Bike Weight redux

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Doug Taylor, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest



  2. On 22 Mar 2006 19:25:01 -0800, "Mike Reed" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    >> The race bikes being marketed are sensible -- for racing. The
    >> Bridgestone RB-1 was a great bike, but is overbuilt if racing is the
    >> point. I'd love to own one for general riding, dirt roads, etc.
    >> I've got a steel LeMond that is similar, though without quite as much
    >> tire clearance.

    >
    >My point was for the average 19 year-old starting off, who can afford
    >only one bike, but will be racing a lot. The RB-1 was not overbuilt for
    >this purpose. It was perfect.
    >
    >> Current Giants, Treks, Specialized are all great racing bikes. They
    >> will last for several years of hard racing use.

    >
    >Not by our current 40-45 national champion, 220 lb. Robbie Robinette.
    >Big, fast racers exist.


    This guys is breaking bikes or wheels?
    >
    >> Those bikes exist today, stock.

    >
    >Linky? Show me something for the 185-220 lbs racer crowd.


    www.rideblue.com

    JT


    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************
     
  3. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    > On 22 Mar 2006 19:25:01 -0800, "Mike Reed" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    > >> The race bikes being marketed are sensible -- for racing. The
    > >> Bridgestone RB-1 was a great bike, but is overbuilt if racing is the
    > >> point. I'd love to own one for general riding, dirt roads, etc.
    > >> I've got a steel LeMond that is similar, though without quite as much
    > >> tire clearance.

    > >
    > >My point was for the average 19 year-old starting off, who can afford
    > >only one bike, but will be racing a lot. The RB-1 was not overbuilt for
    > >this purpose. It was perfect.
    > >
    > >> Current Giants, Treks, Specialized are all great racing bikes. They
    > >> will last for several years of hard racing use.

    > >
    > >Not by our current 40-45 national champion, 220 lb. Robbie Robinette.
    > >Big, fast racers exist.

    >
    > This guys is breaking bikes or wheels?


    I have no idea. I don't think he's budget challenged. My point is that
    big, fast racers are out there. They can't be training and racing on AC
    Sprint 350s for 5 years.

    > >
    > >> Those bikes exist today, stock.

    > >
    > >Linky? Show me something for the 185-220 lbs racer crowd.

    >
    > www.rideblue.com


    Cool site, nice looking bikes. For $1500? I didn't see any prices. Also
    not available in the US, according to their dealer list.

    Will a 28h rear with a 28mm profile wheel hold up for a larger racer?
    (Eason Circuits on the Blue bikes). For that 3-5 year timeframe?

    A slightly heavier wheelset, nearly equal aerodynamically, can be built
    for $150 $200 less, that will be much stronger. I think a case can be
    made to customers that this kind of thinking is a more sensible
    approach, and would increase reliability across the board.

    -Mike
     
  4. On 22 Mar 2006 21:06:04 -0800, "Mike Reed" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >> www.rideblue.com

    >
    >Cool site, nice looking bikes. For $1500? I didn't see any prices. Also
    >not available in the US, according to their dealer list.
    >
    >Will a 28h rear with a 28mm profile wheel hold up for a larger racer?
    >(Eason Circuits on the Blue bikes). For that 3-5 year timeframe?
    >
    >A slightly heavier wheelset, nearly equal aerodynamically, can be built
    >for $150 $200 less, that will be much stronger. I think a case can be
    >made to customers that this kind of thinking is a more sensible
    >approach, and would increase reliability across the board.



    I have a 190 pound teammate who said his Blue was really really cheap
    and loves it.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************
     
  5. Mike Reed wrote:

    <snipped>
    > >
    > > www.rideblue.com

    >
    > Cool site, nice looking bikes. For $1500? I didn't see any prices. Also
    > not available in the US, according to their dealer list.
    >


    They seem to have a few, very few, dealers (e.g., just one in all of
    New England and just one in NY). Where did you look?


    > Will a 28h rear with a 28mm profile wheel hold up for a larger racer?
    > (Eason Circuits on the Blue bikes). For that 3-5 year timeframe?
    >
    > A slightly heavier wheelset, nearly equal aerodynamically, can be built
    > for $150 $200 less, that will be much stronger. I think a case can be
    > made to customers that this kind of thinking is a more sensible
    > approach, and would increase reliability across the board.
    >
    >


    One can always sell off the stock wheelset and buy something
    functional. The integrated headset would be a bigger concern, IMO.
     
  6. John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
    > On 22 Mar 2006 06:17:12 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >Ozark Bicycle wrote:

    >
    > >> Thanks for posting this info. A little counterpoint to all the
    > >> mumbo-jumbo, black magic, hype, marketing drivel, and BS that currently
    > >> dominates the bicycle market is most welcome.

    > >
    > >It is but the bicycle industry, with Trek, Specilized and Giant+others
    > >at the lead, wonder why it's shrinking. Drivel at it's highest, and
    > >it's going to get smaller before the 'big boys' realize that they are
    > >the problem.

    >
    > Are you saying that over-hyped marketing by bike companies is the
    > *cause* of decline or lack of growth in cycling?
    >
    > JT


    Certainly part of it. We get people in the shop all the time that
    describe themselves and 'not a racer', they just want a bike. We can do
    that but a trip into a 'mass marketer', bigger, outta boxes bike shop
    is all about carbon, flash, low spoke count, etc and often they leave
    confused and uninformed.

    The bike biz is about selling to those who already own a bike, not
    those that don't. i've always said that OEM bikes need to be simple,
    reliable, and cheaper. NO need for front suspension, disc brakes,
    whizbangery on a bicycle ridden every other nice day weekend. When a
    $500 bike becomes full suspension and disc braked, it become poorly
    made, and unreliable, much like the crap seen in walmart. Add poor
    assembly and you get an unsatisfied rider, who, after many trips to the
    bike shop cuz the thing doesn't work or is uncomfortable, hangs it in
    the garage and takes up tennis.

    I saw that Schwinn or somebody has a mass marketed road bike for $600
    or something and everybody here howled and said what a piece of junk it
    was. If it were to be assembled well and serviced after the sale, it
    would have been a great bike.
    >
    > ****************************
    > Remove "remove" to reply
    > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    > ****************************
     
  7. [email protected] wrote:
    > hmmmm? on a 50 mile ride 4 pounds plus shortens your ride flat out
    > distance by 5 miles?


    hmmmm, after 65 posts and most miss the pojnt of the OP. Weight and the
    bicycle is a minor, minor part of the cycling equation. 19 or 16, those
    3 pounds mean little. If you wish to have the lightest bicycle to lift
    onto your car rack, fine and dandy, we sell them all the time but don't
    expect a lighter bicycle to automatically make a significant difference
    in cycling performance, it just doesn't.

    But lighter sells, in spite of sometimes lack of reliability and poor
    ride characteristics. I'm sure that same can be said about skis, tennis
    rackets, golf clubs, etc.
     
  8. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:33:46 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >> Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>>The only real rest is to weigh the whole bike on a scale. You are
    >>>delusional if you really believe that bike weighs anything less than
    >>>18 lbs. NFW you can buy or build a bike that weighs 15 or 16 lbs for
    >>>less than $4 k, more like $5 k. If you think so, prove it. I'll
    >>>accept a photo of the bike on your scale...

    >
    >Ron Ruff wrote:
    >> I'll bet you $1,000 that the bike weighs less than 18 lbs in a 55-56cm
    >> size.
    >> I'll also bet you $1,000 that I can put together a bike with new
    >> components that weighs less than 16 lbs for <$3,000. You game?

    >
    >You are right. 16lb takes selection but not more than $3K.
    >15 pounds is a whole 'nother thing


    C'mon, you two. Stop holding out on us.

    Spec out these magic 16 lb bikes for $3k or less.

    We know for starters that the bike will require a Campy Record
    (carbon) or Dura Ace Group, so we have at LEAST $1200 (e-bay price for
    Dura Ace) on the table to start, including crankset, bottom bracket,
    brake/shift levers, cables & housing, brake calipers, front
    derailleur,rear derailleur, cassette, and chain (the hubs to be
    included on wheelset to be purchased separately).

    So we need frame, fork, headset, wheelset, tires, tubes, bar, stem,
    post, saddle, pedals, bottle cages, tape, (and computer?) to total
    $1800.

    Even at euro prices, the frame and fork will eat that up, or the
    lion's share.

    Inquiring minds want to know how it can be done...
     
  9. D'ohBoy

    D'ohBoy Guest

    > I just looked at a famous house's Chorus Ten and DA Ten
    > prices . To quote a famous bike shop owner, YGBSM!!
    >
    >
    > --
    > Andrew Muzi
    > www.yellowjersey.org
    > Open every day since 1 April, 1971


    Yah, but, despite my appreciation for Campy and the relatively equal
    start-up costs between them and Shimano, consumables, i.e., chains, and
    especially cassettes (yikes!) are 1.5 to 4 times as expensive as
    Shimano-compatible bits.

    Had to replace my 13-26 (10v) and the cheapest I could find was $115.
    Shimano 9 compatible cassettes may be had for under $30.

    However, Shimano 10 Dura Ace is outrageously priced - $140 for a FRONT
    hub? Ya gotta be kidding me!

    D'ohBoy
     
  10. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On 23 Mar 2006 05:50:07 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Are you saying that over-hyped marketing by bike companies is the
    >> *cause* of decline or lack of growth in cycling?


    >
    >Certainly part of it. We get people in the shop all the time that
    >describe themselves and 'not a racer', they just want a bike. We can do
    >that but a trip into a 'mass marketer', bigger, outta boxes bike shop
    >is all about carbon, flash, low spoke count, etc and often they leave
    >confused and uninformed.
    >
    >The bike biz is about selling to those who already own a bike, not
    >those that don't. i've always said that OEM bikes need to be simple,
    >reliable, and cheaper. NO need for front suspension, disc brakes,
    >whizbangery on a bicycle ridden every other nice day weekend. When a
    >$500 bike becomes full suspension and disc braked, it become poorly
    >made, and unreliable, much like the crap seen in walmart. Add poor
    >assembly and you get an unsatisfied rider, who, after many trips to the
    >bike shop cuz the thing doesn't work or is uncomfortable, hangs it in
    >the garage and takes up tennis.
    >
    >I saw that Schwinn or somebody has a mass marketed road bike for $600
    >or something and everybody here howled and said what a piece of junk it
    >was. If it were to be assembled well and serviced after the sale, it
    >would have been a great bike.


    Well said!
     
  11. Quoting alans <[email protected]>:
    >An apparently sarcastic person wrote:
    >>And where would that be? Space?

    >Uh, gee, which uses more energy: walking up a hill carrying a weight,
    >or walking up the hill while lifting the weight up and down 90 times a
    >minute? In which case was the weight moved over more distance?


    That depends if the weight is being lifted by something that cannot
    efficiently recover the energy, such as human muscles, or is (say) part of
    a rotating wheel where the smaller up-and-down movements do not matter one
    jot.

    The person you are replying to may be sarcastic but they are also right.
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
    Today is Second Brieday, March.
     
  12. Paul Hobson

    Paul Hobson Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:
    > "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I'll also bet you $1,000 that I can put together a bike with new
    >>components that weighs less than 16 lbs for <$3,000. You game?

    >
    >
    > Heck, I built one a lot lighter than that for not much more than a
    > third that much.
    >
    > http://www.habcycles.com/fixie.jpg
    >
    > ;-) (probably should be a bit more specific...)
    >


    Nice! My old '87 (Columbus steel) Bianchi Premio fixie with Al seatpost
    and bars, Aerohead rims, eggbeaters, Specialized Alias saddle, and
    low-ish end Sugino cranks seems to have only *slightly* more heft than
    my uncle's plastic Trek decked out in Ultegra 10-speed gear. Price was
    about an order of magnitude less as well. I won't mention how badly I
    dropped him on the hills - oh wait...oops
    \\paul
     
  13. Doug Taylor wrote:
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:33:46 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >> Doug Taylor wrote:
    > >>>The only real rest is to weigh the whole bike on a scale. You are
    > >>>delusional if you really believe that bike weighs anything less than
    > >>>18 lbs. NFW you can buy or build a bike that weighs 15 or 16 lbs for
    > >>>less than $4 k, more like $5 k. If you think so, prove it. I'll
    > >>>accept a photo of the bike on your scale...

    > >
    > >Ron Ruff wrote:
    > >> I'll bet you $1,000 that the bike weighs less than 18 lbs in a 55-56cm
    > >> size.
    > >> I'll also bet you $1,000 that I can put together a bike with new
    > >> components that weighs less than 16 lbs for <$3,000. You game?

    > >
    > >You are right. 16lb takes selection but not more than $3K.
    > >15 pounds is a whole 'nother thing

    >
    > C'mon, you two. Stop holding out on us.
    >
    > Spec out these magic 16 lb bikes for $3k or less.


    Blue frame and carbon fork and Chorus...16 pounds and $3000 easy.

    Waterford R-14 also, with Chorus, smidge above $3000.
    >
    > We know for starters that the bike will require a Campy Record
    > (carbon) or Dura Ace Group, so we have at LEAST $1200 (e-bay price for
    > Dura Ace) on the table to start, including crankset, bottom bracket,
    > brake/shift levers, cables & housing, brake calipers, front
    > derailleur,rear derailleur, cassette, and chain (the hubs to be
    > included on wheelset to be purchased separately).
    >
    > So we need frame, fork, headset, wheelset, tires, tubes, bar, stem,
    > post, saddle, pedals, bottle cages, tape, (and computer?) to total
    > $1800.
    >
    > Even at euro prices, the frame and fork will eat that up, or the
    > lion's share.
    >
    > Inquiring minds want to know how it can be done...
     
  14. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Doug Taylor <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:33:46 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>> Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>>> The only real rest is to weigh the whole bike on a scale. You are
    >>>> delusional if you really believe that bike weighs anything less
    >>>> than 18 lbs. NFW you can buy or build a bike that weighs 15 or 16
    >>>> lbs for less than $4 k, more like $5 k. If you think so, prove
    >>>> it. I'll accept a photo of the bike on your scale...

    >>
    >> Ron Ruff wrote:
    >>> I'll bet you $1,000 that the bike weighs less than 18 lbs in a
    >>> 55-56cm size.
    >>> I'll also bet you $1,000 that I can put together a bike with new
    >>> components that weighs less than 16 lbs for <$3,000. You game?

    >>
    >> You are right. 16lb takes selection but not more than $3K.
    >> 15 pounds is a whole 'nother thing

    >
    > C'mon, you two. Stop holding out on us.
    >
    > Spec out these magic 16 lb bikes for $3k or less.
    >
    > We know for starters that the bike will require a Campy Record
    > (carbon) or Dura Ace Group,


    There's the first error - go for Chorus (even Centaur) or Ultegra. lots of
    money saved.
    --
    Bonne route !

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
     
  15. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > Mike Reed wrote:
    >
    > <snipped>
    > > >
    > > > www.rideblue.com

    > >
    > > Cool site, nice looking bikes. For $1500? I didn't see any prices. Also
    > > not available in the US, according to their dealer list.
    > >

    >
    > They seem to have a few, very few, dealers (e.g., just one in all of
    > New England and just one in NY). Where did you look?


    LMAO, I didn't see the US state drop-down at the top of their dealer
    page. D'oh!

    > One can always sell off the stock wheelset and buy something
    > functional.


    Yeah, I've tried talking three spanking new cyclists into doing this
    right when they purchased their bikes, but they each have too tough of
    a time letting go of the light weight. Plus the extra wait for new
    wheels and the sale of the old is unattractive when you just got a new
    toy.

    It would really help if the shops would suggest these parts swaps.
     
  16. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On 23 Mar 2006 06:51:42 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >Blue frame and carbon fork and Chorus...16 pounds and $3000 easy.


    My frame is IRD Scandium Elite, about the same thing as the Blue.

    My build cost $3000 with all new parts, bought less than retail on
    e-bay - Dura-ace drive train, FSA Mega Exo compact carbon, AC Sprint
    350's, etc - and it's 17 lb on my scale.

    So either:

    1) my scale sucks;
    2) you're exaggerating; or
    3) I'm an idiot;

    Screw all of you in advance who KNOW it's #3 :)
     
  17. D'ohBoy wrote:
    > > I just looked at a famous house's Chorus Ten and DA Ten
    > > prices . To quote a famous bike shop owner, YGBSM!!
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Andrew Muzi
    > > www.yellowjersey.org
    > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    >
    > Yah, but, despite my appreciation for Campy and the relatively equal
    > start-up costs between them and Shimano, consumables, i.e., chains, and
    > especially cassettes (yikes!) are 1.5 to 4 times as expensive as
    > Shimano-compatible bits.


    Chains are a commodity of sorts. Any 9 speed chain will work with
    Campagnolo or Shimano components. So there is no price difference at
    all. I bought Nashbar brand KMC 9 speed chains for $6.50 each and will
    use them on my Campagnolo bikes.

    Cassettes are more expensive for Campagnolo. But you exaggerate
    considerably with your 4 times quote. Compare Record and Dura Ace 10
    speed with equal amounts steel and titanium cogs and the price is about
    10% higher for Campagnolo. Performance lists the Record 10 speed 12-25
    and 11-23 cassette for $190. Performance lists the Dura Ace 10 speed
    12-25 for $181 and the 11-23 for $162. Not much difference. Excel
    lists the Centaur 10 speed cassettes for $110 and the Ultegra 10 speed
    cassettes for $73. A difference of about 1.5.

    If you order several cassettes from England to save on shipping costs
    you can get Campagnolo Veloce 10 speed cassettes for $60 each and 9
    speed cassettes for $30 each. Add a few dollars for shipping on seveal
    cassettes and you are the same price as sale prices for Shimano in the
    US. I have enough bikes and ride enough miles to make ordering 10
    cassettes practical. Or team up with other bike riders to place a
    large order.

    >
    > Had to replace my 13-26 (10v) and the cheapest I could find was $115.
    > Shimano 9 compatible cassettes may be had for under $30.


    Why are you comparing a 10 speed Campagnolo cassette with a 9 speed
    Shimano cassette? Why not compare the $115 10 speed Campagnolo
    cassette to a 10 speed Ultegra cassette for $73? Or better yet to a
    $60 Veloce 10 speed cassette from England for $60 plus shipping. If
    your $115 10 speed cassette was a Chorus level then that was a good
    price. If it was Centaur or Veloce, then you needed to be a better
    shopper. Sort of like the person who pays the car sticker price and
    says he paid too much. Yep, he did.


    >
    > However, Shimano 10 Dura Ace is outrageously priced - $140 for a FRONT
    > hub? Ya gotta be kidding me!
    >
    > D'ohBoy
     
  18. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Doug Taylor wrote:
    > > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:33:46 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > >> Doug Taylor wrote:
    > > >>>The only real rest is to weigh the whole bike on a scale. You are
    > > >>>delusional if you really believe that bike weighs anything less than
    > > >>>18 lbs. NFW you can buy or build a bike that weighs 15 or 16 lbs for
    > > >>>less than $4 k, more like $5 k. If you think so, prove it. I'll
    > > >>>accept a photo of the bike on your scale...
    > > >
    > > >Ron Ruff wrote:
    > > >> I'll bet you $1,000 that the bike weighs less than 18 lbs in a 55-56cm
    > > >> size.
    > > >> I'll also bet you $1,000 that I can put together a bike with new
    > > >> components that weighs less than 16 lbs for <$3,000. You game?
    > > >
    > > >You are right. 16lb takes selection but not more than $3K.
    > > >15 pounds is a whole 'nother thing

    > >
    > > C'mon, you two. Stop holding out on us.
    > >
    > > Spec out these magic 16 lb bikes for $3k or less.

    >
    > Blue frame and carbon fork and Chorus...16 pounds and $3000 easy.
    >


    I see that you are a Blue dealer, so I assume you find merit in the
    product(?).


    > Waterford R-14 also, with Chorus, smidge above $3000.
    > >
    > > We know for starters that the bike will require a Campy Record
    > > (carbon) or Dura Ace Group, so we have at LEAST $1200 (e-bay price for
    > > Dura Ace) on the table to start, including crankset, bottom bracket,
    > > brake/shift levers, cables & housing, brake calipers, front
    > > derailleur,rear derailleur, cassette, and chain (the hubs to be
    > > included on wheelset to be purchased separately).
    > >
    > > So we need frame, fork, headset, wheelset, tires, tubes, bar, stem,
    > > post, saddle, pedals, bottle cages, tape, (and computer?) to total
    > > $1800.
    > >
    > > Even at euro prices, the frame and fork will eat that up, or the
    > > lion's share.
    > >
    > > Inquiring minds want to know how it can be done...
     
  19. bfd

    bfd Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > D'ohBoy wrote:
    > Why are you comparing a 10 speed Campagnolo cassette with a 9 speed
    > Shimano cassette? Why not compare the $115 10 speed Campagnolo
    > cassette to a 10 speed Ultegra cassette for $73? Or better yet to a
    > $60 Veloce 10 speed cassette from England for $60 plus shipping. If
    > your $115 10 speed cassette was a Chorus level then that was a good
    > price. If it was Centaur or Veloce, then you needed to be a better
    > shopper. Sort of like the person who pays the car sticker price and
    > says he paid too much. Yep, he did.
    >
    >

    Agree, if you're going to do comparison, do it right! Unless you "got to
    have Record," Campagnolo Veloce 9 cassettes can be found, in the US, for
    anywhere from $50-65. This is comparable to Ultegra 9 cassettes which can be
    found from $30-40.

    Further, Miche now offers a 9 cassette for Campy hubs. Miche 9 cassette can
    be found through QBP for *under* $50; 10s at about $65:

    http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=list&Category=556&Brand=5
    72&type=T

    Since its sold through QBP, any LBS can get it too!
     
  20. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

Loading...
Loading...