Bike helmet crushed, but head fine



"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

>
> "A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate
> student's head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for a
> concussion, he wasn't hurt."
>
> What more has to be said about that article?


Errr, how about this; the hoop compressive strength of a skull is orders
of magnitude stronger than a helmet in this loading scenario. Even
pro-helmet advocates will recognize that. You're slipping Tom

Phil H
 
"Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

>>
>> "A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate student's
>> head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for a concussion, he
>> wasn't hurt."
>>
>> What more has to be said about that article?

>
> Errr, how about this; the hoop compressive strength of a skull is orders
> of magnitude stronger than a helmet in this loading scenario. Even
> pro-helmet advocates will recognize that. You're slipping Tom


Did you bother to read the article Phil?

Using conservative estimations: such a truck weighs over two tons. Tires for
such a vehicle are some 8 linches wide and have about 8 sq inches of contact
area. For dual rear that adds up to about 80 psi or so and running over
someone's head would put about 600 lbs (estimated weight on a wheel) or more
on that head.

Experimental evidence has shown that a force of 880 to 1500lbs must he
applied to the skull for less than 0.001 of a second to cause a fracture.

If the vehicle was turning the corner at 20 mph (probably high) that would
put a force of some 600+ lbs on his skull for some 3 milliseconds.

Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.
 
Tom Kunich wrote:

> Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.
>
>


Right -- his helmet was run over, not his head. Isn't this obvious?

Dan
 
Dan Connelly wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.
>>
>>

>
> Right -- his helmet was run over, not his head. Isn't this obvious?


The helmet was not on his head, it was on the yes-man sock puppet he had
with him. He is a good Republican and never goes anywhere without a sock
puppet to agree with him. Kunich understood this immediately.
 
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934
>>>
>>> "A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate
>>> student's head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for a
>>> concussion, he wasn't hurt."
>>>
>>> What more has to be said about that article?

>>
>> Errr, how about this; the hoop compressive strength of a skull is
>> orders of magnitude stronger than a helmet in this loading scenario.
>> Even pro-helmet advocates will recognize that. You're slipping Tom

>
> Did you bother to read the article Phil?


Of course.

>
> Using conservative estimations: such a truck weighs over two tons.
> Tires for such a vehicle are some 8 linches wide and have about 8 sq
> inches of contact area. For dual rear that adds up to about 80 psi or
> so and running over someone's head would put about 600 lbs (estimated
> weight on a wheel) or more on that head.
>
> Experimental evidence has shown that a force of 880 to 1500lbs must he
> applied to the skull for less than 0.001 of a second to cause a
> fracture.
>
> If the vehicle was turning the corner at 20 mph (probably high) that
> would put a force of some 600+ lbs on his skull for some 3
> milliseconds.


Thats about 60gs for 3 milliseconds. 300gs comes out to about a .0036
sec time interval for a Head Impact Criteria of 1000 which is a fairly
commonly used standard limit in the aircraft industry. See FAR 25.562 if
you're interested.
>
> Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.


You know as well as I do that the range of skull strengths is about 100%
(150 to 300 gs). You're not going to disprove it with numbers, now if
you could track down a web-cam.

BTW, what part did the helmet play in spreading the load over his
noggin?Yeh, that question would be good for at least another 112 posts
if we hadn't done this already.

Phil H
 
On May 14, 7:40 pm, "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...

>
> >> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>news:[email protected]...
> >>>>http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

>
> >>> "A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate
> >>> student's head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for a
> >>> concussion, he wasn't hurt."

>
> >>> What more has to be said about that article?

>
> >> Errr, how about this; the hoop compressive strength of a skull is
> >> orders of magnitude stronger than a helmet in this loading scenario.
> >> Even pro-helmet advocates will recognize that. You're slipping Tom

>
> > Did you bother to read the article Phil?

>
> Of course.
>
>
>
> > Using conservative estimations: such a truck weighs over two tons.
> > Tires for such a vehicle are some 8 linches wide and have about 8 sq
> > inches of contact area. For dual rear that adds up to about 80 psi or
> > so and running over someone's head would put about 600 lbs (estimated
> > weight on a wheel) or more on that head.

>
> > Experimental evidence has shown that a force of 880 to 1500lbs must he
> > applied to the skull for less than 0.001 of a second to cause a
> > fracture.

>
> > If the vehicle was turning the corner at 20 mph (probably high) that
> > would put a force of some 600+ lbs on his skull for some 3
> > milliseconds.

>
> Thats about 60gs for 3 milliseconds. 300gs comes out to about a .0036
> sec time interval for a Head Impact Criteria of 1000 which is a fairly
> commonly used standard limit in the aircraft industry. See FAR 25.562 if
> you're interested.
>
>
>
> > Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.

>
> You know as well as I do that the range of skull strengths is about 100%
> (150 to 300 gs). You're not going to disprove it with numbers, now if
> you could track down a web-cam.
>
> BTW, what part did the helmet play in spreading the load over his
> noggin?Yeh, that question would be good for at least another 112 posts
> if we hadn't done this already.
>
> Phil H


Wouldn't there be abrasions somewhere if that helmet was put in that
condition while on his head? I didn't read about anything except a
"concussion".
 
"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.

>
> Right -- his helmet was run over, not his head. Isn't this obvious?


Of course it's obvious Dan. Like all of us his chin strap has enough play in
it that when he pulled in his neck the helmet was caught under the wheel of
the truck. No one can have a truck run over their head and live to tell us
about it unless there are some extraordinary circumstances.
 
"Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934
>>>>
>>>> "A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate
>>>> student's head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for a
>>>> concussion, he wasn't hurt."
>>>>
>>>> What more has to be said about that article?
>>>
>>> Errr, how about this; the hoop compressive strength of a skull is orders
>>> of magnitude stronger than a helmet in this loading scenario. Even
>>> pro-helmet advocates will recognize that. You're slipping Tom

>>
>> Did you bother to read the article Phil?

>
> Of course.
>
>>
>> Using conservative estimations: such a truck weighs over two tons. Tires
>> for such a vehicle are some 8 linches wide and have about 8 sq inches of
>> contact area. For dual rear that adds up to about 80 psi or so and
>> running over someone's head would put about 600 lbs (estimated weight on
>> a wheel) or more on that head.
>>
>> Experimental evidence has shown that a force of 880 to 1500lbs must he
>> applied to the skull for less than 0.001 of a second to cause a fracture.
>>
>> If the vehicle was turning the corner at 20 mph (probably high) that
>> would put a force of some 600+ lbs on his skull for some 3 milliseconds.

>
> Thats about 60gs for 3 milliseconds. 300gs comes out to about a .0036 sec
> time interval for a Head Impact Criteria of 1000 which is a fairly
> commonly used standard limit in the aircraft industry. See FAR 25.562 if
> you're interested.
>>
>> Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.

>
> You know as well as I do that the range of skull strengths is about 100%
> (150 to 300 gs). You're not going to disprove it with numbers, now if you
> could track down a web-cam.
>
> BTW, what part did the helmet play in spreading the load over his
> noggin?Yeh, that question would be good for at least another 112 posts if
> we hadn't done this already.


Phil, you don't understand the difference between gees and actual weight do
you?

The step UP onto something like a head would generate several hundreds of
gees. Add the weight of the vehicle and there's absolutely NO WAY that could
happen.
 
"_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 14 May 2007 13:25:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

>
> Much more likely that the helmet would break when his head hit the paving.
> Only a helmet zealot would claim should his head _really_ have been under
> the wheel that the helmet would have done any good.


The guy fell into a truck, struck his head on the ground and had a high
speed vehicle pass within fractions of an inch from him. He can be excused
if he doesn't know what happened.

It's the dumbass reporter that I think ought to be made a laughing stock.
 
On May 15, 8:28 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On 14 May 2007 13:25:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
> >>http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

>
> > Much more likely that the helmet would break when his head hit the paving.
> > Only a helmet zealot would claim should his head _really_ have been under
> > the wheel that the helmet would have done any good.

>
> The guy fell into a truck, struck his head on the ground and had a high
> speed vehicle pass within fractions of an inch from him. He can be excused
> if he doesn't know what happened.
>
> It's the dumbass reporter that I think ought to be made a laughing stock.


It's an insult to even use the salute dumbass with a reporter,
especially today, to dumbasses averywhere. Seems like the vast
majority today are either complete idiots and writing about people
like Paris Hilton while doing "news" too, or sleazoid propaganda
purveyors looking to sell an ideology. Geraldos are a whole lot more
common than Cronkites, Cappas or Sean Flynns.
Basic physics and mathematics shouldn't be allowed to stand in the
way of spinning the story.
Gotta toss out a huge pat on the back to Jeff Jones though. He's what
a journalist, or editor doing news should be.
Bill C
 
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On May 15, 8:28 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > On 14 May 2007 13:25:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>>
>> >>http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

>>
>> > Much more likely that the helmet would break when his head hit the
>> > paving.
>> > Only a helmet zealot would claim should his head _really_ have been
>> > under
>> > the wheel that the helmet would have done any good.

>>
>> The guy fell into a truck, struck his head on the ground and had a high
>> speed vehicle pass within fractions of an inch from him. He can be
>> excused
>> if he doesn't know what happened.
>>
>> It's the dumbass reporter that I think ought to be made a laughing stock.

>
> It's an insult to even use the salute dumbass with a reporter,
> especially today, to dumbasses averywhere. Seems like the vast
> majority today are either complete idiots and writing about people
> like Paris Hilton while doing "news" too, or sleazoid propaganda
> purveyors looking to sell an ideology. Geraldos are a whole lot more
> common than Cronkites, Cappas or Sean Flynns.
> Basic physics and mathematics shouldn't be allowed to stand in the
> way of spinning the story.
> Gotta toss out a huge pat on the back to Jeff Jones though. He's what
> a journalist, or editor doing news should be.


The problem is that these "reporters" actually believe that they're heros
and that they ought to give you their important and valuable opinions
instead of the actual news.
 
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
>>
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934
>>>>>
>>>>> "A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate
>>>>> student's head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for
>>>>> a concussion, he wasn't hurt."
>>>>>
>>>>> What more has to be said about that article?
>>>>
>>>> Errr, how about this; the hoop compressive strength of a skull is
>>>> orders of magnitude stronger than a helmet in this loading
>>>> scenario. Even pro-helmet advocates will recognize that. You're
>>>> slipping Tom
>>>
>>> Did you bother to read the article Phil?

>>
>> Of course.
>>
>>>
>>> Using conservative estimations: such a truck weighs over two tons.
>>> Tires for such a vehicle are some 8 linches wide and have about 8 sq
>>> inches of contact area. For dual rear that adds up to about 80 psi
>>> or so and running over someone's head would put about 600 lbs
>>> (estimated weight on a wheel) or more on that head.
>>>
>>> Experimental evidence has shown that a force of 880 to 1500lbs must
>>> he applied to the skull for less than 0.001 of a second to cause a
>>> fracture.
>>>
>>> If the vehicle was turning the corner at 20 mph (probably high) that
>>> would put a force of some 600+ lbs on his skull for some 3
>>> milliseconds.

>>
>> Thats about 60gs for 3 milliseconds. 300gs comes out to about a .0036
>> sec time interval for a Head Impact Criteria of 1000 which is a
>> fairly commonly used standard limit in the aircraft industry. See FAR
>> 25.562 if you're interested.
>>>
>>> Either this guy's head is solid bone or his head wasn't run over.

>>
>> You know as well as I do that the range of skull strengths is about
>> 100% (150 to 300 gs). You're not going to disprove it with numbers,
>> now if you could track down a web-cam.
>>
>> BTW, what part did the helmet play in spreading the load over his
>> noggin?Yeh, that question would be good for at least another 112
>> posts if we hadn't done this already.

>
> Phil, you don't understand the difference between gees and actual
> weight >do you


That's funny Tom. Head impact criteria considers head acceleration.
300gs for .0036 seconds is about a 3000lb load for that time interval.

>
> The step UP onto something like a head would generate several hundreds
> >of gees. Add the weight of the vehicle and there's absolutely NO WAY

> that could happen.


I would have thought so but, a truck turning right would have the roll
over wheel on the inside with less load. Could have been on two wheels
for all we know.

Why don't you contact him and straighten him out, after all .........
"I didn't see it coming, but I sure felt it roll over my head. It feels
really strange to have a truck run over your head."

Phil H
 
On Wed, 16 May 2007 08:02:42 -0500, Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> OTOH, the REAL humor of this is TK - the relentless 'you weren't
> there' critic


Regarding you, in a temporal sense, he's right. Could you check your
computer's clock? It's ahead. (Especially annoying in non-threaded
view.) Thanks.

--
E. Dronkert
 
On 15 May 2007 19:26:40 -0700, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

>> The guy fell into a truck, struck his head on the ground and had a high
>> speed vehicle pass within fractions of an inch from him. He can be excused
>> if he doesn't know what happened.
>>
>> It's the dumbass reporter that I think ought to be made a laughing stock.

>
>It's an insult to even use the salute dumbass with a reporter,
>especially today, to dumbasses averywhere.


Perhaps, but there are many doing a good job. And there are recorded,
demonstrated examples of cars driving over people at slow motion and
the person living will relatively little damage, so it is in the realm
of possibility for a truck to have passed over the helmeted rider. I
could see situation where certain truck axles would have the tire
largely unweighted - not unsimilar to when a buddy and I lifted and
completely unweighted the rear tire on a TR3 and watched the tire
assembly pass us on the inside, shortly before the rear touched down
and we exited into the trees.

OTOH, the REAL humor of this is TK - the relentless 'you weren't
there' critic - telling us he knows more, much more, than the guy
under the wheel. That alone is enough for me to believe the guy.
Completely.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
[email protected] wrote:
> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934


Any wagers on how soon Giro will start using that guy in their ads?

The guy was lucky. All he lost was a helmet, which Giro will probably
supply a lifetime's worth, and he has a best-in-bar story with visual
aid.

Tom, maybe you want to perform a similar test without a helmet. If
you live, Fosamax or Rogaine would probably be interested in your
story. :)

R
 
On Wed, 16 May 2007 14:33:31 +0200, Ewoud Dronkert
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 May 2007 08:02:42 -0500, Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>> OTOH, the REAL humor of this is TK - the relentless 'you weren't
>> there' critic

>
>Regarding you, in a temporal sense, he's right. Could you check your
>computer's clock? It's ahead. (Especially annoying in non-threaded
>view.) Thanks.


Blame whatever patch Microsoft put out and seems to have made our time
odd. The time on my PC and the time on the server are correct as read
and when you call up the clock. OTOH, the time it feeds to the outside
world is not correct - we've given up trying to figure out what to do
about the timeclock attached to my PC, which is an hour off.

I can't really change it just to make the timeclock right, because
the server will change it to the correct/incorrect time inside of 5
minutes. OTOH, having the incorrect/correct time just screws up my
appointments on Exchange Server anyway.

At least here I'm not IT. It isn't really my problem, other than the
sync issues that are piling up in a folder. Posting from home, its
OK...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...