Bike lanes in MA, dangerous bike lanes and a possible news story



[email protected] wrote:

>
> Even if one feels compelled to ride in the bike lane, it doesn't mean
> you have to ride in the door zone, because some portion of the lane is
> outside the DZ. I agree that NO portion of any bike lane should be in
> a door zone (and in places like Seattle and Denver new bike lanes are
> outside of the doorzones in their entirety). It is not a bike lane
> stripe that 'lures' people to ride in the DZ, but ignorance about the
> DZ. This is shown by the simple fact that some people ride in the DZ
> whether there is a 'door zone bike lane' or not.


Bike lanes are marketed as safe havens for those too timid or
unknowledgable to ride on normal roads. If a portion of the bike lane is
indeed outside the door zone, it is the extreme left side of it. These
biyclists are not going to be thinking about riding on the left side of
the bike lane. They are scared of overtaking motor vehicles and are
inclined to ride as far away from motor vehicles as posssible.



>
> If doorings are what concerns you, you should advocate for bike lane
> striping that compels riders to remain outside of the DZ (like the
> striping of new lanes in Seattle and Denver), rather than leave the
> street unstriped and leave unsuspecting novices to their own devices.

Bike lane striping isn't needed to guide the ignorant. Simple "parking
crosses" are sufficient.
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/door_zone.pdf

Unsuspecting novices shouldn't ride bikes in situations for which they
are ill equipped anymore than unsuspecting motor vehicle drivers should
drive motor vehicles. If you are going to ride in a complex traffic
environment you should be competent.



> So is it really doorings of unsuspecting cyclists that has you
> concerned, Wayne?

I'm concerned about government installed and sanctioned hazards.

Wayne
 
Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:

> goodone wrote:
>
>
> >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
>
> > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
>
> Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.

Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
ineptness), that depends on the width of the asphault inside the bike
lane. If it is three feet wide, the lane meets the design standards
and and riding inside the bike lane while staying on the asphault
should be easy for almost anyone.

If it is substandard, the city that installed it is taking a liability
risk if there is an accident (e.g., if someone catches a wheel in the
slot that forms after the surface degrades at the joint between the
asphault and the gutter pan).

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
Bill Z. wrote:

> Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>goodone wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
>>
>>>Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
>>
>>Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
>
>
> Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> ineptness), that depends on the width of the asphault inside the bike
> lane. If it is three feet wide, the lane meets the design standards
> and and riding inside the bike lane while staying on the asphault
> should be easy for almost anyone.

Don't try to justify maliciousness with ineptitude. It shows you to be a
bike lane apologist.

Clearly this lane is not 3 ft of asphalt, so your point is irrelevant.

Further, people who know something about bicycling argue that 3 ft of
pavement is substandard, irrespective of the fact that foolish
guidelines say it is fine. It's not merely the ability to stay on
asphalt that is important, as you assert. If that were the case, almost
anyone could ride on 2 ft of pavement.

Wayne
 
Wayne Pein wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> Even if one feels compelled to ride in the bike lane, it doesn't mean
>> you have to ride in the door zone, because some portion of the lane
>> is outside the DZ. I agree that NO portion of any bike lane should
>> be in a door zone (and in places like Seattle and Denver new bike
>> lanes are outside of the doorzones in their entirety). It is not a
>> bike lane stripe that 'lures' people to ride in the DZ, but
>> ignorance about the DZ. This is shown by the simple fact that some
>> people ride in the DZ whether there is a 'door zone bike lane' or
>> not.
>
>
> Bike lanes are marketed

Bzzt. "Marketed"?!? Only in Pein's World.

> ... as safe havens for those too timid or
> unknowledgable to ride on normal roads. If a portion of the bike lane
> is indeed outside the door zone, it is the extreme left side of it.
> These biyclists are not going to be thinking about riding on the left
> side of the bike lane. They are scared of overtaking motor vehicles
> and are inclined to ride as far away from motor vehicles as posssible.

Riders like that are in danger all on their own. On roads without bike
lanes they hug the gutter or ride on sidewalks. Hell, getting comfortable
in traffic via /well designed/ bike lanes is a good way to learn how/where
to ride in general. You own/take the space on the right (or correct) side
of the road to the left of the door zone. If a BL gives a novice a bit more
confidence to learn this, then that's an extra bonus.

Only poorly designed bike lanes are detriments.


>> If doorings are what concerns you, you should advocate for bike lane
>> striping that compels riders to remain outside of the DZ (like the
>> striping of new lanes in Seattle and Denver), rather than leave the
>> street unstriped and leave unsuspecting novices to their own devices.
>
> Bike lane striping isn't needed to guide the ignorant. Simple "parking
> crosses" are sufficient.
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/door_zone.pdf
>
> Unsuspecting novices shouldn't ride bikes in situations for which they
> are ill equipped anymore than unsuspecting motor vehicle drivers
> should drive motor vehicles. If you are going to ride in a complex
> traffic environment you should be competent.
>
>
>
>> So is it really doorings of unsuspecting cyclists that has you
>> concerned, Wayne?
>
> I'm concerned about government installed and sanctioned hazards.

Rare, and usually quickly corrected.

BS
 
"Dane Buson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In rec.bicycles.misc [email protected] wrote:
>> On Aug 15, 10:47 am, "OughtFour" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure what that was about, but I hope this reporter does a better
>>> job
>>> on bike lanes, which can kill people if done badly. There are some very
>>> bad
>>> ones in Cambridge.
>>
>> 'Can kill people?' I'm no fan of bike lanes, but to call the poorly
>> designed ones deadly is pretty damn silly.
>>
>> Got any examples of bike lanes killing people?
>
> http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/doorzone/laird1.htm
>
> Classic bike lane as car-door lane fatality.

That was the incident I had in mind. Really awful when it happened.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:

> Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > goodone wrote:
> >
> >
> > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> >
> > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> >
> > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
>
> Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> ineptness),

Even incompetent people can be malicious.

> that depends on the width of the asphault inside the bike
> lane. If it is three feet wide, the lane meets the design standards
> and and riding inside the bike lane while staying on the asphault
> should be easy for almost anyone.
>
> If it is substandard, the city that installed it is taking a liability
> risk if there is an accident (e.g., if someone catches a wheel in the
> slot that forms after the surface degrades at the joint between the
> asphault and the gutter pan).

--
Michael Press
 
Bill Sornson wrote:

> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Even if one feels compelled to ride in the bike lane, it doesn't mean
>>>you have to ride in the door zone, because some portion of the lane
>>>is outside the DZ. I agree that NO portion of any bike lane should
>>>be in a door zone (and in places like Seattle and Denver new bike
>>>lanes are outside of the doorzones in their entirety). It is not a
>>>bike lane stripe that 'lures' people to ride in the DZ, but
>>>ignorance about the DZ. This is shown by the simple fact that some
>>>people ride in the DZ whether there is a 'door zone bike lane' or
>>>not.
>>
>>
>>Bike lanes are marketed
>
>
> Bzzt. "Marketed"?!? Only in Pein's World.

Sornson,

Try to refrain from being an ignoramus for just a minute.

>
>
>>... as safe havens for those too timid or
>>unknowledgable to ride on normal roads. If a portion of the bike lane
>>is indeed outside the door zone, it is the extreme left side of it.
>>These biyclists are not going to be thinking about riding on the left
>>side of the bike lane. They are scared of overtaking motor vehicles
>>and are inclined to ride as far away from motor vehicles as posssible.
>
>
> Riders like that are in danger all on their own. On roads without bike
> lanes they hug the gutter or ride on sidewalks.

Ignoramuses shouldn't ride a bike on scary roads that cause them to do that.

Hell, getting comfortable
> in traffic via /well designed/ bike lanes is a good way to learn how/where
> to ride in general. You own/take the space on the right (or correct) side
> of the road to the left of the door zone.

You're a hoot. Bike lanes teach people where to ride! Hahahahaha.


If a BL gives a novice a bit more
> confidence to learn this, then that's an extra bonus.
>
> Only poorly designed bike lanes are detriments.

Ignoramus,

Why should the rest of us put up with bike lanes, poorly designed or
allegedly "well designed," just so the ignorant can have more confidence?

Bike lanes make ignoramuses believe that they know all they need to know.


>>I'm concerned about government installed and sanctioned hazards.
>
>
> Rare, and usually quickly corrected.


Ignoramus,

If that were the case, then bicyclists wouldn't consistently be involved
in dooring collisions in them.

Wayne
 
On Aug 15, 11:50 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Recently I engaged in a conversation over at ne.transport regarding
> some inadequate bike lanes in the Newburyport, MA area. Shortly after
> posting my reply, I got an email from a Boston area reporter. I don't
> want to copy-paste the exact email in the interest of privacy, but the
> gist was basically that she read my post and she's "heard other
> cyclists complain of useless/dangerous bike lanes". She wanted to
> know if there were any others that stand out as particularly
> dangerous, stating that it may make a good news story for them if
> so.
>
> This seems like a good chance to try to get some public awareness, so
> I figured I'd bounce the concept off of some other cyclists before
> replying to her.

These are UK examples but you can probably just cycle around town and
find some equivalents

http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/ and click on the facility
of the month link.
 
Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
>
> > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > > goodone wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> > >
> > > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> > >
> > > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
> >
> > Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> > ineptness),
>
> Even incompetent people can be malicious.

With respect to bike lanes? Get real.



--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:01:47 -0000, landotter <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Aug 15, 1:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
>> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>>
>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...
>
>
>The Coventry Velodrome
>
>http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August2007.htm
>
>That's spectacular!

Dear LD,

That site is a bit hard to link to--here's your Velodrome:

http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/October2006.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> better job on bike lanes, which can kill people if done badly. There
>> are some very bad ones in Cambridge.
>
> 'Can kill people?' I'm no fan of bike lanes, but to call the poorly
> designed ones deadly is pretty damn silly.
>
> Got any examples of bike lanes killing people?

The gestapo will REQUIRE you to use the bike lane in the door zone.

Riding in Cambridge bears a high liklihood of injury.


--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR
 
On 15 Aug 2007, you wrote in rec.bicycles.misc:

> On Aug 15, 12:26 pm, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/doorzone/laird1.htm
>>
>> Classic bike lane as car-door lane fatality.
>
> "Classic?" Really?
>
> Are you suggesting that people don't ride in the door zone on streets
> with no bike lanes?

I do not. Remember cars can not pass you if they do not have reasonable
room. They will have to wait.

I do not have to give way to a faster moving vehicle in Massachusetts since
I do not have a mirror.

People also treat horses with more respect. They don't rush to pass the
Horse and turn right in front of them like they do in Boston or the
suburbs.

--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR
 
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
>>> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...

> landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The Coventry Velodrome
>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August2007.htm
>> That's spectacular!

[email protected] wrote:
> That site is a bit hard to link to--here's your Velodrome:
> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/October2006.htm

Calling Tom Sherman! Calling Tom Sherman!

An employment opportunity if ever there was one. Anyone who's ever been
astride a bike, even a recumbent, could do better. They need you _now_
in Coventry!
The Civil Service goes home at 4pm, full benefits, vacations and
apparently no pesky performance standards.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
Per William O'Hara:
>I do not. Remember cars can not pass you if they do not have reasonable
>room. They will have to wait.

Was that written tongue-in-cheek?
--
PeteCresswell
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:

> Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> >
> > > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> > >
> > > > goodone wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> > > >
> > > > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> > > >
> > > > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
> > >
> > > Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> > > ineptness),
> >
> > Even incompetent people can be malicious.
>
> With respect to bike lanes? Get real.

I do not understand the question.
Reality is a multifaceted concept.

--
Michael Press
 
On Aug 15, 2:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 15, 9:50 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Recently I engaged in a conversation over at ne.transport regarding
> > some inadequate bike lanes in the Newburyport, MA area. Shortly after
> > posting my reply, I got an email from a Boston area reporter. I don't
> > want to copy-paste the exact email in the interest of privacy, but the
> > gist was basically that she read my post and she's "heard other
> > cyclists complain of useless/dangerous bike lanes". She wanted to
> > know if there were any others that stand out as particularly
> > dangerous, stating that it may make a good news story for them if
> > so.
>
> > This seems like a good chance to try to get some public awareness, so
> > I figured I'd bounce the concept off of some other cyclists before
> > replying to her.
>
> > Link to the thread: http://tinyurl.com/2bw4od
> > Non-tiny link:http://groups.google.com/group/ne.transportation/browse_thread/thread...
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>
> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Of course, the website Carl has pointed to deals only with British
designs. That allows bike lane fans to pretend that such atrocious
designs never occur in America. Or at least, never occur out west
where the roads are wide. Or perhaps never occur since the design
standards got improved. Or at least, haven't occurred very recently.
And if atrocious designs are somehow built by mistake, they will be
speedily corrected by the same dedicated civil servants that designed
and oversaw the mistakes, once those mistakes are gently pointed out.

My experience is quite the opposite, of course. But to a true bike
lane fan, the bad examples simply don't count.

- Frank Krygowski
 
Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
>
> > Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > goodone wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> > > > >
> > > > > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
> > > >
> > > > Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> > > > ineptness),
> > >
> > > Even incompetent people can be malicious.
> >
> > With respect to bike lanes? Get real.
>
> I do not understand the question.
> Reality is a multifaceted concept.

The idea that you have any significant number of malicious government
employees, competent or not, with a thing about bike lanes is
ridiculous (I'd put it at zero except for the possibility of an
undiagnosed psycho somehow managing to hold a job).

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
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