Bike racks on Canberra buses

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Bean Long, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. Bean Long

    Bean Long Guest

    Hi all,

    In the past month or so, several ACTION buses here in Canberra have been
    driving around with bike racks on their fronts but signs saying they are not
    yet in operation. I asked what the deal was and got the following reply:

    Thanks for your email on bike racks.
    The bike racks you have seen are on trial only, to sort out any operational
    issues that may occur. The bike racks will then be fitted to a larger number
    of buses and the public will then be able to use the bike racks, however I
    don't have an actual start date at this stage..

    Before these bike racks come into operation, ACTION will commence a
    communications campaign designed to tell you everything you need to know
    about using the bike racks (they're very easy to use!).

    I hope this information is of assistance. I would suggest you keep a look
    out on our website, as this will have information on the bike racks as soon
    as the start date is announced.

    Regards

    Lynda

    ACTION Customer Service Team

    It's a great idea, especially given the distances some commuters might have
    to travel in Canberra to get to work. The racks look similar to those I've
    seen in Seattle in the US where they are frequently used and well thought
    of. Anyone else got them on their local buses?
    --
    Bean

    Remove "yourfinger" before replying
     
    Tags:


  2. Tamyka Bell

    Tamyka Bell Guest

    Bean Long wrote:
    >
    > Hi all,
    >
    > In the past month or so, several ACTION buses here in Canberra have been
    > driving around with bike racks on their fronts but signs saying they are not
    > yet in operation. I asked what the deal was and got the following reply:
    >
    > Thanks for your email on bike racks.
    > The bike racks you have seen are on trial only, to sort out any operational
    > issues that may occur. The bike racks will then be fitted to a larger number
    > of buses and the public will then be able to use the bike racks, however I
    > don't have an actual start date at this stage..
    >
    > Before these bike racks come into operation, ACTION will commence a
    > communications campaign designed to tell you everything you need to know
    > about using the bike racks (they're very easy to use!).
    >
    > I hope this information is of assistance. I would suggest you keep a look
    > out on our website, as this will have information on the bike racks as soon
    > as the start date is announced.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Lynda
    >
    > ACTION Customer Service Team
    >
    > It's a great idea, especially given the distances some commuters might have
    > to travel in Canberra to get to work. The racks look similar to those I've
    > seen in Seattle in the US where they are frequently used and well thought
    > of. Anyone else got them on their local buses?
    > --
    > Bean
    >
    > Remove "yourfinger" before replying


    We've had them in Brissie for ages, but only on certain bus routes...
    NOT the ones I use.

    Tam
     
  3. Euan

    Euan Guest

    >>>>> "Bean" == Bean Long <[email protected]> writes:

    Bean> Hi all, In the past month or so, several ACTION buses here in
    Bean> Canberra have been driving around with bike racks on their
    Bean> fronts but signs saying they are not yet in operation. I
    Bean> asked what the deal was and got the following reply:

    I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with paramedics
    and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not the size of 4WDs
    that's the problem with pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which
    concentrate all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.

    How are these bike racks any different?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for multi-modal transport but this strikes
    me as sacrificing safety for convenience which isn't what it's all
    about. I mean why put them on the front of the bus, what's wrong with
    the rear?
    --
    Cheers | ~~ [email protected]
    Euan | ~~ _-\<,
    Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)
     
  4. Bean Long

    Bean Long Guest

    "Euan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >>>>> "Bean" == Bean Long <[email protected]> writes:

    >
    > Bean> Hi all, In the past month or so, several ACTION buses here in
    > Bean> Canberra have been driving around with bike racks on their
    > Bean> fronts but signs saying they are not yet in operation. I
    > Bean> asked what the deal was and got the following reply:
    >
    >I mean why put them on the front of the bus, what's wrong with
    > the rear?


    My guess is that it means quicker stop and the driver can see what's going
    on in front of him. As for collisions... I wouldn't want to get hit by a
    bus, bike rack or not!

    --
    Bean

    Remove "yourfinger" before replying
     
  5. SteveA

    SteveA New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,309
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    0
    In the early '90s, Perth buses had pram/stroller racks on the rear. They took them off after a couple of incidents where the mums put the perambulator containing the kid on the hooks and the driver took off before mum could get the kid out and get on the bus. "Bye mum, I'm going into town by myself, wheeee"

    SteveA
     
  6. In aus.bicycle on Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:39:45 +1000
    SteveA <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > In the early '90s, Perth buses had pram/stroller racks on the rear.
    > They took them off after a couple of incidents where the mums put the
    > perambulator containing the kid on the hooks and the driver took off
    > before mum could get the kid out and get on the bus. "Bye mum, I'm
    > going into town by myself, wheeee"


    Yanno... I grew up in Perth.

    Those racks were on the busses since at least the 1960s.

    The reason given in the papers for them being taken off was that the
    driver didn't have the time anymore to help people get the prams on and
    off the racks, and it was an occ health safety issue for the drivers
    too, lifting heavy things to a height.

    A few seconds reflection will be enough to realise that even if the
    hooks were low, it's a lot more work to lift a pram with a kid in it
    then to remove the kid first, and so the story given is a tad unlikely.

    Zebee
     
  7. HUMBUG

    HUMBUG Guest

    On 21/09/05 at 11:38:57 Euan somehow managed to type:

    <snip>

    >
    > I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with
    > paramedics and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not the
    > size of 4WDs that's the problem with pedestrian accidents, it's the
    > bull bars which concentrate all that kinetic energy in to lethal
    > force.


    Um, it's a BUS. Bike rack or bullbar or not, if you get hit by a bus
    you'll quite probably come out of it not very well at all... At least,
    by and large, suburban PT busses are driven by competent drivers.
    Granted there are exceptions but most of 'em are pretty good...

    Now, in the case of bullbars on Prados you're (we're) dealing with
    something completely and totally else. ie. A large vehicle that's
    aimed, more or less inaccurately, by a moron who carries on blissfully
    oblivious to its surroundings and the carnage it leaves behind.


    --
    Humbug
     
  8. Euan wrote:

    > I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with paramedics
    > and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not the size of 4WDs
    > that's the problem with pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which
    > concentrate all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.
    >
    > How are these bike racks any different?


    Probably not, but do the stats show that buses run into many peds?
    I know they havebeen used OS (California) for about 3 decades.

    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm all for multi-modal transport but this strikes
    > me as sacrificing safety for convenience which isn't what it's all
    > about. I mean why put them on the front of the bus, what's wrong with
    > the rear?


    Driver can see clearly what is happening. Very hard to get same view
    with multiple cameras.
     
  9. DJ

    DJ Guest

    "Terry Collins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:4[email protected]com.au...
    > Euan wrote:
    >
    >> I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with paramedics
    >> and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not the size of 4WDs
    >> that's the problem with pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which
    >> concentrate all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.
    >>
    >> How are these bike racks any different?

    >
    > Probably not, but do the stats show that buses run into many peds?
    > I know they havebeen used OS (California) for about 3 decades.
    >
    >>
    >> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for multi-modal transport but this strikes
    >> me as sacrificing safety for convenience which isn't what it's all
    >> about. I mean why put them on the front of the bus, what's wrong with
    >> the rear?

    >
    > Driver can see clearly what is happening. Very hard to get same view
    > with multiple cameras.


    Not only that..., if the bike racks were on the back of the bus, what's
    stopping someone who sees a nice looking $2,000+ cycle, waiting for the
    bus to stop at lights, running up and taking the bike off the rack and
    riding away before someone has a chance to do something. They have to be
    easy to put on and take off otherwise it's just going to stuff up the time
    tables and hold up traffic...

    Just a thought!!

    DJ
     
  10. Euan

    Euan Guest

    >>>>> "HUMBUG" == HUMBUG <[email protected]> writes:

    HUMBUG> On 21/09/05 at 11:38:57 Euan somehow managed to type: <snip>

    >> I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with
    >> paramedics and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not
    >> the size of 4WDs that's the problem with pedestrian accidents,
    >> it's the bull bars which concentrate all that kinetic energy in
    >> to lethal force.


    HUMBUG> Um, it's a BUS. Bike rack or bullbar or not, if you get hit
    HUMBUG> by a bus you'll quite probably come out of it not very well
    HUMBUG> at all... At least, by and large, suburban PT busses are
    HUMBUG> driven by competent drivers. Granted there are exceptions
    HUMBUG> but most of 'em are pretty good...

    It's not the bus drivers I'm worried about, more the lemming like
    behaviour of pedestrians.

    Seriously, they're their own worst enemy. They don't obey the road
    rules, they're unpredictable, liable to swerve out in front of you at a
    moment's notice. Hardly any of them wear reflective clothing at night,
    they're just asking to get hit. They ought to be registered and have a
    competency certificate before being allowed on public thoroughfares. I
    hesitate to call them idiots, but they are!

    Tongue firmly in cheek, in case anyone was wondering.
    --
    Cheers | ~~ [email protected]
    Euan | ~~ _-\<,
    Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)
     
  11. SteveA

    SteveA New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,309
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe they were babies in prams (rather than toddlers), the sort that could not be laid on the footpath while the pram was lifted onto the hooks. I'm not sure if this led to the removal of the hooks, but a number of incidents were reported at the time in the media (and we know the media does not make things up).

    The other reason given at the time was that there was a security issue with the driver being out of his seat of the bus while it was in service. Although I didn't hear any stories at the time of passengers hijacking busses while the driver was at the back assisting the parent to hook up a pram.

    SteveA
     
  12. BrettM

    BrettM Guest

    Euan <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >>>>>> "Bean" == Bean Long <[email protected]>
    >>>>>> writes:

    >
    > Bean> Hi all, In the past month or so, several ACTION
    > buses here in Bean> Canberra have been driving around
    > with bike racks on their Bean> fronts but signs saying
    > they are not yet in operation. I Bean> asked what the
    > deal was and got the following reply:
    >
    > I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work
    > with paramedics and have been told on numerous occasions
    > that it's not the size of 4WDs that's the problem with
    > pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which concentrate
    > all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.
    >
    > How are these bike racks any different?
    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm all for multi-modal transport but
    > this strikes me as sacrificing safety for convenience which
    > isn't what it's all about. I mean why put them on the
    > front of the bus, what's wrong with the rear?


    Bullbar - rigid forward projection designed to deflect heavy
    objects

    Bikes and rack - Not so rigid forward projection not designed
    to deflect heavy objects guaranteed to fold up like a preztel
    at the first pothole.

    Seriously the design (of the ones I've seen) is supposedly
    pedestrian friendly, that it it has no sharp projections so
    should be no worse than hitting the bus (bad in itself).

    The worst injuries I've seen in relation to peds and bullbars
    is due to fitments like whinches and cables, rod racks and
    atenna brackets. These things aren't supposed to be in front
    of the bullbar anyway (but often are). They tend to cut into
    the person.

    The big issue with bullbars is the treatment they give to
    smaller cars where they significantly increase the intrusion
    into the vehicle by concentrating the load. Most passenger
    cars, trucks and buses are distinctly ped unfriendly. The
    best you can hope for is to be thrown under or over the
    vehicle. 4wds tend to just plough through.

    Interestingly some research from England suggests that there
    is a correlation between the introduction of low floor buses
    and the severity of ped injuries. The guess is that they get
    "caught" by the bus rather than be able to pass under the
    front of it.

    Cheers
    Brett"reader in esoteric traffic safety bs"M
     
  13. DD

    DD Guest

    SteveA wrote:
    > Euan Wrote:
    >
    >>>>>>>"Bean" == Bean Long <[email protected]> writes:

    >>
    >>Bean> Hi all, In the past month or so, several ACTION buses here in
    >>Bean> Canberra have been driving around with bike racks on their
    >>Bean> fronts but signs saying they are not yet in operation. I
    >>Bean> asked what the deal was and got the following reply:
    >>
    >>I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with paramedics
    >>and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not the size of 4WDs
    >>that's the problem with pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which
    >>concentrate all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.
    >>
    >>How are these bike racks any different?
    >>
    >>Don't get me wrong, I'm all for multi-modal transport but this strikes
    >>me as sacrificing safety for convenience which isn't what it's all
    >>about. I mean why put them on the front of the bus, what's wrong with
    >>the rear?
    >>--
    >>Cheers | ~~ [email protected]
    >>Euan | ~~ _-\<,
    >>Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

    >
    >
    > In the early '90s, Perth buses had pram/stroller racks on the rear.
    > They took them off after a couple of incidents where the mums put the
    > perambulator containing the kid on the hooks and the driver took off
    > before mum could get the kid out and get on the bus. "Bye mum, I'm
    > going into town by myself, wheeee"
    >
    > SteveA
    >
    >

    I remember that, the last incident was in Freo and reported in all the
    local papers before Transperth pulled the plug on rear hangers. As to
    front hangers the PTA has a $5000 front bike rack but are yet to use it
    and the local BUG groups are trying to get a trial up an running, PTA
    yet to oblige.
    BTW I heard that there is only a 9% survival rate for pedestrians for
    being hit by a bus, hence the term about feeling like being hit by a
    bus. I guess having a rack on the front or not makes little difference
    when that bus hits you, with 91% chance that you're booked into a
    wormfarm anyway.
     
  14. aeek

    aeek New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    0
    quick google:
    http://www.netspeed.com.au/cr/bicycle/buscycle.htm

    1997: the original Action trial was blocked - the Federal Office of Road Safety stated that "bicycle racks fitted to the front of buses are not
    technically essential for the operation of the buses and are likely to increase the risk of bodily injury to persons, eg pedestrians."

    They are essential if you want buses to serve cyclists.
     
  15. Plodder

    Plodder Guest

    "SteveA" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
    > > In aus.bicycle on Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:39:45 +1000
    > > SteveA <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > In the early '90s, Perth buses had pram/stroller racks on the rear.
    > > > They took them off after a couple of incidents where the mums put the
    > > > perambulator containing the kid on the hooks and the driver took off
    > > > before mum could get the kid out and get on the bus. "Bye mum, I'm
    > > > going into town by myself, wheeee"

    > >
    > > Yanno... I grew up in Perth.
    > >
    > > Those racks were on the busses since at least the 1960s.
    > >
    > > The reason given in the papers for them being taken off was that the
    > > driver didn't have the time anymore to help people get the prams on and
    > > off the racks, and it was an occ health safety issue for the drivers
    > > too, lifting heavy things to a height.
    > >
    > > A few seconds reflection will be enough to realise that even if the
    > > hooks were low, it's a lot more work to lift a pram with a kid in it
    > > then to remove the kid first, and so the story given is a tad unlikely.
    > >
    > > Zebee

    > I believe they were babies in prams (rather than toddlers), the sort
    > that could not be laid on the footpath while the pram was lifted onto
    > the hooks. I'm not sure if this led to the removal of the hooks, but a
    > number of incidents were reported at the time in the media (and we know
    > the media does not make things up).
    >
    > The other reason given at the time was that there was a security issue
    > with the driver being out of his seat of the bus while it was in
    > service. Although I didn't hear any stories at the time of passengers
    > hijacking busses while the driver was at the back assisting the parent
    > to hook up a pram.
    >
    > SteveA


    It wouldn't surprise me if the hooks were taken off to stop young twits
    using them to hitch a ride on the back of the bus. Hang on to the hooks and
    feet on the bumper. I travelled about 40km by bus to go to school (Calista
    to Freo) so I saw this almost every day (and participated too, before anyone
    asks!). Hey, we were young and times were less restrictive! When you think
    about the safety aspect of the fun we had, it makes more sense than the pram
    thing.

    Cheers,

    Frank
     
  16. Plodder

    Plodder Guest

    "Terry Collins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected].com.au
    ....
    > Euan wrote:
    >
    > > I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work with paramedics
    > > and have been told on numerous occasions that it's not the size of 4WDs
    > > that's the problem with pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which
    > > concentrate all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.
    > >
    > > How are these bike racks any different?


    I remember reading something that stated that the biggest risk with bull
    bars is that it overcomes the design of car bonnets to throw a pedestrian up
    on to the bonnet rather than pushing them under the wheels, lessening
    injuries. The bull bar, as Euan wrote, concentrates the kinetic energy into
    an impact where a a properly designed bonnet uses some of the kinetic energy
    to throw the pedestrian who sheds energy as they fly.

    Buses are not designed that way, so I doubt a bull bar, bike rack or much
    else will mitigate the impact with a bus.

    Cheers,

    Frank
     
  17. Bean Long

    Bean Long Guest

    Well, what do you know... I thought they looked like the one's I'd seen in
    Seattle!

    --
    Bean

    Remove "yourfinger" before replying
    "aeek" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > DD Wrote:
    > >
    > > BTW I heard that there is only a 9% survival rate for pedestrians for
    > > being hit by a bus, hence the term about feeling like being hit by a
    > > bus. I guess having a rack on the front or not makes little difference
    > > when that bus hits you, with 91% chance that you're booked into a
    > > wormfarm anyway.

    >
    > quick google:
    > http://www.netspeed.com.au/cr/bicycle/buscycle.htm
    >
    > 1997: the original Action trial was blocked - the Federal Office of
    > Road Safety stated that "bicycle racks fitted to the front of buses are
    > not
    > technically essential for the operation of the buses and are likely to
    > increase the risk of bodily injury to persons, eg pedestrians."
    >
    > They are essential if you want buses to serve cyclists.
    >
    >
    > --
    > aeek
    >
     
  18. Bean Long

    Bean Long Guest

    Yes, I have to say that the racks I have seen here in canberra look pretty
    low weight (probably thin aluminium piping) with rubber coating on some of
    the welds). They don't bare any resemblance to a bull-bar and look floppy
    rather than rigid. It's the bikes that might be a nasty thing to get hit by
    if a bus sneaks up on you. Then again, as I said before, I'd prefer not to
    be hit by a bus full-stop! My uncle was tragically killed when hit by a bus
    while training for a bike race when he was just 19 (he now has a road race
    named in his honour in Victoria's western district, of which I am very
    proud). That was back in the 50's and I'm sure there were no bike racks on
    the bus!

    --
    Bean

    Remove "yourfinger" before replying
    "BrettM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Euan <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    > >>>>>> "Bean" == Bean Long <[email protected]>
    > >>>>>> writes:

    > >
    > > Bean> Hi all, In the past month or so, several ACTION
    > > buses here in Bean> Canberra have been driving around
    > > with bike racks on their Bean> fronts but signs saying
    > > they are not yet in operation. I Bean> asked what the
    > > deal was and got the following reply:
    > >
    > > I can't help but think that this is a bad idea. I work
    > > with paramedics and have been told on numerous occasions
    > > that it's not the size of 4WDs that's the problem with
    > > pedestrian accidents, it's the bull bars which concentrate
    > > all that kinetic energy in to lethal force.
    > >
    > > How are these bike racks any different?
    > >
    > > Don't get me wrong, I'm all for multi-modal transport but
    > > this strikes me as sacrificing safety for convenience which
    > > isn't what it's all about. I mean why put them on the
    > > front of the bus, what's wrong with the rear?

    >
    > Bullbar - rigid forward projection designed to deflect heavy
    > objects
    >
    > Bikes and rack - Not so rigid forward projection not designed
    > to deflect heavy objects guaranteed to fold up like a preztel
    > at the first pothole.
    >
    > Seriously the design (of the ones I've seen) is supposedly
    > pedestrian friendly, that it it has no sharp projections so
    > should be no worse than hitting the bus (bad in itself).
    >
    > The worst injuries I've seen in relation to peds and bullbars
    > is due to fitments like whinches and cables, rod racks and
    > atenna brackets. These things aren't supposed to be in front
    > of the bullbar anyway (but often are). They tend to cut into
    > the person.
    >
    > The big issue with bullbars is the treatment they give to
    > smaller cars where they significantly increase the intrusion
    > into the vehicle by concentrating the load. Most passenger
    > cars, trucks and buses are distinctly ped unfriendly. The
    > best you can hope for is to be thrown under or over the
    > vehicle. 4wds tend to just plough through.
    >
    > Interestingly some research from England suggests that there
    > is a correlation between the introduction of low floor buses
    > and the severity of ped injuries. The guess is that they get
    > "caught" by the bus rather than be able to pass under the
    > front of it.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Brett"reader in esoteric traffic safety bs"M
     
  19. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2005-09-21, Plodder (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > It wouldn't surprise me if the hooks were taken off to stop young twits
    > using them to hitch a ride on the back of the bus. Hang on to the hooks and
    > feet on the bumper. I travelled about 40km by bus to go to school (Calista
    > to Freo) so I saw this almost every day (and participated too, before anyone
    > asks!). Hey, we were young and times were less restrictive! When you think
    > about the safety aspect of the fun we had, it makes more sense than the pram
    > thing.


    Kids have no fun these days. They are all forced to live in a padded
    cell.

    It build character to fall off a 30 foot high uncovered metal slide in
    40 degree heat, with bits of razor between the metal sheets.


    Why, back when I was a kid, we had to ride both ways uphill in the
    snow!

    --
    TimC
    So there you have it, supplicant. The Europeans aren't morally superior
    to you [USAnians] at all. Just intellectually. -- The Internet Oracle
     
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