Bike Weight redux

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Doug Taylor, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. Doug Taylor wrote:
    > On 23 Mar 2006 08:03:14 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I see that you are a Blue dealer, so I assume you find merit in the
    > >product(?).

    >
    > Then there is this product:
    >
    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7229016238&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
    >
    > How much of the price is for carbon, how much for the name, how much
    > for hype, how much for bling bling, and how much for function?


    First of all, my question to Peter was sincere. I have the feeling that
    he will not sell substandard stuff, so finding his shop listed as a
    dealer probably says something positive about the Blue stuff. I was
    asking to get a feel for his take on the stuff.

    As to the Colnago, IMO, alot of the money is probably in the name,
    which can also be listed as hype and bling-bling.
     


  2. bfd wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > D'ohBoy wrote:
    > > Why are you comparing a 10 speed Campagnolo cassette with a 9 speed
    > > Shimano cassette? Why not compare the $115 10 speed Campagnolo
    > > cassette to a 10 speed Ultegra cassette for $73? Or better yet to a
    > > $60 Veloce 10 speed cassette from England for $60 plus shipping. If
    > > your $115 10 speed cassette was a Chorus level then that was a good
    > > price. If it was Centaur or Veloce, then you needed to be a better
    > > shopper. Sort of like the person who pays the car sticker price and
    > > says he paid too much. Yep, he did.
    > >
    > >

    > Agree, if you're going to do comparison, do it right! Unless you "got to
    > have Record," Campagnolo Veloce 9 cassettes can be found, in the US, for
    > anywhere from $50-65. This is comparable to Ultegra 9 cassettes which can be
    > found from $30-40.
    >
    > Further, Miche now offers a 9 cassette for Campy hubs. Miche 9 cassette can
    > be found through QBP for *under* $50; 10s at about $65:


    Good to see they are available. Unfortunately, not in some of the
    sizes I want for Campagnolo hubs. No 13-23 9 speed Campagnolo. No
    12-23 10 speed Campagnolo model. They do list the 13-26 in 9 and 10
    for Campagnolo. I'll have to check my local shop to see if they show
    the missing cassette configurations. Maybe the Harris site just is not
    showing all that is available.


    >
    > http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=list&Category=556&Brand=5
    > 72&type=T
    >
    > Since its sold through QBP, any LBS can get it too!
     
  3. bfd

    bfd Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > bfd wrote:
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > D'ohBoy wrote:
    > > > Why are you comparing a 10 speed Campagnolo cassette with a 9 speed
    > > > Shimano cassette? Why not compare the $115 10 speed Campagnolo
    > > > cassette to a 10 speed Ultegra cassette for $73? Or better yet to a
    > > > $60 Veloce 10 speed cassette from England for $60 plus shipping. If
    > > > your $115 10 speed cassette was a Chorus level then that was a good
    > > > price. If it was Centaur or Veloce, then you needed to be a better
    > > > shopper. Sort of like the person who pays the car sticker price and
    > > > says he paid too much. Yep, he did.
    > > >
    > > >

    > > Agree, if you're going to do comparison, do it right! Unless you "got to
    > > have Record," Campagnolo Veloce 9 cassettes can be found, in the US, for
    > > anywhere from $50-65. This is comparable to Ultegra 9 cassettes which

    can be
    > > found from $30-40.
    > >
    > > Further, Miche now offers a 9 cassette for Campy hubs. Miche 9 cassette

    can
    > > be found through QBP for *under* $50; 10s at about $65:

    >
    > Good to see they are available. Unfortunately, not in some of the
    > sizes I want for Campagnolo hubs. No 13-23 9 speed Campagnolo. No
    > 12-23 10 speed Campagnolo model. They do list the 13-26 in 9 and 10
    > for Campagnolo. I'll have to check my local shop to see if they show
    > the missing cassette configurations. Maybe the Harris site just is not
    > showing all that is available.
    >
    >

    You're right. The QBP online catalog only list 12-23 and 13-26 for 9 speed
    and 10 speed. However, I believe Miche cassettes, like Veloce, are loose
    cogs, so maybe a 13-23 combo can be put together by a Sheldon or a willing
    LBS.
     
  4. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    ([email protected])
    >>I just looked at a famous house's Chorus Ten and DA Ten
    >>prices . To quote a famous bike shop owner, YGBSM!!


    D'ohBoy wrote:
    > Yah, but, despite my appreciation for Campy and the relatively equal
    > start-up costs between them and Shimano, consumables, i.e., chains, and
    > especially cassettes (yikes!) are 1.5 to 4 times as expensive as
    > Shimano-compatible bits.


    > Had to replace my 13-26 (10v) and the cheapest I could find was $115.
    > Shimano 9 compatible cassettes may be had for under $30.


    > However, Shimano 10 Dura Ace is outrageously priced - $140 for a FRONT
    > hub? Ya gotta be kidding me!


    Cassettes- Try the CrMO cassette. 10Sp $90, $63 for nines.
    DA front hubs for $140?
    Gee, Record's nicer at $97.
    I don't 'get' DA prices.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  5. SYJ

    SYJ Guest

    G.T. wrote:
    ---snip---
    > How many men are 110 lbs?
    >
    > Greg


    ---/snip---

    274,581.

    approximately.

    SYJ
     
  6. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    >>>>Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>>>>The only real rest is to weigh the whole bike on a scale. You are
    >>>>>delusional if you really believe that bike weighs anything less than
    >>>>>18 lbs. NFW you can buy or build a bike that weighs 15 or 16 lbs for
    >>>>>less than $4 k, more like $5 k. If you think so, prove it. I'll
    >>>>>accept a photo of the bike on your scale...


    >>>Ron Ruff wrote:
    >>>>I'll bet you $1,000 that the bike weighs less than 18 lbs in a 55-56cm
    >>>>size.
    >>>>I'll also bet you $1,000 that I can put together a bike with new
    >>>>components that weighs less than 16 lbs for <$3,000. You game?


    A Muzi <[email protected]>
    >>>You are right. 16lb takes selection but not more than $3K.
    >>>15 pounds is a whole 'nother thing


    > Doug Taylor wrote:
    >>Inquiring minds want to know how it can be done...


    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Blue frame and carbon fork and Chorus...16 pounds and $3000 easy.
    > Waterford R-14 also, with Chorus, smidge above $3000.


    With a Kestrel Talon [1],
    vintage tub rims [2],
    15-17g front[3],
    CHR drive train [4],
    plain sidepulls [5],
    light seat/bars [6], can do.

    Heavy DP brakes, triple cranks etc will push you over 16.

    1- or choose something at or under 3 lb
    2- really hard with clincher wheels
    3- some things are just obvious
    4- hard to sell 'junk' even if it is light. Quality drive
    train because we still have to _sell_ it.
    5- amazing how heavy modern calipers are. Boat anchors.
    6- some riders return for a heavier more comfy saddle later.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  7. bfd wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > bfd wrote:
    > > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]
    > > > > D'ohBoy wrote:
    > > > > Why are you comparing a 10 speed Campagnolo cassette with a 9 speed
    > > > > Shimano cassette? Why not compare the $115 10 speed Campagnolo
    > > > > cassette to a 10 speed Ultegra cassette for $73? Or better yet to a
    > > > > $60 Veloce 10 speed cassette from England for $60 plus shipping. If
    > > > > your $115 10 speed cassette was a Chorus level then that was a good
    > > > > price. If it was Centaur or Veloce, then you needed to be a better
    > > > > shopper. Sort of like the person who pays the car sticker price and
    > > > > says he paid too much. Yep, he did.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > Agree, if you're going to do comparison, do it right! Unless you "got to
    > > > have Record," Campagnolo Veloce 9 cassettes can be found, in the US, for
    > > > anywhere from $50-65. This is comparable to Ultegra 9 cassettes which

    > can be
    > > > found from $30-40.
    > > >
    > > > Further, Miche now offers a 9 cassette for Campy hubs. Miche 9 cassette

    > can
    > > > be found through QBP for *under* $50; 10s at about $65:

    > >
    > > Good to see they are available. Unfortunately, not in some of the
    > > sizes I want for Campagnolo hubs. No 13-23 9 speed Campagnolo. No
    > > 12-23 10 speed Campagnolo model. They do list the 13-26 in 9 and 10
    > > for Campagnolo. I'll have to check my local shop to see if they show
    > > the missing cassette configurations. Maybe the Harris site just is not
    > > showing all that is available.
    > >
    > >

    > You're right. The QBP online catalog only list 12-23 and 13-26 for 9 speed
    > and 10 speed. However, I believe Miche cassettes, like Veloce, are loose
    > cogs, so maybe a 13-23 combo can be put together by a Sheldon or a willing
    > LBS.


    http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=9740&category=534

    Here is a place in the US selling the Miche cassettes in both
    Campagnolo and Shimano splines. I thin it shows all the cassettes
    available. No 13-23 9 speed, the one I want, and no 12-23 10 speed,
    the one I want. Prices are cheaper than QBP, naturally. But no
    solution for me since they don't make the cassette configuration I
    want. I know you can mix and match, but if you have to buy two
    cassettes to do it, the savings is kind of gone.
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    -snip cassettes-
    [email protected] wrote:
    > Good to see they are available. Unfortunately, not in

    some of the
    > sizes I want for Campagnolo hubs. No 13-23 9 speed Campagnolo. No
    > 12-23 10 speed Campagnolo model. They do list the 13-26 in 9 and 10
    > for Campagnolo. I'll have to check my local shop to see if they show
    > the missing cassette configurations. Maybe the Harris site just is not
    > showing all that is available.


    WTF?? standard CrMo 12~23 and 13~23 x9 and 12~23 in ten.

    Pick up the 2006 Campagnolo book on the sales counter free
    at any LBS. All specs are in the back of the book neatly
    printed.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  9. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    -snip cassettes-
    > <[email protected]> wrote
    >>Good to see they are available. Unfortunately, not in some of the
    >>sizes I want for Campagnolo hubs. No 13-23 9 speed Campagnolo. No
    >>12-23 10 speed Campagnolo model. They do list the 13-26 in 9 and 10
    >>for Campagnolo. I'll have to check my local shop to see if they show
    >>the missing cassette configurations. Maybe the Harris site just is not
    >>showing all that is available.


    bfd wrote:
    > You're right. The QBP online catalog only list 12-23 and 13-26 for 9 speed
    > and 10 speed. However, I believe Miche cassettes, like Veloce, are loose
    > cogs, so maybe a 13-23 combo can be put together by a Sheldon or a willing
    > LBS.


    Uh, 13~23 x9 and 12~23 x10 are standard Campagnolo casettes.
    Look in the 2006 _Campagnolo_ book, guys. or call a _full
    service_ Campagnolo distributor. This isn't rocket science.
    Sheesh.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  10. Ron Ruff

    Ron Ruff Guest

    Doug Taylor wrote
    >
    > Spec out these magic 16 lb bikes for $3k or less.


    I posted an enquiry for owners of this bike on BifeForums, asking what
    it weighed:
    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp06_sl_pre.htm

    .... and this is what I got:
    "I weighed my 56cm MB LCSL right out of the box at the LBS. w/o cages
    or pedals it weighed dead even 16 lbs. Of course that was last year
    with the sprint 350's, now it comes with sturdier but heavier AC's."

    They have changed other parts as well and are now listing a slightly
    lower overall weight than last year. Like I said, I calculated a weight
    of 16lbs for this bike. Values from weightweenies where possible.

    Frame 1365
    Seat Clamp 25
    Fork 350
    Headset 65
    Wheels 1500 AC with strips
    Skewers 100 AC
    Tubes 140
    Tires 360 Vittoria Diamante Prolite 700x23c
    Cassette 220 Ultegra
    Seatpost 216 Ritchey WCS
    Seat 180 Moto SLR Ti
    Pedals
    Stem 120 Ritchey WCS 100
    Bars 236 Ritchey WCS
    Tape 50
    Cranks 500 FSA SLK
    Bottom Bracket 200 TruVativ Ultralight
    Front Deraillier 100 Ultegra
    Rear Deraillier 205 Ultegra
    Chain 320 Ultegra
    Shifters 486 Ultegra
    Brake Calipers 320 Cane Creek SCR5
    Cables and Housing 205

    Total weight = 7263 16.0 lbs. $1,300

    But hey, that's without pedals! I'll see if I can add pedals and still
    drop another half pound:

    Pedal Force QS2 frame, 55cm, 2.4lb, $680 shipped, $480 net, -273g
    KMC X10 chain, 260g, $25, - 60g
    Speedplay Zero Ti pedals, 163g, $240
    Thompson Masterpiece seatpost, 156g, $110, $80 net, -60g
    Dura Ace Cassette, 173g, $150, $100 net, -47g
    Dura Ace Shifters, 420g, $300, $120 net, -66g

    Total weight = 6920g = 15.2 lbs $2,345

    Nothing too fancy there, and it looks like I'm well under both
    targets... is that good enough?
     
  11. A Muzi wrote:
    > -snip cassettes-
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > Good to see they are available. Unfortunately, not in

    > some of the
    > > sizes I want for Campagnolo hubs. No 13-23 9 speed Campagnolo. No
    > > 12-23 10 speed Campagnolo model. They do list the 13-26 in 9 and 10
    > > for Campagnolo. I'll have to check my local shop to see if they show
    > > the missing cassette configurations. Maybe the Harris site just is not
    > > showing all that is available.

    >
    > WTF?? standard CrMo 12~23 and 13~23 x9 and 12~23 in ten.


    I'm well aware CAMPAGNOLO makes 13-23 9 speed cassettes and 12-23 10
    speed cassettes. But MICHE does not. bfd and I are talking about the
    lower priced MICHE Campagnolo hub splined cassettes as compared to the
    higher priced CAMPAGNOLO VELOCE cassettes. Sort of like using a much
    cheaper cost Nashbar or Performance or SRAM brand cassette instead of a
    more expensive Shimano brand cassette on a Shimano splined hub. And
    complaining that Nashbar, Performance, SRAM does not make the same
    cassette configuration as Shimano. MICHE seems to have skipped the
    cassette configurations I want for my Campagnolo splined hubs. But the
    site I listed in the other post does say they sell MICHE cogs
    separately so building my own may be cheap still.



    >
    > Pick up the 2006 Campagnolo book on the sales counter free
    > at any LBS. All specs are in the back of the book neatly
    > printed.
    >
    > --
    > Andrew Muzi
    > www.yellowjersey.org
    > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  12. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    [email protected] wrote:>
    > I'm well aware CAMPAGNOLO makes 13-23 9 speed cassettes and 12-23 10
    > speed cassettes. But MICHE does not. bfd and I are talking about the
    > lower priced MICHE Campagnolo hub splined cassettes as compared to the
    > higher priced CAMPAGNOLO VELOCE cassettes.


    I apologize for sloppy reading. Sorry.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  13. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On 23 Mar 2006 16:29:58 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Nothing too fancy there, and it looks like I'm well under both
    >targets... is that good enough?


    No, Ron, it isn't. I'm talking about empirical reality, not theory.
    The ONLY way to confirm the actual weight of YOUR bike is to weight on
    YOUR scale and verify it with YOUR eyes. I do NOT believe
    advertisements, I do NOT believe published weights, I do NOT believe
    hearsay testimonials, I take weight weenies with a grain of salt.

    Why? Because I have built more than a few road and mountain bikes,
    meticulously choosing each and every part, and have weighed the
    finished products in the comfort of my shop, and have found they NEVER
    conform to theory or marketing hype.

    I reiterate:

    1) to achieve the magic UCI 15 lb minimum, you MUST by definition pay
    at least $5k for frame, wheels, and parts;

    2) For up to16.5 lb, you are still talking carbon and Record or
    Dura-Ace, and are paying over $3k. That's my opinion and experience
    and I'm sticking to it.

    3) 17 lb is achievable for $3k, but you must buy parts on e-bay and
    you can't pay retail for anything. This is my current build starting
    with a IRD Scandium Elite frame/fork/post/stem combo @ approx $800,
    and Dura Ace, IRD, AC etc. everything else.

    I'm not trying to be pig headed here, I'm just trying to relate my
    personal experience, and to caution people about how much complete
    myth and b.s. there is out there about bike weight.

    To quote the all time great bicycle aphorism coined by Keith
    Bontrager: " lightweight, durable, inexpensive: pick TWO."

    That's reality, and there ain't nuthin' you can do to change it.

    End of rant.
     
  14. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Doug Taylor <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > On 23 Mar 2006 16:29:58 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Nothing too fancy there, and it looks like I'm well under both
    >> targets... is that good enough?

    >
    > No, Ron, it isn't. I'm talking about empirical reality, not theory.
    > The ONLY way to confirm the actual weight of YOUR bike is to weight on
    > YOUR scale and verify it with YOUR eyes. I do NOT believe
    > advertisements, I do NOT believe published weights, I do NOT believe
    > hearsay testimonials, I take weight weenies with a grain of salt.
    >
    > Why? Because I have built more than a few road and mountain bikes,
    > meticulously choosing each and every part, and have weighed the
    > finished products in the comfort of my shop, and have found they NEVER
    > conform to theory or marketing hype.
    >
    > I reiterate:
    >
    > 1) to achieve the magic UCI 15 lb minimum, you MUST by definition pay
    > at least $5k for frame, wheels, and parts;
    >
    > 2) For up to16.5 lb, you are still talking carbon and Record or
    > Dura-Ace, and are paying over $3k. That's my opinion and experience
    > and I'm sticking to it.
    >
    > 3) 17 lb is achievable for $3k, but you must buy parts on e-bay and
    > you can't pay retail for anything. This is my current build starting
    > with a IRD Scandium Elite frame/fork/post/stem combo @ approx $800,
    > and Dura Ace, IRD, AC etc. everything else.
    >
    > I'm not trying to be pig headed here, I'm just trying to relate my
    > personal experience, and to caution people about how much complete
    > myth and b.s. there is out there about bike weight.
    >
    > To quote the all time great bicycle aphorism coined by Keith
    > Bontrager: " lightweight, durable, inexpensive: pick TWO."
    >
    > That's reality, and there ain't nuthin' you can do to change it.
    >
    > End of rant.


    I think contributors have offered you enough examples, already. Have you
    not looked ? If there is a lesson to be learned, perhaps it's that you
    don't have to try hard to be pig-headed, perhaps that you need to
    recalibrate your weighing device, and perhaps also stop envying those who
    have the funds to pay to get what they want. Try chanting, if all else
    fails.
     
  15. Quoting Doug Taylor <[email protected]>:
    >1) to achieve the magic UCI 15 lb minimum, you MUST by definition pay
    >at least $5k for frame, wheels, and parts;


    That's an interesting definition of "definition" you have there.
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
    Today is Second Gouday, March.
     
  16. In article <[email protected]>, Doug Taylor
    ([email protected]) wrote:

    > 1) to achieve the magic UCI 15 lb minimum, you MUST by definition pay
    > at least $5k for frame, wheels, and parts;


    I'm interested in how much it cost my mate Rob to put together his 14 lb
    bike...

    ....but not interested enough to spending the rest of the afternoon
    window-shopping for Dura-Ace, Record and other shiny things.

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Dead journalists make excellent objets d'art.
     
  17. dvt

    dvt Guest

    A Muzi wrote:
    > CHR drive train [4],


    > 4- hard to sell 'junk' even if it is light. Quality drive train because
    > we still have to _sell_ it.


    Sorry for the dumb question... what's a "CHR drive train?"

    --
    Dave, who is quite happy with his >16 lb bike
    dvt at psu dot edu
     
  18. Doug Taylor

    Doug Taylor Guest

    On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:24:38 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:


    >I think contributors have offered you enough examples, already. Have you
    >not looked ? If there is a lesson to be learned, perhaps it's that you
    >don't have to try hard to be pig-headed, perhaps that you need to
    >recalibrate your weighing device, and perhaps also stop envying those who
    >have the funds to pay to get what they want. Try chanting, if all else
    >fails.


    Yeah, I'm jousting windmills and will ferme ma bouche :)

    Remember, though, that the point that the "other contributors" are
    making is that you (theoretically) DON'T have to have unlimited funds
    for an ultra light bike, so it's not a question of envy, merely
    incredulity.

    Soon it will be spring in the NE USA, and we can actually ride bikes
    and not hang out too much on usenet.
     
  19. getting back to the OP's thread on bike weight and such and for me who
    got into cycling 10 years ago, took a break, and getting back into it
    again, I can say I was caught up in the "gotta have the best, lightest,
    fancy shamancy components" but when you actually ride the damn thing, I
    can't tell any difference if this wheel weighs 100 grams lighter(while
    riding) than another wheel weighing more or if a $125 King headset
    would really improve my performance over my cheaper Dura Ace
    headset...for newbies, they make the mistake of buying the latest and
    best, having something go wrong and blaming it on the components, then
    hanging up the bke and taking up tennis (as the man from Boulder put
    it)...actually I learned this time around, regular components will work
    fine, and not to get suckered into the chic-chic crap like Carbon
    fiber/aluminum/titanium frames, flashy expensive Kysrium wheels(i
    almost did), or carbon components.....and if any of you here do use all
    the latest and high tech and pricey stuff, I dont recognize any of your
    names on the winners list in any of the noteworthy cycling races, so I
    guess all that $$$$ you spent was just for show and not for
    winning....sort of like the the people who buy pricey sports cars like
    Porsche 911 or whatever,, they may go really fast but they buy them not
    to race but to show off...but one thing I love about people buying all
    this expensive bike stuff is that a lot of them buy it around the Tour
    De France, at least when Lance was in it and winning, ride their bike
    for a few months, then hang it up and then sell it over the winter
    time(stripped or complete) so people like me can come in and buy it for
    cheap....gotta love free market economy
     
  20. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > getting back to the OP's thread on bike weight and such and for me who
    > got into cycling 10 years ago, took a break, and getting back into it
    > again, I can say I was caught up in the "gotta have the best, lightest,
    > fancy shamancy components" but when you actually ride the damn thing, I
    > can't tell any difference if this wheel weighs 100 grams lighter(while
    > riding) than another wheel weighing more or if a $125 King headset
    > would really improve my performance over my cheaper Dura Ace
    > headset...for newbies, they make the mistake of buying the latest and
    > best, having something go wrong and blaming it on the components, then
    > hanging up the bke and taking up tennis (as the man from Boulder put
    > it)...actually I learned this time around, regular components will work
    > fine, and not to get suckered into the chic-chic crap like Carbon
    > fiber/aluminum/titanium frames, flashy expensive Kysrium wheels(i
    > almost did), or carbon components.....and if any of you here do use all
    > the latest and high tech and pricey stuff, I dont recognize any of your
    > names on the winners list in any of the noteworthy cycling races, so I
    > guess all that $$$$ you spent was just for show and not for
    > winning....sort of like the the people who buy pricey sports cars like
    > Porsche 911 or whatever,, they may go really fast but they buy them not
    > to race but to show off...but one thing I love about people buying all
    > this expensive bike stuff is that a lot of them buy it around the Tour
    > De France, at least when Lance was in it and winning, ride their bike
    > for a few months, then hang it up and then sell it over the winter
    > time(stripped or complete) so people like me can come in and buy it for
    > cheap....gotta love free market economy
    >



    Why would you buy that fancy crappy stuff second hand from those showing
    off people? You said it was crap. Ooo...I get it, you can get that fancy
    crap stuff for much less money. So you wanted that stuff in the first
    place, but you could not effort it. I have no problem with that, but
    please do not criticize the people who can effort it. Did they ask you
    for money? Do they look down on you because you ride a much cheaper bike?

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu
     
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