Bike Weight redux

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Doug Taylor, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer. This is
    >my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of my club.
    >
    >http://udac78.free.fr/
    >
    >18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >
    >You're welcome.


    What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    Euros, n'est ce pas?
     


  2. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Doug Taylor <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer.
    >> This is my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of my
    >> club.
    >>
    >> http://udac78.free.fr/
    >>
    >> 18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >>
    >> You're welcome.

    >
    > What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    > Euros, n'est ce pas?

    Between 7 and 8 kgÉ figure on 2000+ euros, which includes 19.6% "sales" tax
    in FR.
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
     
  3. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    Doug Taylor wrote:
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer. This is
    >>my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of my club.
    >>
    >>http://udac78.free.fr/
    >>
    >>18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >>
    >>You're welcome.

    >
    >
    > What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    > Euros, n'est ce pas?



    I just build a bike for a friend: 7.5 kg, 2400 euro's.

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu
     
  4. Mike Krueger wrote:
    > Mike Reed wrote:
    > > My brother-in-law recently purchased a Fuji for a good deal. The
    > > American Classic Sprint 350 wheels are really light, but they are
    > > already crumbling under his 220 lbs weight. Plucking the front spokes
    > > sounds like a 3-year-old playing the piano with his elbows.
    > >
    > > He's already ordered some parts for me to build him a set of 36H
    > > Deep-Vs. He has let go of the bike weight, and I'm proud of him for it.

    >
    > I recently met a new rider who's a few years younger than I am. The guy
    > weighs 230, but he hopes to lose 40 lbs. He proudly showed me his new
    > aluminum, compact-geometry road bike with some brand-I-never-heard-of
    > aftermarket 18-spoke clincher wheelset. He says the wheels have held up
    > so far, even after hitting a curb, so he's now convinced he could get
    > *lighter* wheels. He kept insisting he needed to upgrade to *lighter*
    > wheels, as if the 18-spoke wheels were holding him back somehow.
    > Meanwhile, I'm riding along on my red label Mavic GP4's thinking, "Boy,
    > am I a retro-grouch...these old wheels have served me well, and I still
    > like them."



    > The power of marketing is amazing.


    Yes, it is. And some are more easily influenced than others. Of course,
    if you're a newbie like the guy you're talking about, you're more
    likely to buy into the drivel coming from the gang at the LBS and the
    "buy! buy! buy!" chant coming from Buycycling magazine.


    > Unlike others, I always try to learn
    > as much as I can about something before I buy into it.


    It also helps to be able to think for yourself.
     
  5. Skippy

    Skippy Guest

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    [snipped]
    >
    > It is but the bicycle industry, with Trek, Specilized and Giant+others
    > at the lead, wonder why it's shrinking. Drivel at it's highest, and
    > it's going to get smaller before the 'big boys' realize that they are
    > the problem.
    >


    Specialized, Trek and Giant, don't publish weights for bikes in the shiny
    catalogues these days. Weight has always been the single metric that people
    use (incorrectly) to judge a bike.

    Ultimately, no bike company is going to stay in business if they don't claim
    their products are light. We, the consumers, are partly to blame for
    marketing departments making weight a big issue, instead of ride quality, or
    performance, or reliability, durability, or colour, or squirrel-resistance,
    or whatever.

    I know that the three manufacturers above do dish out their fair share of
    drivel, but they're not alone. I don't see how marketing drivel makes the
    market shrink, unless we're dumb enough to believe it. We're not forced to
    buy bikes, unless they're really nice and shiny!...


    Skippy
    E&OE
     
  6. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Sandy wrote:
    > Anyway, it's not realisitc to buy things when at or over the limit.


    That gets back to my point. Can you point me to a road racing bike
    available for sale in the US with Ultegra level components that comes
    with wheels built for a 220 lb man?

    Note that this doesn't mean it's for an out of shape man. A local hero,
    Robbie Robinette, probably runs 215 or 220, and he's the National
    Masters Road Champion:
    http://www.teamhotelsanjose.com/ths...=/thsjcorp/Portals/0/Bio_Robbie_Robinette.jpg
    http://www.teamhotelsanjose.com/ths...341&tabid=1&img=/thsjdnn/Portals/0/robbie.jpg

    My brother-in-law, however, is no national champ :) Still, the racing
    bikes available today are underbuilt. Period.

    > Given the unlikely prospect that the guy will drop 60 pounds in short order,
    > that's correct.


    It's 20 lbs (you forgot already?)... and he's lost 10 in less than a
    month

    -Mike
     
  7. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:04:30 +0100, Lou Holtman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Doug Taylor wrote:
    >> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer. This is
    >>>my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of my club.
    >>>
    >>>http://udac78.free.fr/
    >>>
    >>>18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >>>
    >>>You're welcome.

    >>
    >>
    >> What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    >> Euros, n'est ce pas?

    >
    >
    >I just build a bike for a friend: 7.5 kg, 2400 euro's.


    You need a light frame, a Record or Dura Ace Group, and bling bling
    wheels for such a light build.

    A Look 555 frame retails for at least 2000 Euros. A Litespeed
    Ghisallo frame retails for at least $3200, or 2600 Euros.

    So what goes on the rest of the bike?
     
  8. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Mike Reed" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Surprised?.
    >
    > He "recently purchased" (see OP)


    Why should everyone `see OP'? How about you quote the
    article yourself?

    [...]

    --
    Michael Press
     
  9. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > > The power of marketing is amazing.

    >
    > Yes, it is. And some are more easily influenced than others. Of course,
    > if you're a newbie like the guy you're talking about, you're more
    > likely to buy into the drivel coming from the gang at the LBS and the
    > "buy! buy! buy!" chant coming from Buycycling magazine.


    Yep. It's the same as with every other hobby I'm into.

    Astronomy is crazy with tech, when the best telescopes for me just have
    huge mirrors, and some simple way to point the things where I want. You
    can get a $4K telescope with a usable 10" mirror controlled by a
    computer, or a $4K telescope controlled by hand with a 17" mirror. I'm
    looking for photons, not crap to burn up batteries.

    Woodworking is a joke with all the overdone crap out there. Everyone is
    led to believe they need a Powermatic table saw to build their kids'
    bunk bed, when any locally purchased 1970's used Craftsman for $100
    will do the job just as well. Even $500 jointers are pushed too hard,
    when I get by with a $70 jointer handplane and my power thickness
    planer. And don't get me started on all those overpriced yellow power
    tools.

    -Mike
    -Mike
     
  10. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de
    news:[email protected],
    Mike Reed <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > Sandy wrote:
    >> Anyway, it's not realisitc to buy things when at or over the limit.

    >
    > That gets back to my point. Can you point me to a road racing bike
    > available for sale in the US with Ultegra level components that comes
    > with wheels built for a 220 lb man?


    I don't live in the land of Big Men stores. Sorry.

    > Note that this doesn't mean it's for an out of shape man. A local
    > hero, Robbie Robinette, probably runs 215 or 220, and he's the
    > National Masters Road Champion:
    > http://www.teamhotelsanjose.com/ths...=/thsjcorp/Portals/0/Bio_Robbie_Robinette.jpg
    > http://www.teamhotelsanjose.com/ths...341&tabid=1&img=/thsjdnn/Portals/0/robbie.jpg
    >
    > My brother-in-law, however, is no national champ :) Still, the racing
    > bikes available today are underbuilt. Period.


    Not for their intended purchasers, I think. Pardon the stereotyping, but
    it's like women who (in olden times, I suspect) would buy shoes small, to
    feel that size, regardless of the lack of fit. If the bike fit your brother
    in law, then he should have opted for appropriate components. Or looked at
    others.

    >> Given the unlikely prospect that the guy will drop 60 pounds in
    >> short order, that's correct.

    >
    > It's 20 lbs (you forgot already?)... and he's lost 10 in less than a
    > month


    Target user, not his target weight.
     
  11. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Doug Taylor <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:04:30 +0100, Lou Holtman
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer.
    >>>> This is my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of
    >>>> my club.
    >>>>
    >>>> http://udac78.free.fr/
    >>>>
    >>>> 18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >>>>
    >>>> You're welcome.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    >>> Euros, n'est ce pas?

    >>
    >>
    >> I just build a bike for a friend: 7.5 kg, 2400 euro's.

    >
    > You need a light frame, a Record or Dura Ace Group, and bling bling
    > wheels for such a light build.
    >
    > A Look 555 frame retails for at least 2000 Euros. A Litespeed
    > Ghisallo frame retails for at least $3200, or 2600 Euros.
    >
    > So what goes on the rest of the bike?


    Just today, I was getting bar tape at the store I mentioned, and saw a 900
    euro carbon frame and fork with proposed components totaling 2109 euros.
    Weight of 7.8kg.
    Here, where lots of LOOK bikes are sold, they go for much less, in real
    life.
     
  12. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

  13. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    Doug Taylor wrote:
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:04:30 +0100, Lou Holtman
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer. This is
    >>>>my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of my club.
    >>>>
    >>>>http://udac78.free.fr/
    >>>>
    >>>>18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >>>>
    >>>>You're welcome.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    >>>Euros, n'est ce pas?

    >>
    >>
    >>I just build a bike for a friend: 7.5 kg, 2400 euro's.

    >
    >
    > You need a light frame, a Record or Dura Ace Group, and bling bling
    > wheels for such a light build.
    >
    > A Look 555 frame retails for at least 2000 Euros. A Litespeed
    > Ghisallo frame retails for at least $3200, or 2600 Euros.
    >
    > So what goes on the rest of the bike?



    It's a German CanyonF10 frame. Weights less than 1 kg and cost him 1000
    euro. He got a 300 euro discount because he has a race licence. Yes DA
    grouppo, but if you shop around you can get very good bargains at the
    German mailorder companies. If you have 2500 euro to spend you can get a
    7.5 kg bike easy here. You don't need a 2600 euro Ghisallo frame for that.
    Well what the heck, here is a picture of the bike:
    http://home.planet.nl/~holtm072/plaatjes/CanyonF10.jpg

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu
     
  14. Sandy wrote:
    > Dans le message de
    > news:[email protected],
    > Mike Reed <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > > Surprised?.
    > >
    > > 40 lbs over the limit? Where do you get a 180lb weight limit for AC
    > > S350? It's 200 lbs, and we knew that before he bought the bike. He's
    > > only 10% over the limit.
    > > http://www.amclassic.com/Wheels_Road.html

    >
    > I am surprised. These same (I really AM presuming) wheels are sold in
    > Europe with a notice of an 80kg limit.



    That's American Classic's "classic American" answer to the problem: too
    many Americans over 180lbs, thus limiting the market? Simple, raise the
    weight limit, increase sales and sweat the consequences later.

    OTOH, there are far more Europeans under 180lbs, so the weight limit
    can be more conservative, lowering the failure rate without losing as
    many sales.





    Anyway, it's not realisitc to buy
    > things when at or over the limit. And, 10% over this limit is still _over_
    > the limit, right ?
    >
    > > My beef isn't with the wheels, it's with the people who spec bikes for
    > > weight rather than quality. A stronger set of wheels could be spec'd
    > > for le$$.

    >
    > Given the unlikely prospect that the guy will drop 60 pounds in short order,
    > that's correct.
    > --
    > Bonne route !
    >
    > Sandy
    > Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
     
  15. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Mike Reed" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > > > The power of marketing is amazing.

    > >
    > > Yes, it is. And some are more easily influenced than others. Of course,
    > > if you're a newbie like the guy you're talking about, you're more
    > > likely to buy into the drivel coming from the gang at the LBS and the
    > > "buy! buy! buy!" chant coming from Buycycling magazine.

    >
    > Yep. It's the same as with every other hobby I'm into.
    >
    > Astronomy is crazy with tech, when the best telescopes for me just have
    > huge mirrors, and some simple way to point the things where I want. You
    > can get a $4K telescope with a usable 10" mirror controlled by a
    > computer, or a $4K telescope controlled by hand with a 17" mirror. I'm
    > looking for photons, not crap to burn up batteries.
    >
    > Woodworking is a joke with all the overdone crap out there. Everyone is
    > led to believe they need a Powermatic table saw to build their kids'
    > bunk bed, when any locally purchased 1970's used Craftsman for $100
    > will do the job just as well. Even $500 jointers are pushed too hard,
    > when I get by with a $70 jointer handplane and my power thickness
    > planer. And don't get me started on all those overpriced yellow power
    > tools.


    Do not stop now. Go for the gold!

    --
    Michael Press
     
  16. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:02:45 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    >Doug Taylor <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    >> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:04:30 +0100, Lou Holtman
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>>> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:39:22 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> Take a look at the topic "Nos montages" and figure out the answer.
    >>>>> This is my local shop, bikes (some of them) belong to members of
    >>>>> my club.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://udac78.free.fr/
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 18 pounds = 8.1416kg
    >>>>>
    >>>>> You're welcome.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> What is the retail price on the 7+/- kg bikes? Around 4 Thousand
    >>>> Euros, n'est ce pas?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I just build a bike for a friend: 7.5 kg, 2400 euro's.

    >>
    >> You need a light frame, a Record or Dura Ace Group, and bling bling
    >> wheels for such a light build.
    >>
    >> A Look 555 frame retails for at least 2000 Euros. A Litespeed
    >> Ghisallo frame retails for at least $3200, or 2600 Euros.
    >>
    >> So what goes on the rest of the bike?

    >
    >Just today, I was getting bar tape at the store I mentioned, and saw a 900
    >euro carbon frame and fork with proposed components totaling 2109 euros.
    >Weight of 7.8kg.
    >Here, where lots of LOOK bikes are sold, they go for much less, in real
    >life.


    My 19 year old son will be in Paris in May, doing a solo bike tour to
    Madrid. For the money your shop is talking about, we won't even
    bother shipping his bike. Give me a quote privately for a decent
    steel touring bike with Chorus or Ultegra triple, and I'll buy that
    and a Look 585 frame for myself. I'm serious.

    Il ne parle le francais, mais l'espanol. C'est bon?
     
  17. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Skippy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    > [snipped]
    > >
    > > It is but the bicycle industry, with Trek, Specilized and Giant+others
    > > at the lead, wonder why it's shrinking. Drivel at it's highest, and
    > > it's going to get smaller before the 'big boys' realize that they are
    > > the problem.
    > >

    >
    > Specialized, Trek and Giant, don't publish weights for bikes in the shiny
    > catalogues these days. Weight has always been the single metric that people
    > use (incorrectly) to judge a bike.
    >
    > Ultimately, no bike company is going to stay in business if they don't claim
    > their products are light. We, the consumers, are partly to blame for
    > marketing departments making weight a big issue, instead of ride quality, or
    > performance, or reliability, durability, or colour, or squirrel-resistance,
    > or whatever.
    >
    > I know that the three manufacturers above do dish out their fair share of
    > drivel, but they're not alone. I don't see how marketing drivel makes the
    > market shrink, unless we're dumb enough to believe it. We're not forced to
    > buy bikes, unless they're really nice and shiny!...


    It was explained. Marketing that promises what is not
    delivered makes people turn away from the industry. They
    pay good money for a bicycle that they are told will do
    wonderful things. Then they find out they actually have to
    pedal the thing, and maintain it. And those wheels go out
    of true. Hang it in the garage to remind yourself not to
    do it again.

    --
    Michael Press
     
  18. Skippy

    Skippy Guest

    "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article
    > <[email protected]>,
    > "Skippy" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> [snipped]
    >> >
    >> > It is but the bicycle industry, with Trek, Specilized and Giant+others
    >> > at the lead, wonder why it's shrinking. Drivel at it's highest, and
    >> > it's going to get smaller before the 'big boys' realize that they are
    >> > the problem.
    >> >

    >>
    >> Specialized, Trek and Giant, don't publish weights for bikes in the shiny
    >> catalogues these days. Weight has always been the single metric that
    >> people
    >> use (incorrectly) to judge a bike.
    >>
    >> Ultimately, no bike company is going to stay in business if they don't
    >> claim
    >> their products are light. We, the consumers, are partly to blame for
    >> marketing departments making weight a big issue, instead of ride quality,
    >> or
    >> performance, or reliability, durability, or colour, or
    >> squirrel-resistance,
    >> or whatever.
    >>
    >> I know that the three manufacturers above do dish out their fair share of
    >> drivel, but they're not alone. I don't see how marketing drivel makes
    >> the
    >> market shrink, unless we're dumb enough to believe it. We're not forced
    >> to
    >> buy bikes, unless they're really nice and shiny!...

    >
    > It was explained. Marketing that promises what is not
    > delivered makes people turn away from the industry. They
    > pay good money for a bicycle that they are told will do
    > wonderful things. Then they find out they actually have to
    > pedal the thing, and maintain it. And those wheels go out
    > of true. Hang it in the garage to remind yourself not to
    > do it again.
    >
    > --
    > Michael Press


    So we're dumb enough to believe it...

    Skippy
    E&OE
     
  19. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > That's American Classic's "classic American" answer to the problem: too
    > many Americans over 180lbs, thus limiting the market? Simple, raise the
    > weight limit, increase sales and sweat the consequences later.


    That's a good point.

    Remember the old sensible Bridgestone ads? (see Sheldon's site) I
    remember Bridgestone's claim that the RB-1 had more Cat 1/2 wins than
    any frame in the US. I raced and trained an RB-1 for 10 years. I even
    won a hilly race in Colorado on it against many newer and lighter
    machines.

    Wouldn't it be nice if a major manufacturer went sensible on us, and
    started marketing sensible race bikes? I know you can build one easily
    enough, but it would be cool to pick through, say, a Giant catalog and
    pick an all-around Ultegra-level bike to get a new addict through his
    first 3-5 seasons of road racing and training. Good for 7500-10000
    miles/year, and won't hold you back. Maybe for $1500.

    Zipp makes me happy with their Clydesdale wheels. They're honest, and
    offering a product to account for reality. I still wouldn't imagine
    they'll last forever given the low spoke counts, but it's a move in the
    right direction. They're probably fine for years of racing as long as a
    different wheel is used for training.

    I guess the market is the way it is because that's the way American
    buyers are. Durable goods are a thing of the past.

    -Mike
     
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