bikes and crosswalks

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Viktor Mikhailo, Apr 23, 2003.

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  1. [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >Why is it that bicyclists NEVER stop for pedestrians in crosswalks?
    >
    > I stop for

    [snip]

    > cats,

    I don't think I've ever encountered a cat crossing my path while bicycling

    > dogs,

    Dogs are an interesting category. I tend to treat loose dogs as predators, and I see no reason to
    make myself an easier prey by slowing, much less by stopping. A dog on a leash is a completely
    different type of animal than a dog on its own. Dogs on leashes are treated like pedestrians they
    are connected to.

    [snip]

    > rabbits,

    I have flushed rabbits from the undergrowth, but I have never had one cross my path.

    > lizards,

    We don't have these here.

    > squirrels,

    That killer squirrel webpage of Mike's says it all.

    > snakes,

    Where I encounter snakes is when they come out to the bike path to warm themselves in the sun. By
    the time I see them, I've already run over them. I feel rather bad about that. Then again, I'm
    probably the only cyclist that dodges earthworms.

    > birds

    What dumb bird is there out there in San Diego for you to nearly run over? Around here, they're
    smart enough to fly out of the way. I guess the one exception I can think of right off was a quail
    running her little chicks across the path one warm afternoon. I did slow down and let them pass
    before continuing on -- they were really cute.

    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky ([email protected]) Home of the meditative cyclist:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm

    Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky
     


  2. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:45:39 -0400, <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>I once received a blue ribbon from a pedestrian I'd stopped for.
    >
    >I'd like to see that ribbon.

    I found it.

    Subject: Re: Nice Moment of the Day Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 22:04:48 -0700 Message-ID:
    <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]>

    >It isn't pedestrians in crosswalks that I have a problem with, since I obey signals. It's the damn
    >jaywalkers.
    >
    Jaywalking can get you a ticket here so they're cautiously looking for cops. It's the drivers
    wandering to and from their parked cars who haven't a clue until you poke-check 'em with your pump.
    --
    zk
     
  3. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> writes:

    > The law here says pedestrians have the ROW even when they don't.

    The law up here says _any_ intersection is a basically a crosswalk, whether or not it's marked
    (unless using it as such has been specifically prohibited, which would be indicated with
    signs/fences.) I get the impression that a lot of people here think only white paint qualifies
    crosswalks. Even in painted crosswalks, I understand the pedestrians' ROW extends a certain distance
    beyond the painted lines, but I forget what that distance is.

    I don't mind stopping for pedestrians. There often amazed that I actually do. Of course, I've had to
    endure a certain passive-aggressive type who'll start across against a stale yellow while I'm
    waiting for my green. By the time I get it, they're dawdling in front of me. A few times I've
    startled them with a quick, li'l toot from my horn just as they get past me and aren't looking.
    That's just my mischievious way of saying, "Thanks."

    There was recently a police crackdown here on motorists who won't stop for pedestrians. It's been a
    long-standing problem here, which is why I don't mind giving peds a break. Besides, it often works
    out to be an opportunity to trade smiles -- something pedestrians rarely if ever get from drivers.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  4. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "Alex Rodriguez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > >
    > >
    > >Why is it that bicyclists NEVER stop for pedestrians in crosswalks?
    >
    > Why is it that when I have a green light pedestrians ignore me and keep walking across the street
    > thinkgin I will stop for them?
    > -----------------

    Solution: Water pistol, 50% white vinegar. Just annoying enough to make 'em think the next time,
    probably won't hurt clothing much. Make sure the pistol's a bright color so someone with a real gun
    doesn't shoot you off your bike.
     
  5. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    > Unlike a pedestrian crossing a crosswalk, passing motorists can normally adjust their "line" and
    > simply go around a bicyclist. From what I've been told about the laws of CA, you risk a large fine
    > if you start across the crosswalk before a pedestrian is completely out of it.
    >

    I think the vast majority of vehicular/intersection problems could be eliminated if people would
    simply make eye contact. Over the next week or so, watch people carefully, whether they are driving
    cars/bikes, or walking. You'll see what I mean. Too many numbskulls think they can depend on lights
    and paint stripes, without actually using their friggin' heads.

    There are many situations where, even with clear traffic signals, there is some doubt about what is
    the safe thing to do (as opposed to what's the legal thing to do). In the absence of a traffic cop
    with white gloves on, the only solution is communication, right? I've been pointing this out (ad
    nauseum) to my 14 yr old son for the past few months, since he's just a year or so away from
    driver's ed. He's actually beginning to comment that these things are true, based on his
    observations. If a 14 yr old kid gets it, why not some adults?

    -Doug
     
  6. Claire Petersky wrote:
    > [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>>Why is it that bicyclists NEVER stop for pedestrians in crosswalks?
    >>
    >>I stop for

    > [snip]

    >
    >>snakes,

    > Where I encounter snakes is when they come out to the bike path to warm themselves in the sun. By
    > the time I see them, I've already run over them. I feel rather bad about that. Then again, I'm
    > probably the only cyclist that dodges earthworms.

    I was out for a ride on Saturday morning, and there were 100s of worms on the bike path. I felt many
    twinges of guilt as I ran over some of them. I was trying to dodge them.

    This is in contrast to later in the season when on a morning with heavy dew, slugs cover the path.
    (Small, dime-size slugs). I ride over those without a second thought.

    >>birds
    >
    >
    > What dumb bird is there out there in San Diego for you to nearly run over? Around here, they're
    > smart enough to fly out of the way. I guess the one exception I can think of right off was a quail
    > running her little chicks across the path one warm afternoon. I did slow down and let them pass
    > before continuing on -- they were really cute.
    >

    I saw 13 turkeys off to the side of the bikepath on Saturday also -- in a corn field, foraging. 10
    hens, 3 strutting toms -- kinda cool. They're wily enough to avoid the path, however.

    The big bird pain on this path is Canada Geese. What a vicious bird. I never feel comfortable biking
    anywhere near them.

    Scott
     
  7. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >Why is it that bicyclists NEVER stop for pedestrians in crosswalks?
    > >
    > > I stop for
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > cats,
    >
    > I don't think I've ever encountered a cat crossing my path while bicycling

    Claire, you must have a large number of Chinese restaurants in your neighborhood. :)

    > > dogs,
    >
    > Dogs are an interesting category. I tend to treat loose dogs as predators, and I see no reason to
    > make myself an easier prey by slowing, much less by stopping. A dog on a leash is a completely
    > different type of animal than a dog on its own. Dogs on leashes are treated like pedestrians they
    > are connected to.
    >

    Gotta watch those leashes that can become longer, depending on whether the dog criminal is pushing
    the button or whatever keeps the leash from extending. I had an incident a few years back where the
    criminal let the leash get longer, the dog crossed my path (too close to avoid), but for some
    reason, stopped and let the leash go slack enough for me to ride over. I surprised the dog criminal
    by stopping and saying "That's the last time you'll ever let that happen, RIGHT?" He turned white as
    a sheet. I suspect it worked.

    Like drivers, you can't assume dog criminals will do the right thing. The only safe assumption is
    that they will NOT.
     
  8. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >I once received a blue ribbon from a pedestrian I'd stopped for.
    >
    > I'd like to see that ribbon. It isn't pedestrians in crosswalks that I have a problem with, since
    > I obey signals. It's the damn jaywalkers.
    >
    > Exercising due care and diligence is the first duty of any vehicle operator.
    >
    > The law here says pedestrians have the ROW even when they don't.

    If you go to a boat supply store, you'll find these neat portable horns about the size of a skinny
    can of shaving gel. They're loud enough to scare the bejesus out of a telephone pole. Just a
    thought.... :)
     
  9. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "Scott Lindstrom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > This is in contrast to later in the season when on a morning with heavy dew, slugs cover the path.
    > (Small, dime-size slugs). I ride over those without a second thought.
    >

    Hey! If those come from lawns & gardens not treated by ChemLawn or a dumb homeowner, they're called
    "escargot". :) Stick 'em in a dish of wet oatmeal for a few days to cleanse their little systems,
    and you've got a feast.
     
  10. Fritz M

    Fritz M Guest

    Scott Lindstrom <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I saw 13 turkeys off to the side of the bikepath on Saturday also -- in a corn field, foraging. 10
    > hens, 3 strutting toms -- kinda cool. They're wily enough to avoid the path, however.

    One of the treats in cycling is the ability to see wildlife up close. I've passed close to
    pheasants, owls, hawks, eagles, shrews, lizards, snakes, elk, deer, American bison, earthworms :),
    dogs, cats and various other critters. Last week, a pair of prairie dogs ran next to me on the side
    of the road. I had just passed them up when they each dived into their holes. I nearly hit a fox
    last year that darted across the road in front of me.

    A couple nights ago I was riding a trail near my house when I encountered a mountain lion; THAT
    scared the ### out of me and I'm very glad she ran away. "I tot I taw a puddy tat!" It was a little
    cat, about the size of a large rottweiler or so.

    RFM
    --
    To reply, translate domain from l33+ 2p33|< to alpha. 4=a 0=o 3=e +=t
     
  11. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Jon Isaacs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >I am sure that this same thought enters the mind of a
    > >> motorist who is following a cyclist.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > >There are those that you can tell are lollygagging across the road just 'cause, then there are
    > >those that are truly unable to walk any faster.
    >
    > I suggest that you can guess something. But there is nothing in the law
    that
    > says a pedestrian needs to speed across the road. It might be kind to do
    so in
    > order not to hinder other people.
    >
    > But the pedestrian has the right to the road and we as vehicle operators
    need
    > to respect that right and avoid jumping to conclusions about motivations
    just
    > because we are impatient.
    >
    There's respect due from both sides. From the pedestrian to get across in a timely fashion so as not
    to hold up traffic, and from drivers not to plow into the pedestrians. Just because you CAN do
    something doesn't make it right. I probably COULD make it through the crosswalk before the ped gets
    in my way (in my truck), but it isn't right. But like a lot of other things in this life, we've got
    different opinions on this subject too.

    > >Unlike a pedestrian crossing a crosswalk, passing motorists can normally adjust their "line" and
    > >simply go around a bicyclist.
    >
    > You can be sure there are plenty of motorists thinking the same thing
    about
    > cyclists as you are thinking about pedestrians.
    >
    > > From what I've been told about the laws of CA, you risk a large fine if you start across the
    > > crosswalk before a pedestrian is completely out of it.
    >
    > Not sure but as a native of California, I was always taught that
    pedestrians
    > had the right of way and it makes good sense to me.
    >
    > When one considers the difference in mass between a vehicle and a person, giving the pedestrian
    > strong support is necessary.
    >
    > Welcome to California, pedestrians are not targets here, they are
    protected
    > species.
    >
    Too bad, some of them should have bullseyes painted on them. Make population control easier!
     
  12. "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Dogs are an interesting category. I tend to treat loose dogs as predators, and I see no reason to
    >> make myself an easier prey by slowing, much less by stopping. A dog on a leash is a completely
    >> different type of animal than a dog on its own. Dogs on leashes are treated like pedestrians they
    >> are connected to.
    >>
    >
    > Gotta watch those leashes that can become longer, depending on whether the dog criminal is pushing
    > the button or whatever keeps the leash from extending. I had an incident a few years back where
    > the criminal let the leash get longer, the dog crossed my path (too close to avoid), but for some
    > reason, stopped and let the leash go slack enough for me to ride over. I surprised the dog
    > criminal by stopping and saying "That's the last time you'll ever let that happen, RIGHT?" He
    > turned white as a sheet. I suspect it worked.

    dog criminal???

    --
    *******************************************
    Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli Remove urka-gurka to reply
    *******************************************
    'One way to stop a run away horse is to bet on him.'
    *******************************************
     
  13. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "Marcel Beaudoin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    > > "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >> Dogs are an interesting category. I tend to treat loose dogs as predators, and I see no reason
    > >> to make myself an easier prey by slowing, much less by stopping. A dog on a leash is a
    > >> completely different type of animal than a dog on its own. Dogs on leashes are treated like
    > >> pedestrians they are connected to.
    > >>
    > >
    > > Gotta watch those leashes that can become longer, depending on whether the dog criminal is
    > > pushing the button or whatever keeps the leash from extending. I had an incident a few years
    > > back where the criminal let the leash get longer, the dog crossed my path (too close to avoid),
    > > but for some reason, stopped and let the leash go slack enough for me to ride over. I surprised
    > > the dog criminal by stopping and saying "That's the last time you'll ever let that happen,
    > > RIGHT?" He turned white as a sheet. I suspect it worked.
    >
    >
    > dog criminal???
    >

    Yes. People who take their dogs off their property, and accompany them as they "visit" other
    peoples' property. It's illegal virtually everywhere there are laws regarding sanitation, regardless
    of whether they clean up after their dogs.
     
  14. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> writes:
    > "Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> >I once received a blue ribbon from a pedestrian I'd stopped for.
    >>
    >> I'd like to see that ribbon. It isn't pedestrians in crosswalks that I have a problem with, since
    >> I obey signals. It's the damn jaywalkers.

    [a little brevity-snip]

    > If you go to a boat supply store, you'll find these neat portable horns about the size of a skinny
    > can of shaving gel. They're loud enough to scare the bejesus out of a telephone pole. Just a
    > thought.... :)

    I think that might be overkill. A signalling device should have sufficient imperativeness to get
    people's attention or maybe even wake them up if necessary, but it doesn't have to make them load
    their pants, or blow their eardrums out.

    One nice thing about my rubber-bulb horn is, one can modulate the attack on the bulb, and get a
    range of tones, and to a somewhat lesser extent, volumes. More often than not, I want "soft enough"
    rather than "loud enough".

    People who jaywalk in front of oncoming bicycles are indeed a problem -- they're often prone to
    underestimating the speed and stoppability of the bike. I'm not averse to giving them a
    warning/reproofing honk. But it's not about getting even, or any other sort of road rage impetii --
    it's a just way of saying to them, "Hey, watch out! By the way, ya made a mistake -- please think
    about it." When /drivers/ honk at jaywalkers, I think the intent is the same. Usually the drivers
    (around here, anyway) just give their horn a soft tap or two at jaywalkers, instead of a sustained
    blast. Unless they've got to hit the binders and the horn at the same time while screeching to a
    sudden halt.

    Here in Vancouver, people blithely pushing their shopping carts down the middle of the street, on
    their way to the bottle depot, is getting to be particular cause for concern. I don't wanna see them
    getting hit by bikes ... but more especially, by cars.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  15. Jacques

    Jacques Guest

    On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:17:10 +0000, Viktor Mikhailovich Polesov wrote:

    > Why is it that bicyclists NEVER stop for pedestrians in crosswalks?
    >

    Well, I do stop for pedestrians. And pedestrians often keep waiting until I ask them to please cross
    that road. And while I'm waiting, cars pass me without stopping. Actually, if I intend to stop for a
    pedestrian, I have to move first to the center of the road to force cars to stop too. If i dont,
    they look at me, wonder "what is this cyclist doing there at the crossroad", and ignore the
    pedestrian.
     
  16. "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in news:l0Wpa.581$%Z4.364
    @news02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net:

    >>
    >> dog criminal???
    >>
    >
    > Yes. People who take their dogs off their property, and accompany them as they "visit" other
    > peoples' property. It's illegal virtually everywhere there are laws regarding sanitation,
    > regardless of whether they clean up after their dogs.

    OK, didn't know. Here in Canada, there are poop-and-scoop laws, but that is about it.

    --
    *******************************************
    Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli Remove urka-gurka to reply
    *******************************************
    'You may be young only once, but you can be immature forever.'
    *******************************************
     
  17. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "Marcel Beaudoin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in news:l0Wpa.581$%Z4.364
    > @news02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net:
    >
    > >>
    > >> dog criminal???
    > >>
    > >
    > > Yes. People who take their dogs off their property, and accompany them
    as
    > > they "visit" other peoples' property. It's illegal virtually everywhere there are laws regarding
    > > sanitation, regardless of whether they clean up after their dogs.
    >
    > OK, didn't know. Here in Canada, there are poop-and-scoop laws, but that
    is
    > about it.

    We have those, too, in most communities, but too many people don't follow them. My son's baseball
    coach was our town justice a couple of years ago, and he suggested reading about an ancient law
    called "civil trespass". Normally, it covers such things as objects or substances landing on your
    property. It's an extremely flexible law, and if you've broken it, there's practically no defense.
    The coach gave me an example I ended up using. I had a neighbor who liked ChemLawn. The company only
    seemed to spray on days when their chemicals would blow onto my vegetable garden, where most of the
    neighborhood kids came for snacks when they were out playing. (It's amazing how they'll eat
    vegetables they'd never try if their parents asked them to). Anyway, permitting those chemicals to
    cross property lines is civil trespass. He told me to tell the neighbor and the spray company that
    if it happened again, he'd issue a court order specifying that they be handcuffed and arrested
    immediately, and cool their heels in jail until an environmental lab finished analyzing the deposits
    on my plants. The problem stopped instantly. No more ChemLawn.

    Same law is usable for dog problems. Even if they're cleaned up after by their owners, the stuff
    leaves a scent which invites MORE dogs, usually the strays. It's not a problem for people who like
    cleaning off their shoes constantly, but most of us don't.
     
  18. Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
    > "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in news:l0Wpa.581$%Z4.364
    > @news02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net:
    >
    >
    >>>dog criminal???
    >>>
    >>
    >>Yes. People who take their dogs off their property, and accompany them as they "visit" other
    >>peoples' property. It's illegal virtually everywhere there are laws regarding sanitation,
    >>regardless of whether they clean up after their dogs.
    >
    >
    > OK, didn't know. Here in Canada, there are poop-and-scoop laws, but that is about it.

    Same here, and Madison is about as anti-dog as you can get. There's the sensible clean-up-
    after-your dog law, you can't put the dogdirt (as Mom would call it) in public trash bins, and the
    dog has to be on a leash. (That's the one I routinely break). Having a dog relieve itself on a
    property is not illegal. Not cleaning up after it is.

    Scott
     
  19. Doug Kanter

    Doug Kanter Guest

    "jacques" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:17:10 +0000, Viktor Mikhailovich Polesov wrote:
    >
    > > Why is it that bicyclists NEVER stop for pedestrians in crosswalks?
    > >
    >
    > Well, I do stop for pedestrians. And pedestrians often keep waiting until I ask them to please
    > cross that road. And while I'm waiting, cars pass me without stopping. Actually, if I intend to
    > stop for a pedestrian, I have to move first to
    the
    > center of the road to force cars to stop too. If i dont, they look at me, wonder "what is this
    > cyclist doing there at the crossroad", and ignore the pedestrian.
    >

    Stopping in the middle of the road is a noble gesture, but it'll get you killed. Two years ago, an
    elderly woman here hit two 10 yr old girls standing ON THE CURB. She then left the scene.
    Fortunately, it was witnessed by a school bus driver, who got the woman's license plate number. The
    police spokesman said the woman's excuse was "I thought they were garbage cans".

    Short story: Blind people are allowed to drive, and you don't know which ones they are. Do you
    really want to park your bike where they're MORE likely to hit you?
     
  20. "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Scott Lindstrom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > This is in contrast to later in the season when on a morning with heavy dew, slugs cover the
    > > path. (Small, dime-size slugs). I ride over those without a second thought.
    > >
    >
    > Hey! If those come from lawns & gardens not treated by ChemLawn or a dumb homeowner, they're
    > called "escargot". :) Stick 'em in a dish of wet oatmeal for a few days to cleanse their little
    > systems, and you've got a feast.

    haven't done slugs. but escargots--snails--definitely.

    saute in a bit of butter, garlic, and white wine. lovely.

    Or you can do as Apicius tells you, which sounds absolutely lovely...

    Snails:

    (334): Milk-fed snails. Take snails, dry them, remove their membrane, that they can come out. Toss
    them into a bowl of milk and salt for one day, and for subsequent days in milk by itself,
    changing the milk often. When they will have been fed so that they cannot withdraw into
    their shells, fry them in oil. Add vinegar; these may be eaten as chicken might be. [In sec.
    337, he also suggests using *buttermilk*]

    -Luigi
     
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