lot of Earth Mothers and hippies valued relationships
    > with the old folks for what they could teach them about subsistance
    > farming/living.
    >
    > > It was very wise of GeoB to recognize
    >
    > You will notice that about me. ;-)
    >
    > > his engineering classroom with the Iranian students was a difference
    > > in culture and not a difference in personal morality.
    >
    > Well, it may have violated their own personal mores.. how many of us
    > ever do anything we are ashamed of? But I catch your meaning.
    >
    > > recognize that our way (the Western way) was vastly superior to their
    > > way (the Iranian way).
    >
    > Perhaps.. in this time and place. Perhaps because our civilization
    > has had umpteen thousand years to become more suited to urban life
    > than theirs. Although... it seems to me that their history has cities
    > that have been around for thousands of years.. so, I don't know.
    >
    > I have read that some researchers consider the white man to be the
    > 'africanized bee' (my term) of humanity. That is, the most aggressive
    > and domineering.
    >
    > I know that the Conquering of the Western USA was a study in
    > culture-clash. Our ag culture was not compatible with the Indian
    > hunter/gatherer culture. Wandering herds of wild Buffalo were not
    > compatible with our use of domestic animals for food and milk and
    > fiber. Or for cultivated fields either. And our sense property
    > ownership was outraged also.
    >
    > Anthropology teaches that innovations such as agriculture [1] always
    > come about as a RESULT of population pressure (sorry, Jean M. Auel).
    > The Clan of the Cave Bear, et al shows innovation in the classic
    > manner, by (what's the technical term I am looking for here,
    > Freewheel?) an outstanding individual who may make profound changes in
    > a culture by spontaneous innovations. We swung away from this idea
    > before I went to college, but I think I heard that 'leading'
    > anthropologists were reconsidering this hypothesis, that this idea may
    > be coming back into style.
    >
    > [1] or the machine gun and atomic bomb?
     
  5. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    Jude:

    I'll send an email if things look promising weather-wise. But I'm really badly out of shape for
    cycling. All I've done is a little rowing and a little running, and not really much of that.
    Haven't really been on the bike since the hurrican rolled through (other than one or two trips to
    the WHIRL ride).

    --
    --Scott
    "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:D[email protected]...
    > Scott,
    > I know the ride. Perhaps you will ride with us this year. We often
    > start at Southern HS at Harwood and go down to that former biker paradise
    of
    > North Beach....which by the way is directly across the bay from Tilghman
    > Island I can see the lights from here in the loft. There are some
    > interesting hills in this ride. Short but quite steep. We were planning to
    > head that way last Sunday but it never happened.
    >
    > Jude
    >
    >
    > "Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > My favorite ride is the "Happy Harbor" ride that starts from Harwood
    > School.
    > > "Happy Harbor" is a biker bar/restaurant in Deale, MD. And by "biker" I
    > > don't mean the pedal variety. Man, some of those biker babes are
    > *awsome*.
    > > I once met John Anderson (the former independent candidate for
    President)
    > at
    > > the Happy Harbor. I don't think he was on a Harley though. He had his
    > wife
    > > and mother-in-law with him.
    > >
    > > --
    > > --Scott
    > > "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:p[email protected]...
    > > > Ed,
    > > > The lower eastern shore of Maryland still has plenty of rural roads
    > and
    > > > actually so does much of the area south of DC and in Anne Arundal
    County
    > > > (Annapolis) as well a Calvert County. Aslong as you stick to the
    > secondary
    > > > roads with some excursions to the primarys its pretty safe.
    > > > I'm always thinking of more desolate areas to move to but it
    never
    > > > happens. Possibly in the not so distant future I will consider the
    > > > Southwest. Each year we spend time in Las Vegas to attend the bike
    show
    > > and
    > > > then visit friends in S. Cal.. The wife's arthritic problems diminish
    > > > remarkably in a short time and she feels so much better.
    > > > The Penninger is a really nice delta trike. I like to ride it
    too.
    > > The
    > > > down side is the brakes. I have replaced the original calipers with
    > > Ultegra
    > > > and KoolStop pads. Much improved. I also installed a front brake with
    a
    > > > locking lever. It more of a parking brake than anything else. It will
    > be
    > > > modified more to accomidate the wife better. I'm going to a
    > distribuitors
    > > > open house Sunday and I am getting two cranksets one 160mm and one
    > 155mm.
    > > > Wife has one leg shorter by 5mm. When she rides with the current
    > crankset,
    > > > proper leg extinsion makes her left foot hyperextend and creates a
    sore
    > > > achillies tendon. So this rig will hopefully remedy this. For other
    > > reasons
    > > > she has always used KneeSavers on her former steeds.
    > > > She is limited to low impact workouts. She spends most of her
    gym
    > > > time on the low impact machines and nautilus. She is hoping to do a
    > metric
    > > > in the fall. We shall see.
    > > > Have you ever considered attending the HostelShoppe Rally in
    > > Stevens
    > > > Point, WI? Its nice weekend and not all that far from you. I have been
    > > there
    > > > for the last two. Will likely go this year.
    > > >
    > > > Jude
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > >
    > > > > > ED,
    > > > > > What you bring up is very much in my mind. My wife of 26 years
    > has
    > > > had
    > > > > > many many medical problems. Those that have followed this group
    and
    > my
    > > > posts
    > > > > > are aware of it. So being in an area of available good medical
    care
    > is
    > > > very
    > > > > > important. Some of her more exotic stuff was performed at John
    > Hopkins
    > > > with
    > > > > > great success. However, She is again working out every day and
    > > looking
    > > > > > forward to riding her Penninger when the weather improves. I'm
    even
    > > > > > considering a tandem trike, however since much of her problem
    > involves
    > > > the
    > > > > > spine, getting in and out of a tadpole trike is tough. The
    Penninger
    > > is
    > > > a bit
    > > > > > higher and with a parking brake I devised as well as a T-bar for
    her
    > > to
    > > > pull
    > > > > > herself up with it works well and she can get in and out without
    > help.
    > > > > > As for the topic of this thread. The east coast has now just
    > > > started
    > > > > > to realize the value of the trail system. However, I still want
    the
    > > > option
    > > > > > to ride on the road.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Jude
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Jude, if your wife has complicated medical problems and she will
    need
    > > > > to be monitored you had best forget about living in an isolated area
    > > > > of the country. You will need at least to be within a few hours of a
    > > > > regional medical center. I have a friend whose wife is similarly
    > > > > ailing and she lives within one hour of a regional medical center
    and
    > > > > it is just barely adequate for her needs.
    > > > >
    > > > > When I was young I use to imagine myself living in all sorts of
    exotic
    > > > > places. Now I know that is impossible. I have to be within
    reasonable
    > > > > reach of doctors, pharmacies and hospitals. Sooner or later we all
    end
    > > > > up in this situation. The only way to look at it is that we would be
    > > > > dead a whole lot sooner if it weren't for the miracles of modern
    > > > > medicine. I only have the normal health problems that go with
    getting
    > > > > old, but I live within one block of the Emergency Room. I figure I
    can
    > > > > crawl over there on my hands and knees if worse comes to worse. And
    so
    > > > > I have given up the idea of running off to Alaska or the Yukon. I am
    > > > > doomed to living here in Minnesota.
    > > > >
    > > > > I have cycled many a road that in retrospect was nothing but a death
    > > > > trap. I will go many miles out of my way in order to avoid such
    roads.
    > > > > Yet I have seen other cyclists travel those very same roads that I
    > > > > dread with nary a qualm. Many cyclists are fearless if truth be
    told.
    > > > > Fortunately, Minnesota and Iowa and much of the rural Upper Midwest
    > > > > have literally thousands of miles of county blacktops that are safe
    > > > > for cycling. That does not seem to be the case in many other areas
    of
    > > > > the country. Either the roads have terrible sight lines and/or the
    > > > > traffic is just too heavy for safe cycling. I cycle the roads here
    in
    > > > > the Upper Midwest all the time, but I will admit when I am visiting
    my
    > > > > sister in Fairfax, Virginia I look for bike trails always in
    > > > > preference to any roads.
    > > > >
    > > > > By the way, I have the precursor to your Penninger trike. It was
    > > > > called the Coos Bay Flyer. It is one of the best trikes I have ever
    > > > > had. The only downside to it is that it is a bit on the heavy side,
    > > > > but I gave up on speed 10 years ago. It tracks like it is on rails
    and
    > > > > you can play with the seat to get it more comfy than your easy chair
    > > > > at home in front of the TV. I got mine as an unpainted frameset and
    it
    > > > > took me a year to figure out how to put it together. In the meantime
    I
    > > > > had the most expensive coat rack known to mankind. I use it now
    > > > > exclusively as my winter trike.
    > > > >
    > > > > Best Regards,
    > > > >
    > > > > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
     
  6. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    "GeoB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Aside from the fact that this punishes the third of our society too young, old, handicapped or
    > > poor to drive, it makes driving WORSE, as the streets become clogged with those that otherwise
    > > wouldn't be driving. And then the oil runs out - brilliant.
    >
    > Bravo, Robert! Well said! We can't hear the truth too much.
    >
    > One day we will wake up and find that the oil is all gone. That which could have made medicines,
    > etc for thousands of years.. we just burned it up. The fat-cats will say, "So long suckers... we
    > are taking the money and running... you have no alternate transportation system, no energy system,
    > no manufacturing system geared to today's realities! And NO time left to develop one... no capital
    > left to build one..."
    >
    > GeoB

    It wouldn't happen that way, the oil won't "just run out", if anything I'll be harder to find and
    like anything else the world will adjust accordingly like they did with the introduction cars in the
    first place. The fact is no matter what form of energy is out there oil is still the cheapest way to
    go and until companies can make money on alternatives its the way we will continue to go simply
    because we can.

    And I've been hearing the pundits saying the oil is running out for decades now yet it hasn't
    happened yet and I doubt it will. We have only scratched the surface in oil exploration
     
  7. Wheel Doctor

    Wheel Doctor Guest

    Scott, Not to worry I'm a piece of crap. Rode home from the shop today on the CommuteE AT. Still I
    was a bit surprised....I actually averaged a whopping 15mph for the 15 miles. I'll e-mail you if we
    intend to come over your way. Its usually a Sunday AM. This time of the year we start out with 50 or
    so miles at a moderate pace.

    Jude

    "Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    berlin.de...
    > Jude:
    >
    > I'll send an email if things look promising weather-wise. But I'm really badly out of shape for
    > cycling. All I've done is a little rowing and a little running, and not really much of that.
    > Haven't really been on the bike since the hurrican rolled through (other than one or two trips to
    > the WHIRL ride).
    >
    > --
    > --Scott "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]...
    > > Scott, I know the ride. Perhaps you will ride with us this year. We
    often
    > > start at Southern HS at Harwood and go down to that former biker
    paradise
    > of
    > > North Beach....which by the way is directly across the bay from Tilghman Island I can see the
    > > lights from here in the loft. There are some interesting hills in this ride. Short but quite
    > > steep. We were planning
    to
    > > head that way last Sunday but it never happened.
    > >
    > > Jude
    > >
    > >
    > > "Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > > berlin.de...
    > > > My favorite ride is the "Happy Harbor" ride that starts from Harwood
    > > School.
    > > > "Happy Harbor" is a biker bar/restaurant in Deale, MD. And by "biker"
    I
    > > > don't mean the pedal variety. Man, some of those biker babes are
    > > *awsome*.
    > > > I once met John Anderson (the former independent candidate for
    > President)
    > > at
    > > > the Happy Harbor. I don't think he was on a Harley though. He had
    his
    > > wife
    > > > and mother-in-law with him.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > --Scott "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:p[email protected]...
    > > > > Ed, The lower eastern shore of Maryland still has plenty of rural
    roads
    > > and
    > > > > actually so does much of the area south of DC and in Anne Arundal
    > County
    > > > > (Annapolis) as well a Calvert County. Aslong as you stick to the
    > > secondary
    > > > > roads with some excursions to the primarys its pretty safe. I'm always thinking of more
    > > > > desolate areas to move to but it
    > never
    > > > > happens. Possibly in the not so distant future I will consider the Southwest. Each year we
    > > > > spend time in Las Vegas to attend the bike
    > show
    > > > and
    > > > > then visit friends in S. Cal.. The wife's arthritic problems
    diminish
    > > > > remarkably in a short time and she feels so much better. The Penninger is a really nice
    > > > > delta trike. I like to ride it
    > too.
    > > > The
    > > > > down side is the brakes. I have replaced the original calipers with
    > > > Ultegra
    > > > > and KoolStop pads. Much improved. I also installed a front brake
    with
    > a
    > > > > locking lever. It more of a parking brake than anything else. It
    will
    > > be
    > > > > modified more to accomidate the wife better. I'm going to a
    > > distribuitors
    > > > > open house Sunday and I am getting two cranksets one 160mm and one
    > > 155mm.
    > > > > Wife has one leg shorter by 5mm. When she rides with the current
    > > crankset,
    > > > > proper leg extinsion makes her left foot hyperextend and creates a
    > sore
    > > > > achillies tendon. So this rig will hopefully remedy this. For other
    > > > reasons
    > > > > she has always used KneeSavers on her former steeds. She is limited to low impact workouts.
    > > > > She spends most of her
    > gym
    > > > > time on the low impact machines and nautilus. She is hoping to do a
    > > metric
    > > > > in the fall. We shall see. Have you ever considered attending the HostelShoppe Rally in
    > > > Stevens
    > > > > Point, WI? Its nice weekend and not all that far from you. I have
    been
    > > > there
    > > > > for the last two. Will likely go this year.
    > > > >
    > > > > Jude
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > > "Wheel Doctor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > ED, What you bring up is very much in my mind. My wife of 26
    years
    > > has
    > > > > had
    > > > > > > many many medical problems. Those that have followed this group
    > and
    > > my
    > > > > posts
    > > > > > > are aware of it. So being in an area of available good medical
    > care
    > > is
    > > > > very
    > > > > > > important. Some of her more exotic stuff was performed at John
    > > Hopkins
    > > > > with
    > > > > > > great success. However, She is again working out every day and
    > > > looking
    > > > > > > forward to riding her Penninger when the weather improves. I'm
    > even
    > > > > > > considering a tandem trike, however since much of her problem
    > > involves
    > > > > the
    > > > > > > spine, getting in and out of a tadpole trike is tough. The
    > Penninger
    > > > is
    > > > > a bit
    > > > > > > higher and with a parking brake I devised as well as a T-bar for
    > her
    > > > to
    > > > > pull
    > > > > > > herself up with it works well and she can get in and out without
    > > help.
    > > > > > > As for the topic of this thread. The east coast has now
    just
    > > > > started
    > > > > > > to realize the value of the trail system. However, I still want
    > the
    > > > > option
    > > > > > > to ride on the road.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Jude
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Jude, if your wife has complicated medical problems and she will
    > need
    > > > > > to be monitored you had best forget about living in an isolated
    area
    > > > > > of the country. You will need at least to be within a few hours of
    a
    > > > > > regional medical center. I have a friend whose wife is similarly ailing and she lives
    > > > > > within one hour of a regional medical center
    > and
    > > > > > it is just barely adequate for her needs.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > When I was young I use to imagine myself living in all sorts of
    > exotic
    > > > > > places. Now I know that is impossible. I have to be within
    > reasonable
    > > > > > reach of doctors, pharmacies and hospitals. Sooner or later we all
    > end
    > > > > > up in this situation. The only way to look at it is that we would
    be
    > > > > > dead a whole lot sooner if it weren't for the miracles of modern medicine. I only have the
    > > > > > normal health problems that go with
    > getting
    > > > > > old, but I live within one block of the Emergency Room. I figure I
    > can
    > > > > > crawl over there on my hands and knees if worse comes to worse.
    And
    > so
    > > > > > I have given up the idea of running off to Alaska or the Yukon. I
    am
    > > > > > doomed to living here in Minnesota.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I have cycled many a road that in retrospect was nothing but a
    death
    > > > > > trap. I will go many miles out of my way in order to avoid such
    > roads.
    > > > > > Yet I have seen other cyclists travel those very same roads that I dread with nary a
    > > > > > qualm. Many cyclists are fearless if truth be
    > told.
    > > > > > Fortunately, Minnesota and Iowa and much of the rural Upper
    Midwest
    > > > > > have literally thousands of miles of county blacktops that are
    safe
    > > > > > for cycling. That does not seem to be the case in many other areas
    > of
    > > > > > the country. Either the roads have terrible sight lines and/or the traffic is just too
    > > > > > heavy for safe cycling. I cycle the roads here
    > in
    > > > > > the Upper Midwest all the time, but I will admit when I am
    visiting
    > my
    > > > > > sister in Fairfax, Virginia I look for bike trails always in preference to any roads.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > By the way, I have the precursor to your Penninger trike. It was called the Coos Bay
    > > > > > Flyer. It is one of the best trikes I have
    ever
    > > > > > had. The only downside to it is that it is a bit on the heavy
    side,
    > > > > > but I gave up on speed 10 years ago. It tracks like it is on rails
    > and
    > > > > > you can play with the seat to get it more comfy than your easy
    chair
    > > > > > at home in front of the TV. I got mine as an unpainted frameset
    and
    > it
    > > > > > took me a year to figure out how to put it together. In the
    meantime
    > I
    > > > > > had the most expensive coat rack known to mankind. I use it now exclusively as my winter
    > > > > > trike.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Best Regards,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
     
  8. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]_s01>... [...]
    > And I've been hearing the pundits saying the oil is running out for decades now yet it hasn't
    > happened yet and I doubt it will. We have only scratched the surface in oil exploration.

    I don't think that can possibly be true Mark. Since nature is no longer making any more oil on a
    time scale that matters to us humans and since we are already now getting our oil from some quite
    inhospitable environments (the polar arctic and the continental shelf) it seems to me that we
    have far more than "scratched the surface". As oil becomes a scarcity it will be priced
    accordingly and it will find other uses than the present uses for it. It might make sense to
    began to conserve oil before we have arrived at the last extremity as it is a useful product for
    many things other than moving vehicles around. The world badly needs an alternative source of
    energy - and the sooner the better.

    As I ponder my heating bills for this winter I am struck by how expensive natural gas is getting.
    This was suppose to be in plentiful supply and therefore remain cheap. It is not cheap, therefore it
    must not be in plentiful supply anymore. And so it goes with all forms of energy. We need a
    technological fix for the problem. Where is the science on this, other than nuclear? We can't go
    back to burning wood as there is no longer enough wood in the world for most of the world's
    population. The forests are mostly gone. If we went back to coal we would choke ourselves to death
    on the pollution it causes. Victorian London was notorious for its killer smogs which was mostly the
    result of burning coal. I am afraid there is no going back.

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
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