S
[email protected] wrote:
> There will always be "recumbents" in the bicycle industry and
> similarly, rear engined cars in the auto industry. They do not make
> up the mainstream or any part of it. There is no excuse for air
> cooling in cars without some special purpose in mind.
Simplicity? I don't even like air cooling in motorcycles, and I'm
inclined to agree with you, but I'm not sure that it was a flaw even
though it does make it more difficult to control head temperature.
OTOH, you never got stranded because of a problem in the cooling
system. The VW and 2CV were both air cooled, so it must have met some
purpose for utterly basic transportation that was not completely lost
even into the '70s.
Porsche got 1100hp out of the 917/30 and won a lot races with it so air
cooling doesn't seem to have been too great a drawback. Is that a
special purpose, indicating that air cooled flat engines are
particularly well suited to racing and high output?
> That's what PR will have you believe. Porsche never designed any part
> of the VW. In fact you can't find a single drawing, that he
> made. That work was done by engineers after he brought the car in from
> Czechoslovakia where he had seen it and sold the concept to the German
> government. The main appeal was that everything about it was
> different and that Porsche was a good salesman of the idea. The same
> was true for the American market.
I guess I thought the main appeal was the idea was that the car could
be made and maintained cheaply. I don't know whether Porsche designed
the car or not. I have read books that say he did. I guess you have
proof that it is a lie. The lack of drawings would not seem to be that,
especially given the intervention of a war between the car's design and
its production. Also, I would never expect that the designer of a car
would personally design every component of it.
> That was one of their great PR claims, that one could remove the
> engine in less than 15 minutes. To that I ask, how often did you need
> to remove the engine from your... Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, Nash...
Well, in the case I'm talking about the car was old and needed a new
clutch. With most of those cars the labor cost to remove the engine
would have been greater than the value of the car. But to answer your
question about those other cars: every time you needed to replace the
clutch.
> In
> contrast, VW engines were out on the repair bench all the time. Let's
> not get into the details of transmissions, torsion bar suspension and
> all the other odd features.
I didn't.
> There will always be "recumbents" in the bicycle industry and
> similarly, rear engined cars in the auto industry. They do not make
> up the mainstream or any part of it. There is no excuse for air
> cooling in cars without some special purpose in mind.
Simplicity? I don't even like air cooling in motorcycles, and I'm
inclined to agree with you, but I'm not sure that it was a flaw even
though it does make it more difficult to control head temperature.
OTOH, you never got stranded because of a problem in the cooling
system. The VW and 2CV were both air cooled, so it must have met some
purpose for utterly basic transportation that was not completely lost
even into the '70s.
Porsche got 1100hp out of the 917/30 and won a lot races with it so air
cooling doesn't seem to have been too great a drawback. Is that a
special purpose, indicating that air cooled flat engines are
particularly well suited to racing and high output?
> That's what PR will have you believe. Porsche never designed any part
> of the VW. In fact you can't find a single drawing, that he
> made. That work was done by engineers after he brought the car in from
> Czechoslovakia where he had seen it and sold the concept to the German
> government. The main appeal was that everything about it was
> different and that Porsche was a good salesman of the idea. The same
> was true for the American market.
I guess I thought the main appeal was the idea was that the car could
be made and maintained cheaply. I don't know whether Porsche designed
the car or not. I have read books that say he did. I guess you have
proof that it is a lie. The lack of drawings would not seem to be that,
especially given the intervention of a war between the car's design and
its production. Also, I would never expect that the designer of a car
would personally design every component of it.
> That was one of their great PR claims, that one could remove the
> engine in less than 15 minutes. To that I ask, how often did you need
> to remove the engine from your... Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, Nash...
Well, in the case I'm talking about the car was old and needed a new
clutch. With most of those cars the labor cost to remove the engine
would have been greater than the value of the car. But to answer your
question about those other cars: every time you needed to replace the
clutch.
> In
> contrast, VW engines were out on the repair bench all the time. Let's
> not get into the details of transmissions, torsion bar suspension and
> all the other odd features.
I didn't.