Bike's and the legal right to the road



alienator

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Interesting comment by Bob Mionske:

Many motorists—specifically, those who refuse to share the roads—mistakenly believe that their possession of a driver’s license gives them a superior claim to the road. These are the motorists who exclaim that, “Until cyclists are licensed and insured, they don’t have a right to the road.” In fact, the right to travel is an ancient right, now recognized as one of our constitutional rights, and the roads are the commons, open to all for travel and other uses. Rather than signifying a superior claim to the road, a driver’s license merely grants the holder the revocable privilege of operating a motor vehicle on the commons. Because other road users are not required to be licensed (and that tacitly means this right cannot be revoked) their right to use the roads is in fact superior to that of the motorist.

Bob's take does shine a new light on the never ending stuggle betwixt road cyclists and drivers, especially the tired arguments put forth by some drivers, that we don't have the right to the road since we allegedly don't(although we really do) pay taxes, aren't licensed, and aren't insured (worth consideration).

I don't think Bicycling magazine is worth the trees killed to print it or the energy spent to maintain its online presence. Bob Mionske's columns and those by the Bike Snob, though, are redeeming factors.
 

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alienator said:
Interesting comment by Bob Mionske:

Many motorists—specifically, those who refuse to share the roads—mistakenly believe that their possession of a driver’s license gives them a superior claim to the road. These are the motorists who exclaim that, “Until cyclists are licensed and insured, they don’t have a right to the road.” In fact, the right to travel is an ancient right, now recognized as one of our constitutional rights, and the roads are the commons, open to all for travel and other uses. Rather than signifying a superior claim to the road, a driver’s license merely grants the holder the revocable privilege of operating a motor vehicle on the commons. Because other road users are not required to be licensed (and that tacitly means this right cannot be revoked) their right to use the roads is in fact superior to that of the motorist.

Bob's take does shine a new light on the never ending stuggle betwixt road cyclists and drivers, especially the tired arguments put forth by some drivers, that we don't have the right to the road since we allegedly don't(although we really do) pay taxes, aren't licensed, and aren't insured (worth consideration).

I don't think Bicycling magazine is worth the trees killed to print it or the energy spent to maintain its online presence. Bob Mionske's columns and those by the Bike Snob, though, are redeeming factors.

Wow...that's just...amazing. I mean, none of us would have ever known bicyclists had a right to the road until you posted a thread no less called, "Bikes and the legal right to the road." What's even more amazing is I can still have you on "Ignore" and post, knowing what this stale nugget of information is going to be about...
 

alienator

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I see. So you've got nothing to contribute.

Apparently it's not known by everyone as Black Hawk, CO has banned cycling on at least some of their roads. Maybe you didn't know this. Maybe you haven't spent enough time on the road, on a bicycle, to understand how prevalent is the misguided assumption by drivers that they're the ones supposed to be on the road.

Also, Mionske's comment re: a driver's revocable right and the irrevocable rights of cyclists and pedestrians have not been discussed widely, if at all, in the media.

Given the situation in Black Hawk and the ever present--and possibly growing--animosity toward cyclists by some drivers, Mionske's comments are apropos, certainly so in this forum.
 

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alienator said:
I see. So you've got nothing to contribute.

Apparently it's not known by everyone as Black Hawk, CO has banned cycling on at least some of their roads. Maybe you didn't know this. Maybe you haven't spent enough time on the road, on a bicycle, to understand how prevalent is the misguided assumption by drivers that they're the ones supposed to be on the road.

Everyone here old enough to obtain a driver license learned in drivers' ed that cyclists have just as much right to the road and we need to respect that as motorists. Whether motorists DO respect that right is another story altogether and remains to be seen.

As cyclists we've all been victims of the idiot driver who thinks it's funny to "buzz" a cyclist by flying by at break-neck speeds or making a close pass. Every time I go out with the club on a ride we run into at least 3 jackasses that do just that.

These dumbass editors of these magazines write page-long drivels for nothing more but to whet somebody's appetite to write in so they have reader letters to post.

I'm sure Black Hawk, CO have perfectly legitimate reasons for banning bicycles on some of their roads. Have you ever been to Black Hawk, CO, and travelled these roads on a bicycle? Has it ever occurred to you that these roads are dangerously narrow or in poor shape? No. You haven't. Instead, what you're going to do is copy and paste an article from Bicycling Magazine (of all sources...), and then get on your soapbox (like you do in every thread) and beat your chest about how the gov't are revoking our rights to ride our little steel ponies up and down public highways. Not once have you thought about the logical reasons as to WHY bicycles have been banned in some parts of this county in CO.

Yes, our gov't are evil beings, and yes, they are idiots, but every now and then the sun does shine on a dog's ass. Maybe just for once, they called this one right. Now, before you go off on another one of your common 5th-grade rants about what a jerk I am (boo f-ing hoo), go read about the subject you just posted and find the facts...something you aren't going to find from some idiot's article in a magazine. Posting and agreeing with what you just copied and pasted is like basing your next presidential election vote on whatever Michael Moore says in one of his "documentaries."
 

alienator

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GT Fanatic said:
Everyone here old enough to obtain a driver license learned in drivers' ed that cyclists have just as much right to the road and we need to respect that as motorists. Whether motorists DO respect that right is another story altogether and remains to be seen.

So?

These dumbass editors of these magazines write page-long drivels for nothing more but to whet somebody's appetite to write in so they have reader letters to post.

Actually, you don't know what you're talking about. Bob Mionske is not a magazine editor. He is a famous attorney/cyclist that focuses on law re: bicycles.

I'm sure Black Hawk, CO have perfectly legitimate reasons for banning bicycles on some of their roads. Have you ever been to Black Hawk, CO, and travelled these roads on a bicycle? Has it ever occurred to you that these roads are dangerously narrow or in poor shape? No. You haven't. Instead, what you're going to do is copy and paste an article from Bicycling Magazine (of all sources...), and then get on your soapbox (like you do in every thread) and beat your chest about how the gov't are revoking our rights to ride our little steel ponies up and down public highways. Not once have you thought about the logical reasons as to WHY bicycles have been banned in some parts of this county in CO.

Yes, I have been to Black Hawk, several times, thank you, and have pedaled the roads. I lived in Colorado for a while and have vacationed there quite a bit. Thanks, though, for asking. The article in question does address the reason for Black Hawk's ban: the reason is likely the result of the influence of casinos on the city budget and on the Mayor's office. The article specifically states that there wasn't any bicycle fatality or accident that preceded the law. Bicycle Colorado, an advocacy group, talked to both the City Manager and police chief in Black Hawk, and neither could even remember a bicycle fatality or accident involving a bicycle and car.......ever. Mionske also points out that the Black Hawk bike law contravenes Colorado Law, and in Colorado, this isn't allowed.

Now, before you go off on another one of your common 5th-grade rants about what a jerk I am (boo f-ing hoo), go read about the subject you just posted and find the facts...something you aren't going to find from some idiot's article in a magazine. Posting and agreeing with what you just copied and pasted is like basing your next presidential election vote on whatever Michael Moore says in one of his "documentaries."

Now, it is apparent that you comment without any facts in hand. You demonstrate zero knowledge of any facts pertaining to the story. The Black Hawk story isn't new and has been in the news for a few weeks, now, so it's odd that you appear to know nothing about it. As for an "idiot's article," I think Bob Mionske can rest comfortably on his achievements and reputation.

It seems as though you didn't even bother to think before writing. Moreover, it appears, yet again, that you lack any developed critical thought skills, as you clearly rely on insults, invective, and off topic allusions to "make" your "points." I can only assume that in making your allegation about 5th-grade rants, that you don't even understand what critical thought is, what reasoned comments are, or even what a rant is. You should at least look that last one up because a large portion of your "arguments" bear all the signs of rants.

Again, you might try posting something that contributes.
 

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alienator said:
So?



Actually, you don't know what you're talking about. Bob Mionske is not a magazine editor. He is a famous attorney/cyclist that focuses on law re: bicycles.



Yes, I have been to Black Hawk, several times, thank you, and have pedaled the roads. I lived in Colorado for a while and have vacationed there quite a bit. Thanks, though, for asking. The article in question does address the reason for Black Hawk's ban: the reason is likely the result of the influence of casinos on the city budget and on the Mayor's office. The article specifically states that there wasn't any bicycle fatality or accident that preceded the law. Bicycle Colorado, an advocacy group, talked to both the City Manager and police chief in Black Hawk, and neither could even remember a bicycle fatality or accident involving a bicycle and car.......ever. Mionske also points out that the Black Hawk bike law contravenes Colorado Law, and in Colorado, this isn't allowed.



Now, it is apparent that you comment without any facts in hand. You demonstrate zero knowledge of any facts pertaining to the story. The Black Hawk story isn't new and has been in the news for a few weeks, now, so it's odd that you appear to know nothing about it. As for an "idiot's article," I think Bob Mionske can rest comfortably on his achievements and reputation.

It seems as though you didn't even bother to think before writing. Moreover, it appears, yet again, that you lack any developed critical thought skills, as you clearly rely on insults, invective, and off topic allusions to "make" your "points." I can only assume that in making your allegation about 5th-grade rants, that you don't even understand what critical thought is, what reasoned comments are, or even what a rant is. You should at least look that last one up because a large portion of your "arguments" bear all the signs of rants.

Again, you might try posting something that contributes.

Wrong, AGAIN. Read the last paragraph of your blabbering article about NOTHING. Bob simply writes as a columnist for Bicycle Magazine, hardly a credible source of anything.

Bob can be an attorney all he likes, because it's obvious he's doing a **** job if things like this are happening.

And sure, you've been everywhere in the world. :rolleyes:

BTW, nice try on sounding intelligent and going into your lame speech about "critical thought." Keep trying. One day, you'll get it...one day.

....Not today.
 

jhuskey

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This is an aspect of cycling that I have been much more involved in than cycling competition the last few years. Although some places seem to taking away from cycling some other areas of the country are enhancing cyclist's rights and space.
The problem with some motorists is that they have the "front of the line syndrome" the false entitlement to be first in line. I am in no particular hurry I just wanna be first and will destroy anyone that gets in my way.
Another part of the equation is ths clash of cultures. I personally don't understand how anyone could watch golf, wrestling etc. and get excited but then I don't have to deal with people palying golf in my everyday life and that's the big difference with cyclist, we are seemingly invading peoples space.
I don't have a clue how to fully educate people, so for the time being I will keep a ear to the rear and cycle defensively.
 

alienator

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jhuskey said:
This is an aspect of cycling that I have been much more involved in than cycling competition the last few years. Although some places seem to taking away from cycling some other areas of the country are enhancing cyclist's rights and space.
The problem with some motorists is that they have the "front of the line syndrome" the false entitlement to be first in line. I am in no particular hurry I just wanna be first and will destroy anyone that gets in my way.
Another part of the equation is ths clash of cultures. I personally don't understand how anyone could watch golf, wrestling etc. and get excited but then I don't have to deal with people palying golf in my everyday life and that's the big difference with cyclist, we are seemingly invading peoples space.
I don't have a clue how to fully educate people, so for the time being I will keep a ear to the rear and cycle defensively.

Hopefully, Black Hawk is an aberration that won't be seen again.

Unfortunately, the US developed a strangling addiction to autos which does anything but decrease any sense of entitlement in drivers. Not only do we have to deal with the entitlement, but we also have to deal with and recognize that autos are inherently anti-social in that they isolate the driver and passengers from the rest of the world around them. Obviously a lot of drivers display complete oblivion to things going on outside their sterile cubes on wheels.

How do we educate people? How do we do that in a country that puts very little emphasis on education?
 

alienator

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GT Fanatic said:
Wrong, AGAIN. Read the last paragraph of your blabbering article about NOTHING. Bob simply writes as a columnist for Bicycle Magazine, hardly a credible source of anything.

Bob can be an attorney all he likes, because it's obvious he's doing a **** job if things like this are happening.

And sure, you've been everywhere in the world. :rolleyes:

BTW, nice try on sounding intelligent and going into your lame speech about "critical thought." Keep trying. One day, you'll get it...one day.

....Not today.

You've yet to make a salient point or anything resembling a contribution, so enjoy your ranting.
 

jhuskey

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Another aspect is the money issue. Cycling does not generate that much money after the bike has been sold.
Golfing, skiing and other such industries have fees involved after the product is sold, therefore their lobbys have much more influence driven by resorts and their money.
 

alienator

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jhuskey said:
Another aspect is the money issue. Cycling does not generate that much money after the bike has been sold.
Golfing, skiing and other such industries have fees involved after the product is sold, therefore their lobbys have much more influence driven by resorts and their money.

And thus, Black Hawk, gambling central....well, not counting Central City.
 

64Paramount

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At times I'm pretty quick to say that we bike riders bring the ill will of the motorists on ourselves because of the way the majority of us ignore traffic laws, like not signaling our intentions or running stop signs for instance.

But, motorists do those things too.....don't they? And other motorists get annoyed by these events and sometimes they can react with rage.

I try to look at issues from other peoples point of view to understand how they react and I do realize that if I'm riding down a busy street and impeding the flow of traffic, even though I have the right to do so, that it will probably cause some of the motorists to become annoyed or angry.

What I have never understood is how a motorist can get so angry at me when I'm riding on the shoulder of the road and not in their way at all! I really don't understand that. The only thing I can think that they have had previous negative interactions with cyclists and are possibly just taking it out on me because I'm there and I'm riding a bike. I dunno!

I don't believe that most motorists or cyclists understand how to use hand signals properly. I often get confused looks from drivers when I signal and I have only seen one other cyclist signal so far this year. That leads me to believe that there is very little training on bicycle interaction included with the drivers education courses used currently to prepare young people to take the license test.

I'm not sure to do about the situation in the larger sense, but in my own small way I just try to follow the traffic laws, use common sense, and be courteous. Basically the same things I do when I drive a car.

I would have to agree with Bob Mionske that there are a large number of motorists that believe that motorists have a superior right to the road.
 

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64Paramount said:
At times I'm pretty quick to say that we bike riders bring the ill will of the motorists on ourselves because of the way the majority of us ignore traffic laws, like not signaling our intentions or running stop signs for instance.

But, motorists do those things too.....don't they? And other motorists get annoyed by these events and sometimes they can react with rage.

I try to look at issues from other peoples point of view to understand how they react and I do realize that if I'm riding down a busy street and impeding the flow of traffic, even though I have the right to do so, that it will probably cause some of the motorists to become annoyed or angry.

What I have never understood is how a motorist can get so angry at me when I'm riding on the shoulder of the road and not in their way at all! I really don't understand that. The only thing I can think that they have had previous negative interactions with cyclists and are possibly just taking it out on me because I'm there and I'm riding a bike. I dunno!

I don't believe that most motorists or cyclists understand how to use hand signals properly. I often get confused looks from drivers when I signal and I have only seen one other cyclist signal so far this year. That leads me to believe that there is very little training on bicycle interaction included with the drivers education courses used currently to prepare young people to take the license test.

I'm not sure to do about the situation in the larger sense, but in my own small way I just try to follow the traffic laws, use common sense, and be courteous. Basically the same things I do when I drive a car.

I would have to agree with Bob Mionske that there are a large number of motorists that believe that motorists have a superior right to the road.

It's the "I'm bigger than you" syndrome. They feel since they're in big, brawny vehicles, they can just do whatever they please, which brings on this sense of entitlement. Not to mention, bicycling isn't as popular here as it is in other countries, so motorists just don't see why they need to share the road.

As for why motorists feel it necessary to blow horns, swerve at cyclists, and do close fly-bys, nobody can answer that question. It doesn't matter that cyclists are using the shoulders or riding as close to the shoulder as possible.

As for even trying to hypothesize why these people act the way they do, it's pointless. It's not even worth trying to figure out, because in the end it isn't going to change the way people think.

Before getting into cycling, yeah, I admit it, I'd get annoyed by the "Lance wanna-be" huffing and puffing up a hill at rush-hour, holding up a line of 100+ cars at 2 mph, but it is what it is. Not once have I ever had the urge to "buzz" the guy by doing a 3-inch fly-by from their handlebars, startle them by honking the horn, swerving towards them, or even throwing things at them. There's just no rhyme or reason...
 

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Yojimbo_ said:
Hey GT Fanatic

FAIL. You lost this round big time.

Actually, YOU fail, because you're the one who stuck your nose in just to kiss Alienator's ass.
 

Mister2pi

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Unfortunately I see this issue boiling down to respect for others, and in my opinion and experience, our culture seems to be instilling less and less of that in the youth.
 

alienator

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Mister2pi said:
Unfortunately I see this issue boiling down to respect for others, and in my opinion and experience, our culture seems to be instilling less and less of that in the youth.

I dunno: it seems the Black Hawk government has a lot of respect for the influence of the gaming industry and the cash from said industry which can line their pockets.
 

Mister2pi

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alienator said:
I dunno: it seems the Black Hawk government has a lot of respect for the influence of the gaming industry and the cash from said industry which can line their pockets.

LOL...I hear that.
 

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Mister2pi said:
Unfortunately I see this issue boiling down to respect for others, and in my opinion and experience, our culture seems to be instilling less and less of that in the youth.

Yep, that's abundantly clear. It's amazing how much an ass-busting instills respect in others. Welcome to the "ME" generation.

I just don't get it. As children we got busted and we screwed up, and today, it's all about getting a "time out." WTF is that? :confused:
 

Yojimbo_

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GT Fanatic said:
Actually, YOU fail, because you're the one who stuck your nose in just to kiss Alienator's ass.

lol. You lost one argument so now you're trying to start another. It won't work.

Double FAIL this time.