M
Mike Vandeman
Guest
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin West <[email protected]>
Subject: Responce to bikers.
Please see attached. The following it the same
document but without formating.
See this page:
http://www.marinbike.org/Campaigns/ShareTheRoad/Motorists.htm
A response to this paper need to be sent. You have my
permission to use all or any part of this letter on
your site or in the response.
• In 30 years of driving I have yet to see a biker
stop at a stop sign or light if it was clear! This
includes the very busy Sir Francis Drake Boulevard.
How can they complain about drivers breaking laws?
• Many times I have been behind bikers that were
weaving from the shoulder to the double yellow line.
When they finally had a wide enough place to drive so
that I could pass without going over the double line
the biker again shot over to the yellow line, (just
like he was asking to be hit). Both times this
happened, different days, I was about to gun it, but
because I am a defensive driver I did not assume the
biker would do the right thing. Anyone else would
have hit him. A bike site said that only kids weave,
adults ride in a straight line!
• Many bikers do not watch where they are going. I
have been nearly hit while walking on a paved path, by
a biker who was looking at the ground in front of his
wheel. I had to jump away, he never saw me!
• Bikers have claimed that no one has been killed by
being hit by a bike. This is nonsense. It may not
happed a lot but it does happen. I can not find the
statistics on injuries and deaths to walkers every
year by bikes but I would like to see it.
Bikers show no signs of self preservation i.e.
defensive driving. They do not look for erratic
drivers and do keep to the right. In Marin, there
were two bikers were killed by drivers in the last few
years. One driver was sleepy from anti-histamines the
other was drunk. If the bikers were aware of their
surroundings they would have noticed the erratic
driving and got out of the way. (For that matter they
would not have been in the way in the first place!)
In the drunken case the woman biker that was hit was
at the lead of a large group, on a hill, she was the
only one hit, (there is a concrete shrine for her at
the collision spot). The driver allegedly crossed
over the yellow line hit the biker and missed the
rest. Hard to believe! Since the only witnesses are
bikers, we will never know what really happened. I
have no doubt what happened is that the biker that
was hit was “arrogantly” up head of everyone probably
weaving near the yellow line and of course not looking
for oncoming cars. She no doubt never saw what hit
her. What happened after these two cases were the
bikers raving that the drivers need to be made aware
of bikers. Hence the “Share the Road signs”, (one was
put in our property off the road without permission.)
Again both drivers were under the influence, no number
of “Share the road” signs would have made any
difference in these deaths. The bikers need to the
trained in defensive driving skills. At this time
they ride like they are invincible and when they get
hit blame it on bad drivers. There will always be bad
drivers! It is up to all of us to drive defensively
to keep alive! Bikers do not! There are bike trails
but most bikers do not use them, they would rather
play chicken with the cars! (There are plenty of
roads in West Marin that get little traffic.) The
fact that they bike on busy West Marin roads tells me
that they are looking for the danger and the adrenalin
rush that comes with it, (like the bungee jumpers,
steep mountain bikers, people that jump out of planes,
drive motorcycles too fast, etc.)
Bikers are claiming that they are banned from single
track trails only in Marin, more nonsense. Most
water district utilities ban bikes from trails. I
have not personally looked into it but talked to a
local advocate that did to check up on a bikers claim.
This person found NO water district in the SF Bay
Area, that allowed bikes on trails. As a matter of
fact some did not allow bikes on fire roads because of
the erosion going into their drinking water and road
maintenance expense. (I believe it was East Bay
Municipal District, i.e. Mount Diablo.
Try driving a car in West Marin on the weekend this it
what you will see.
• Bikers in groups biking side by side in twos and
threes, violation of the law.
• Bikers going over the speed limit down hills, Whites
Hill for example.
• Bikers do not yielding to cars that want to pass.
They never do! A car or strings of cars will follow
a biker for miles because it is not legal to cross
over the double line. (I could not find any vehicle
code that specifically says bikers can not block
traffic, i.e. required to pull over if it is not safe
for cars to pass. (I am sure I read a section along
time ago that stated that, must have been changed.)
In any case they have to follow the vehicle code.
There is as section that says in effect that “A driver
has to pull over if there are 5 or more cars following
it”. I have never seen a biker pull over for cars
and I have seen a dozen or more cars following a
biker(s) for miles passing many places to pull over.
Just a message to bikers, “You are in a car and after
followinga biker for miles, finally getting fed up
decide to pass. A car comes out of nowhere and you
have a choice between a head on with a car or hitting
a biker. What would you choose? The problem the
accident would be the fault of the driver, because he
crossedover the double yellow line! I would think
that the biker would do everything to stay alive like
pulling over for cars so the drivers do not get
frustrated and try to pass, unsafely. Silly me,
that’s not the way bikers think thought! I guess
they like leaving this world as martyrs.
• Bikers never stop at stop signs or stop lights if it
is clear.
• Bikers driving at night without lights or
reflectors, this is also in towns.
• Bikers wearing dark cloths, night and day, very
common.
• Bikers riding against traffic, see this a lot on Sir
Francis Drake Blvd going to work.
• Bikers riding in the road, when there is a bike
lane. In West Marin the bikers forced the county to
widen some of the roads for a “bike lane”. (Right of
the white line, but still paved.) Where I live,
Lagunitas, they would have had to take out dozens of
redwoods to make it wider; they had no problem with
this! It was stopped by the locals. Through the
state park the road was not changed since the state
park system does not have the money, not to mention it
would require removing a hundreds of redwoods! It is
amazing the damage and expense the bikers get away
with, just to satisfy a few people and their carnal
desires.
• Bikers on fire roads DO NOT SLOW down when passing
walkers. There are laws but they vary with the local
district. (Rarely bikers are sited; there are not
enough rangers to patrol all the land.) They go too
fast especially down hill with NO regard for hikers or
especially kids on bikes. It is very dangerous to
hike on fire roads with children because of the bikers
(that is why we do not anymore, it is a shame because
I hiked these beautiful areas as a kid and it is not
safe anymore because of bikers!)
What happens if you give a biker a little honk while
passing or to tell them you are behind them? The
chances are you will get yelling and a finger gesture
(at the least), or car banging at the next stop light,
not to mention things thrown at the car (someone told
me that a biker through an apple at their car after
they honked,. I have yet to see another reaction or
hear from someone on getting any other reaction. (An
elderly woman wrote a letter to the editor a number of
years ago and said that she gave a biker a little honk
while passing and at the next stop light the biker
banged on her car and yelled at her, she was
frightened.)
Again how can bikers say it is the car drivers that
are the problem?
What is this the say about drivers not giving bikers
the right of way? What right of way do they have?
They do not have the right of way to keep block the
road and keep cars from passing or to ride in the
middle of the road or ride double and triple. They do
not have the right of way to run stop signs and
lights. So what are they talking about? Biking is
good for environmental health Ha, Ha, Ha, bikers drive
to their biking area, (bikers put more miles on cars
than the rest of us! Look in West Marin and at all
the cars with bike racks! A very small number of the
bike miles are commuting to work and then only if it
suites them that day and the weather. This article is
full of nonsense it has to be responded to.
As usual they distort facts, here is CVC 21202 It
does not say that a biker can ride in the middle of
the road, as this article says! It says “As close as
practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the
roadway except under any of the following situations:”
21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a
roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of
traffic moving in the same direction at that time
shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand
curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the
following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or
vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection
or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions
(including, but not limited to, fixed or moving
objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals,
surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make
it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or
edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For
purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane"
is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a
vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is
authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a
highway, which highway carries traffic in one
direction only and has two or more marked traffic
lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of
that roadway as practicable.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm site
of CVC
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd11c1a4.htm
This is just the street bikers. The mountain bikers
are another problem and in the end will not win
because if they do get concessions, the damage to the
trails will be very apparent and despite what they say
they will eventually be “stopped”.
Both mountain and street bikers continually spout
false statistics, unscientific claims and
un-substantiated claims. They quote parts of laws out
of context and have their own interruptions of laws.
Their behavior and attitude says it all. The damage
to the trails is clear and the danger to hikers even
on fire roads is clear. (We stopped hiking on fire
roads year ago because of bikers, it was way too
dangerous for kids who can not jump out of the way as
fast as adults.)
A number of years ago I in a room with a guy that said
he was the head of some bike group. When another
person in the room asked him about the bikers riding
on trails illegally he responded “It is a stupid law
and we believe we do not have to obey stupid laws.”
Again their arrogance and defiance of the law is
showing and will be the end of them eventually. (I
believe this was the person caught making an illegal
trail in public land a few months ago!) My neighbor
had a run in with this guy (probably him) as well many
years ago. My neighbor put up a gate across the old
narrow gauge rail right of way after purchasing the
property. The previous owner let people use it. This
“trail” runs thru his property. This person showed up
one day with bolt cutters and cut the chain. When my
neighbor approached him the guy had a fit and attacked
my neighbor, saying he had a right to use this
“trail”. Again this attitude seems to be a norm for
too many mountain bikers so in the end they will
loose. I talked to a deputy sheriff that said
finding bolt cutters on bikers is common and he has
frequently found pistols on them!
In the end this mountain biking “fad” will fade, not
go away. There will eventually be law suits against
the parks and counties, water districts etc, by
environmental groups, to stop the damage being done by
mountain bikes. Insurance companies will eventually
charge more for people that mountain bike (like
smokers) or not cover biking accidents. (Who pays for
the injury to a pedestrian by a bike?) They will
respond by banning bikes off fire road, and because
the bikers do not obey laws they do not like, the
From: Kevin West <[email protected]>
Subject: Responce to bikers.
Please see attached. The following it the same
document but without formating.
See this page:
http://www.marinbike.org/Campaigns/ShareTheRoad/Motorists.htm
A response to this paper need to be sent. You have my
permission to use all or any part of this letter on
your site or in the response.
• In 30 years of driving I have yet to see a biker
stop at a stop sign or light if it was clear! This
includes the very busy Sir Francis Drake Boulevard.
How can they complain about drivers breaking laws?
• Many times I have been behind bikers that were
weaving from the shoulder to the double yellow line.
When they finally had a wide enough place to drive so
that I could pass without going over the double line
the biker again shot over to the yellow line, (just
like he was asking to be hit). Both times this
happened, different days, I was about to gun it, but
because I am a defensive driver I did not assume the
biker would do the right thing. Anyone else would
have hit him. A bike site said that only kids weave,
adults ride in a straight line!
• Many bikers do not watch where they are going. I
have been nearly hit while walking on a paved path, by
a biker who was looking at the ground in front of his
wheel. I had to jump away, he never saw me!
• Bikers have claimed that no one has been killed by
being hit by a bike. This is nonsense. It may not
happed a lot but it does happen. I can not find the
statistics on injuries and deaths to walkers every
year by bikes but I would like to see it.
Bikers show no signs of self preservation i.e.
defensive driving. They do not look for erratic
drivers and do keep to the right. In Marin, there
were two bikers were killed by drivers in the last few
years. One driver was sleepy from anti-histamines the
other was drunk. If the bikers were aware of their
surroundings they would have noticed the erratic
driving and got out of the way. (For that matter they
would not have been in the way in the first place!)
In the drunken case the woman biker that was hit was
at the lead of a large group, on a hill, she was the
only one hit, (there is a concrete shrine for her at
the collision spot). The driver allegedly crossed
over the yellow line hit the biker and missed the
rest. Hard to believe! Since the only witnesses are
bikers, we will never know what really happened. I
have no doubt what happened is that the biker that
was hit was “arrogantly” up head of everyone probably
weaving near the yellow line and of course not looking
for oncoming cars. She no doubt never saw what hit
her. What happened after these two cases were the
bikers raving that the drivers need to be made aware
of bikers. Hence the “Share the Road signs”, (one was
put in our property off the road without permission.)
Again both drivers were under the influence, no number
of “Share the road” signs would have made any
difference in these deaths. The bikers need to the
trained in defensive driving skills. At this time
they ride like they are invincible and when they get
hit blame it on bad drivers. There will always be bad
drivers! It is up to all of us to drive defensively
to keep alive! Bikers do not! There are bike trails
but most bikers do not use them, they would rather
play chicken with the cars! (There are plenty of
roads in West Marin that get little traffic.) The
fact that they bike on busy West Marin roads tells me
that they are looking for the danger and the adrenalin
rush that comes with it, (like the bungee jumpers,
steep mountain bikers, people that jump out of planes,
drive motorcycles too fast, etc.)
Bikers are claiming that they are banned from single
track trails only in Marin, more nonsense. Most
water district utilities ban bikes from trails. I
have not personally looked into it but talked to a
local advocate that did to check up on a bikers claim.
This person found NO water district in the SF Bay
Area, that allowed bikes on trails. As a matter of
fact some did not allow bikes on fire roads because of
the erosion going into their drinking water and road
maintenance expense. (I believe it was East Bay
Municipal District, i.e. Mount Diablo.
Try driving a car in West Marin on the weekend this it
what you will see.
• Bikers in groups biking side by side in twos and
threes, violation of the law.
• Bikers going over the speed limit down hills, Whites
Hill for example.
• Bikers do not yielding to cars that want to pass.
They never do! A car or strings of cars will follow
a biker for miles because it is not legal to cross
over the double line. (I could not find any vehicle
code that specifically says bikers can not block
traffic, i.e. required to pull over if it is not safe
for cars to pass. (I am sure I read a section along
time ago that stated that, must have been changed.)
In any case they have to follow the vehicle code.
There is as section that says in effect that “A driver
has to pull over if there are 5 or more cars following
it”. I have never seen a biker pull over for cars
and I have seen a dozen or more cars following a
biker(s) for miles passing many places to pull over.
Just a message to bikers, “You are in a car and after
followinga biker for miles, finally getting fed up
decide to pass. A car comes out of nowhere and you
have a choice between a head on with a car or hitting
a biker. What would you choose? The problem the
accident would be the fault of the driver, because he
crossedover the double yellow line! I would think
that the biker would do everything to stay alive like
pulling over for cars so the drivers do not get
frustrated and try to pass, unsafely. Silly me,
that’s not the way bikers think thought! I guess
they like leaving this world as martyrs.
• Bikers never stop at stop signs or stop lights if it
is clear.
• Bikers driving at night without lights or
reflectors, this is also in towns.
• Bikers wearing dark cloths, night and day, very
common.
• Bikers riding against traffic, see this a lot on Sir
Francis Drake Blvd going to work.
• Bikers riding in the road, when there is a bike
lane. In West Marin the bikers forced the county to
widen some of the roads for a “bike lane”. (Right of
the white line, but still paved.) Where I live,
Lagunitas, they would have had to take out dozens of
redwoods to make it wider; they had no problem with
this! It was stopped by the locals. Through the
state park the road was not changed since the state
park system does not have the money, not to mention it
would require removing a hundreds of redwoods! It is
amazing the damage and expense the bikers get away
with, just to satisfy a few people and their carnal
desires.
• Bikers on fire roads DO NOT SLOW down when passing
walkers. There are laws but they vary with the local
district. (Rarely bikers are sited; there are not
enough rangers to patrol all the land.) They go too
fast especially down hill with NO regard for hikers or
especially kids on bikes. It is very dangerous to
hike on fire roads with children because of the bikers
(that is why we do not anymore, it is a shame because
I hiked these beautiful areas as a kid and it is not
safe anymore because of bikers!)
What happens if you give a biker a little honk while
passing or to tell them you are behind them? The
chances are you will get yelling and a finger gesture
(at the least), or car banging at the next stop light,
not to mention things thrown at the car (someone told
me that a biker through an apple at their car after
they honked,. I have yet to see another reaction or
hear from someone on getting any other reaction. (An
elderly woman wrote a letter to the editor a number of
years ago and said that she gave a biker a little honk
while passing and at the next stop light the biker
banged on her car and yelled at her, she was
frightened.)
Again how can bikers say it is the car drivers that
are the problem?
What is this the say about drivers not giving bikers
the right of way? What right of way do they have?
They do not have the right of way to keep block the
road and keep cars from passing or to ride in the
middle of the road or ride double and triple. They do
not have the right of way to run stop signs and
lights. So what are they talking about? Biking is
good for environmental health Ha, Ha, Ha, bikers drive
to their biking area, (bikers put more miles on cars
than the rest of us! Look in West Marin and at all
the cars with bike racks! A very small number of the
bike miles are commuting to work and then only if it
suites them that day and the weather. This article is
full of nonsense it has to be responded to.
As usual they distort facts, here is CVC 21202 It
does not say that a biker can ride in the middle of
the road, as this article says! It says “As close as
practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the
roadway except under any of the following situations:”
21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a
roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of
traffic moving in the same direction at that time
shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand
curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the
following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or
vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection
or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions
(including, but not limited to, fixed or moving
objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals,
surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make
it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or
edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For
purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane"
is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a
vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is
authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a
highway, which highway carries traffic in one
direction only and has two or more marked traffic
lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of
that roadway as practicable.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm site
of CVC
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd11c1a4.htm
This is just the street bikers. The mountain bikers
are another problem and in the end will not win
because if they do get concessions, the damage to the
trails will be very apparent and despite what they say
they will eventually be “stopped”.
Both mountain and street bikers continually spout
false statistics, unscientific claims and
un-substantiated claims. They quote parts of laws out
of context and have their own interruptions of laws.
Their behavior and attitude says it all. The damage
to the trails is clear and the danger to hikers even
on fire roads is clear. (We stopped hiking on fire
roads year ago because of bikers, it was way too
dangerous for kids who can not jump out of the way as
fast as adults.)
A number of years ago I in a room with a guy that said
he was the head of some bike group. When another
person in the room asked him about the bikers riding
on trails illegally he responded “It is a stupid law
and we believe we do not have to obey stupid laws.”
Again their arrogance and defiance of the law is
showing and will be the end of them eventually. (I
believe this was the person caught making an illegal
trail in public land a few months ago!) My neighbor
had a run in with this guy (probably him) as well many
years ago. My neighbor put up a gate across the old
narrow gauge rail right of way after purchasing the
property. The previous owner let people use it. This
“trail” runs thru his property. This person showed up
one day with bolt cutters and cut the chain. When my
neighbor approached him the guy had a fit and attacked
my neighbor, saying he had a right to use this
“trail”. Again this attitude seems to be a norm for
too many mountain bikers so in the end they will
loose. I talked to a deputy sheriff that said
finding bolt cutters on bikers is common and he has
frequently found pistols on them!
In the end this mountain biking “fad” will fade, not
go away. There will eventually be law suits against
the parks and counties, water districts etc, by
environmental groups, to stop the damage being done by
mountain bikes. Insurance companies will eventually
charge more for people that mountain bike (like
smokers) or not cover biking accidents. (Who pays for
the injury to a pedestrian by a bike?) They will
respond by banning bikes off fire road, and because
the bikers do not obey laws they do not like, the