Bike lanes in MA, dangerous bike lanes and a possible news story



In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:

> Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > goodone wrote:
> >
> >
> > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg

> >
> > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.

> >
> > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.

>
> Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> ineptness),


Even incompetent people can be malicious.

> that depends on the width of the asphault inside the bike
> lane. If it is three feet wide, the lane meets the design standards
> and and riding inside the bike lane while staying on the asphault
> should be easy for almost anyone.
>
> If it is substandard, the city that installed it is taking a liability
> risk if there is an accident (e.g., if someone catches a wheel in the
> slot that forms after the surface degrades at the joint between the
> asphault and the gutter pan).


--
Michael Press
 
Bill Sornson wrote:

> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Even if one feels compelled to ride in the bike lane, it doesn't mean
>>>you have to ride in the door zone, because some portion of the lane
>>>is outside the DZ. I agree that NO portion of any bike lane should
>>>be in a door zone (and in places like Seattle and Denver new bike
>>>lanes are outside of the doorzones in their entirety). It is not a
>>>bike lane stripe that 'lures' people to ride in the DZ, but
>>>ignorance about the DZ. This is shown by the simple fact that some
>>>people ride in the DZ whether there is a 'door zone bike lane' or
>>>not.

>>
>>
>>Bike lanes are marketed

>
>
> Bzzt. "Marketed"?!? Only in Pein's World.


Sornson,

Try to refrain from being an ignoramus for just a minute.

>
>
>>... as safe havens for those too timid or
>>unknowledgable to ride on normal roads. If a portion of the bike lane
>>is indeed outside the door zone, it is the extreme left side of it.
>>These biyclists are not going to be thinking about riding on the left
>>side of the bike lane. They are scared of overtaking motor vehicles
>>and are inclined to ride as far away from motor vehicles as posssible.

>
>
> Riders like that are in danger all on their own. On roads without bike
> lanes they hug the gutter or ride on sidewalks.


Ignoramuses shouldn't ride a bike on scary roads that cause them to do that.

Hell, getting comfortable
> in traffic via /well designed/ bike lanes is a good way to learn how/where
> to ride in general. You own/take the space on the right (or correct) side
> of the road to the left of the door zone.


You're a hoot. Bike lanes teach people where to ride! Hahahahaha.


If a BL gives a novice a bit more
> confidence to learn this, then that's an extra bonus.
>
> Only poorly designed bike lanes are detriments.


Ignoramus,

Why should the rest of us put up with bike lanes, poorly designed or
allegedly "well designed," just so the ignorant can have more confidence?

Bike lanes make ignoramuses believe that they know all they need to know.


>>I'm concerned about government installed and sanctioned hazards.

>
>
> Rare, and usually quickly corrected.



Ignoramus,

If that were the case, then bicyclists wouldn't consistently be involved
in dooring collisions in them.

Wayne
 
On Aug 15, 11:50 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Recently I engaged in a conversation over at ne.transport regarding
> some inadequate bike lanes in the Newburyport, MA area. Shortly after
> posting my reply, I got an email from a Boston area reporter. I don't
> want to copy-paste the exact email in the interest of privacy, but the
> gist was basically that she read my post and she's "heard other
> cyclists complain of useless/dangerous bike lanes". She wanted to
> know if there were any others that stand out as particularly
> dangerous, stating that it may make a good news story for them if
> so.
>
> This seems like a good chance to try to get some public awareness, so
> I figured I'd bounce the concept off of some other cyclists before
> replying to her.


These are UK examples but you can probably just cycle around town and
find some equivalents

http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/ and click on the facility
of the month link.
 
On 2007-08-16, (PeteCresswell) <[email protected]> wrote:
> Per [email protected]:
>>Are you suggesting that people don't ride in the door zone on streets
>>with no bike lanes?

>
> There's a conflict that I sometimes see with some bike lanes: To
> ride far enough away from parked cars to avoid getting doored,
> sometimes the cyclist has to encroach on the car lane.
>
> You do that enough and eventually you'll find drivers that
> consider you to be out of line - riding in *their* lane instead
> of that perfectly good bike lane - and who will harass you
> accordingly, sometimes passing with way, way, way too little
> room.


This happens, but in my experience it has little to do with
bike lanes. It is true that if you need to ride outside the
bike lane, while most motorists will deal with it, the occasional
one will get their shorts in a knot, but it is equally true that
when you are far enough left to be safe on a road without bike
lanes, while most motorists will deal with it, the occasional
one will get their shorts in a knot. I don't think this happens
any more often with bike lanes than without. It may be they'll be
yelling "Ride in the bike lane" in the first case and "Ride
on the sidewalk" or "Get off the road" in the second case, but
the difference isn't too important. The ones that want to yell
will yell whether there's a bike lane or not, and the ones that
want to pass too close will do it whether there's a bike lane
or not. In either case if you can't stay far enough right to
safely share the lane with the cars you've got to be far enough
left to make sure they realize they need to change lanes to
get by you, and you'll need to deal with the occasional ********.

> A few lessons like that - or even the prospect of same - and
> people who aren't doing a lot of deep thinking on the subject
> (i.e. most people...) will stay well within the defective bike
> lane... and get doored from time-to-time.


And the same person, when they're scared like this on a road without
bike lanes, will be just as close to the parked cars. I don't think
it matters whether the bike lane is there or not.

Dennis Ferguson
 
On Aug 16, 11:17 am, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > There are some dangerous "bike trails" (separate
> > from traffic) that I never use, and if some cop does not like me
> > riding in traffic, then I could get busted.

>
> This is what makes bicycle lanes a bad idea.
> The camel's nose is in the tent.


Yes, but I think the upside is still pretty up, having lived with and
without them on the same busy road. Because there are local laws
requiring the addition of bike lanes when constructing or
reconstructing roadways, it means that we at least get some space that
we otherwise wouldn't have. It is also a benefit that the bike lane is
considered a traffic lane and gives cyclist right of way that they
would not otherwise have -- like against turning cars. It is clearly
an imperfect solution, but at least it is something. I know there are
more global arguments that can be made against them, but in my
personal experience, they have been good.

On another topic, a local professor did a study and determined that
merely installing bike lanes did not increase ridership by people
living within a quarter mile of the bike lanes. I guess this means
that people do not feel safe in bike lanes or that they are not
staying off their bikes simply because there are no bike lanes. The
latter explanation tracks my experience -- those people who say "oh,
commuting in traffic is so dangerous" are usually Jaba the Desk
Jockeys who would not commute even if there were dedicated bicycle
chutes from their front doors to work. -- Jay Beattie.
 
Per Bob Quindazzi:
>Every dime that goes into bike lanes could be much better spent on
>cycling/driving education, "share the road" signs and improving
>current roads.


The ones that scare me the most aren't uneducated; they're
preoccupied - with phone conversations, text messaging, or email.
--
PeteCresswell
 
Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
>
> > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > > goodone wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> > >
> > > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> > >
> > > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.

> >
> > Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> > ineptness),

>
> Even incompetent people can be malicious.


With respect to bike lanes? Get real.



--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:01:47 -0000, landotter <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Aug 15, 1:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
>> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>>
>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...

>
>
>The Coventry Velodrome
>
>http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August2007.htm
>
>That's spectacular!


Dear LD,

That site is a bit hard to link to--here's your Velodrome:

http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/October2006.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> better job on bike lanes, which can kill people if done badly. There
>> are some very bad ones in Cambridge.

>
> 'Can kill people?' I'm no fan of bike lanes, but to call the poorly
> designed ones deadly is pretty damn silly.
>
> Got any examples of bike lanes killing people?


The gestapo will REQUIRE you to use the bike lane in the door zone.

Riding in Cambridge bears a high liklihood of injury.


--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR
 
On 15 Aug 2007, you wrote in rec.bicycles.misc:

> On Aug 15, 12:26 pm, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/doorzone/laird1.htm
>>
>> Classic bike lane as car-door lane fatality.

>
> "Classic?" Really?
>
> Are you suggesting that people don't ride in the door zone on streets
> with no bike lanes?


I do not. Remember cars can not pass you if they do not have reasonable
room. They will have to wait.

I do not have to give way to a faster moving vehicle in Massachusetts since
I do not have a mirror.

People also treat horses with more respect. They don't rush to pass the
Horse and turn right in front of them like they do in Boston or the
suburbs.

--
---
William O'Hara
www.N1ey.com - Amateur Radio and Railfan Blog
www.yahoogroups.com/group/illinoiscentral - premier discussion list re:
ICRR
 
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
>>> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...


> landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The Coventry Velodrome
>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August2007.htm
>> That's spectacular!


[email protected] wrote:
> That site is a bit hard to link to--here's your Velodrome:
> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/October2006.htm


Calling Tom Sherman! Calling Tom Sherman!

An employment opportunity if ever there was one. Anyone who's ever been
astride a bike, even a recumbent, could do better. They need you _now_
in Coventry!
The Civil Service goes home at 4pm, full benefits, vacations and
apparently no pesky performance standards.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
Per William O'Hara:
>I do not. Remember cars can not pass you if they do not have reasonable
>room. They will have to wait.


Was that written tongue-in-cheek?
--
PeteCresswell
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:

> Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> >
> > > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> > >
> > > > goodone wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> > > >
> > > > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> > > >
> > > > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
> > >
> > > Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> > > ineptness),

> >
> > Even incompetent people can be malicious.

>
> With respect to bike lanes? Get real.


I do not understand the question.
Reality is a multifaceted concept.

--
Michael Press
 
On Aug 15, 2:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 15, 9:50 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Recently I engaged in a conversation over at ne.transport regarding
> > some inadequate bike lanes in the Newburyport, MA area. Shortly after
> > posting my reply, I got an email from a Boston area reporter. I don't
> > want to copy-paste the exact email in the interest of privacy, but the
> > gist was basically that she read my post and she's "heard other
> > cyclists complain of useless/dangerous bike lanes". She wanted to
> > know if there were any others that stand out as particularly
> > dangerous, stating that it may make a good news story for them if
> > so.

>
> > This seems like a good chance to try to get some public awareness, so
> > I figured I'd bounce the concept off of some other cyclists before
> > replying to her.

>
> > Link to the thread: http://tinyurl.com/2bw4od
> > Non-tiny link:http://groups.google.com/group/ne.transportation/browse_thread/thread...

>
> Dear Dan,
>
> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>
> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel


Of course, the website Carl has pointed to deals only with British
designs. That allows bike lane fans to pretend that such atrocious
designs never occur in America. Or at least, never occur out west
where the roads are wide. Or perhaps never occur since the design
standards got improved. Or at least, haven't occurred very recently.
And if atrocious designs are somehow built by mistake, they will be
speedily corrected by the same dedicated civil servants that designed
and oversaw the mistakes, once those mistakes are gently pointed out.

My experience is quite the opposite, of course. But to a true bike
lane fan, the bad examples simply don't count.

- Frank Krygowski
 
Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
>
> > Michael Press <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > goodone wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>http://motorman.org/wp-content/gutterpan_02.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > > Only high skilled cyclists can ride on this kind lane.
> > > > >
> > > > > Only highly malicious government employees create this kind of lane.
> > > >
> > > > Aside from the paranoia (attributing malice to what might merely be
> > > > ineptness),
> > >
> > > Even incompetent people can be malicious.

> >
> > With respect to bike lanes? Get real.

>
> I do not understand the question.
> Reality is a multifaceted concept.


The idea that you have any significant number of malicious government
employees, competent or not, with a thing about bike lanes is
ridiculous (I'd put it at zero except for the possibility of an
undiagnosed psycho somehow managing to hold a job).

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
[email protected] writes:

> On Aug 15, 2:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Aug 15, 9:50 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:


>
> Of course, the website Carl has pointed to deals only with British
> designs. That allows bike lane fans to pretend that such atrocious
> designs never occur in America. Or at least, never occur out west
> where the roads are wide. Or perhaps never occur since the design
> standards got improved. Or at least, haven't occurred very recently.


Or we can just be honest and note that bike lanes that meet the
current design standards are not a problem. The idea that nobody
ever screws up is a figment of Krygowksi's imagination, but he
frequently puts out strawman arguments or tries to put words in
people's mouths.

> And if atrocious designs are somehow built by mistake, they will be
> speedily corrected by the same dedicated civil servants that designed
> and oversaw the mistakes, once those mistakes are gently pointed out.


Odd. I know of a couple of cases in town where a bike lane was
installed so as to be substandard and they were quickly fixed.
In one case the lane was removed after what I believe was a
design error. In the other, some pavement work was done and
there was an existing, very old lane where the distance from
the lane stripe to the gutter pan was too small. The contractor
who did the striping just followed the old lane. He had
screwed up and had to replace it and bring the new section up
to the current design standards.

> My experience is quite the opposite, of course. But to a true bike
> lane fan, the bad examples simply don't count.


Krygowski's experience is usually a figment of his imagination and
stated for rhetorical effect. :)

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
Wayne Pein wrote:
> ...It shows you [Bill Zaumen] to be a bike lane apologist....


In other breaking news...

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> On Aug 15, 9:50 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Recently I engaged in a conversation over at ne.transport regarding
>>> some inadequate bike lanes in the Newburyport, MA area. Shortly after
>>> posting my reply, I got an email from a Boston area reporter. I don't
>>> want to copy-paste the exact email in the interest of privacy, but the
>>> gist was basically that she read my post and she's "heard other
>>> cyclists complain of useless/dangerous bike lanes". She wanted to
>>> know if there were any others that stand out as particularly
>>> dangerous, stating that it may make a good news story for them if
>>> so.
>>>
>>> This seems like a good chance to try to get some public awareness, so
>>> I figured I'd bounce the concept off of some other cyclists before
>>> replying to her.
>>>
>>> Link to the thread: http://tinyurl.com/2bw4od
>>> Non-tiny
>>> link:http://groups.google.com/group/ne.transportation/browse_thread/thread...
>>>

>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
>> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August2007.htm
>>

>
> That's precious!
> Hadn't noticed the archive on my earlier visit.


One of my all time favorites is the two-way "bike path" on the south
side of University Avenue [1], since it puts cyclists right in the path
of left-turning motor vehicles.

[1] Just a couple of blocks from Andrew's shop.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
landotter wrote:
> On Aug 15, 1:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> You can scroll back through monthly pictures with captions of
>> exquisite British bicycle road and path mis-design here:
>>
>> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August...

>
>
> The Coventry Velodrome
>
> http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/August2007.htm
>
> That's spectacular!


At UIUC, on of the "bicycle paths" has knee height concrete ventilation
boxes in the middle of the path. Needless to say, I always used the streets.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com