Bikes at the supermarket

[Peter Clinch]

Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:

> What puzzles me is that most bikes sold and running in the UK have no
> lights attached. I mean - battery run lights are fine for light weight road
> bikes, when you occasionally end up in the dark. Yet I don't regret having
> invested in a hub dynamo. The sensor switches it on/off automatically.
> Nowadays even the bikes regularly sold at discounter stores like Aldi in
> Germany are equipped with simple hub dynamos.

The market you've grown up with is for utility transport bikes to do a
working job. That market is something of a niche in the UK, with most
bike shops concentrating firmly on the leisure market. The general
perception of leisure riding is it's done in daylight, so it's hard to
buy a bike with built-in lighting.

And if you think it's dumb... I agree! But that's market and marketing
for you.

> I'm sure
> big companies like Halfords could get a good deal on those cheap hub
> dynamos like Shimano DH-3N20, Suntour DH-CT600 or Nova Tec.

"There's no demand" is the usual answer to this :-(
Quite a few UK /cyclists/, let alone the general public, are unaware of
even the existence of hub dynamos (I was, for many years). Sad, but true.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[congokid]

In article <[email protected]>, elyob
<[email protected]> writes

>Ocado? It'd probably be as cheap and better environmentally[1].

That's how I've been doing it recently, though it's a pain doing it and
then waiting for it. Last Sunday I went to the local S about half a mile
away to get things for lunch (had a guest round). The shop cost around
43 UKP and was a ******* to carry home. I had to stop several times to
rest my arms.

>For me it's a 5 minute walk to the supermarket so can go as often as I like.
>Personally this means that I cannot carry too much, which means that I have
>to shop sensibly. I reckon I could probably carry more with a couple of
>panniers, but I have to cross a footbridge. But yes, it'd be more hassle.
>However if I was 15 minutes cycle away, I'd do that.[2]

I've done light shopping on my Brompton, at the local W and T about 3
minutes' ride away, but I can't carry a lot.
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

 

[dkahn400]

On 1 Mar, 18:08, Richard Bates
<[email protected]> wrote:
> David Hansen wrote:
> > Bike. Connect Bike Hod and ride in "normal" clothes to supermarket.
> > Leave bike at front doors and take Bike Hod inside. Scan items into
> > Bike Hod. Pay. Return home. Wheel Bike Hod into kitchen and unload.
>
> Or the version I'm hoping to be able to do soon:
>
> As above but fold brompton and place in trolley.

Make sure they don't charge you for a Brompton at the checkout.

--
Dave...

 

[Alistair Gunn]

Peter Clinch twisted the electrons to say:
> Quite a few UK /cyclists/, let alone the general public, are unaware of
> even the existence of hub dynamos (I was, for many years). Sad, but true.

Worse, I suspect a reasonable chunk of them (the cyclists at least) have
experienced a really poor bottle dynamo at some point - which is probably
enough to put them off anything which has the word "dynamo" in it's name.
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

 

[Alistair Gunn]

naked_draughtsman twisted the electrons to say:
> I think they should also be more willing to give their green clubcard
> points to people who use rucksacks and don't use carrier bags in the
> first place. Sometimes they will do it if you mention it to them but
> not automatically.

The first time I used Tescos after they introduced the whole "green
clubcard points" thing the cashier failed to count my panniers. I
emailed the Tesco Clubcard customer service people with the details.
After a bit of back and forth, I ended up with an extra 100 clubcard
points as "compensation".
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

 

[Andreas =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schulze-B=E4ing?=]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:20:31 +0000 schrieb Peter Clinch:

> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>
>> What puzzles me is that most bikes sold and running in the UK have no
>> lights attached. I mean - battery run lights are fine for light weight road
>> bikes, when you occasionally end up in the dark. Yet I don't regret having
>> invested in a hub dynamo. The sensor switches it on/off automatically.
>> Nowadays even the bikes regularly sold at discounter stores like Aldi in
>> Germany are equipped with simple hub dynamos.
>
> The market you've grown up with is for utility transport bikes to do a
> working job.

I would agree if you talk about the Netherlands. But for Germany the
primary intended use of a bike is for leisure purposes - for most people
typically short weekend trips and using the bike less than 500 km a year.
But I guess many people would like their bikes to be equipped for all
eventual purposes - eventually commute every now and then, go to the
pub/gym/cinema by bike at night, do some quick shopping in the city. So
dynamo driven lights and a rack are usually on the wisht-to-have list.

> That market is something of a niche in the UK, with most
> bike shops concentrating firmly on the leisure market. The general
> perception of leisure riding is it's done in daylight, so it's hard to
> buy a bike with built-in lighting.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. If the supply would be there - there
might be more demand. I see loads of those bikes for leisure purposes here
that are used in the dark - often without any light. The other day I was
rushing along a road at night here in Liverpool at reasonably high speed.
And I nearly crashed into a group of teenagers on black mountainbikes
wearing black track suits - covering their heads in black hoodies. And not
even a trace of bicycle lighting nor reflectors on their side. Luckily my
breaks worked fine.

> And if you think it's dumb... I agree! But that's market and marketing
> for you.

Well - it's not just the market, also the legal framework. So one factor to
consider is that for example in Germany it's forbidden to sell a bike for
public road use that is not equipped with dynamo lighting. Exceptions are
only light road bikes for sport use and mountain bikes. But the latter have
to be clearly labelled as not made for use on public roads.

>> I'm sure
>> big companies like Halfords could get a good deal on those cheap hub
>> dynamos like Shimano DH-3N20, Suntour DH-CT600 or Nova Tec.
>
> "There's no demand" is the usual answer to this :-(
> Quite a few UK /cyclists/, let alone the general public, are unaware of
> even the existence of hub dynamos (I was, for many years). Sad, but true.

Well - a friend of mine has got an old Raleigh bike. I guess it's from the
early 70s. It's still running fine. And to my surprise I recently
discovered that it has a hub dynamo - from Sturmey Archer. According to
Wikipedia it was called Dynohub. So there must have been a time when hub
dynamos were more common in the UK. After all they seem to have been
invented here. Somehow that reminds me now of the Pendolino Invented in
Britain, developed and produced in Italy.

By the way - what I like about the bicycle market in the UK is that you can
still get bikes without any suspension except the tyres - and those nice
touring bikes which are based on road bikes. It's nearly impossible to find
those bikes in Germany anymore. Even the so-called city bikes have almost
all got one of those useless suspension forks. As useless as SUVs in cities
- only purpose is to show off. Also the sacred classical design of dutch
bikes is now spoiled by those ugly and useless front suspensions.
A simple commuter bike without any suspension like Halfords Carrera Subway
or the Revolution Pathfinder from EBC costs a fortune in Germany. Like e.g.
these ones:
<http://www.stevensbikes.de/2007/index.php?bik_id=143&sect=description&lang=en_US>
<http://www.stevensbikes.de/2007/index.php?bik_id=181&lang=en_US>
<http://www.maxcycles.net/html/steel_lite_pro.html>
<http://www.maxcycles.net/html/twenty_six_gt.html>
<http://www.gudereit.de/sxm.htm>
Most of these bikes cost more than £400.

Andreas

 

[Peter Clinch]

Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:

> It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. If the supply would be there - there
> might be more demand.

Yes, though note Alistair's comment about having used **** in the
(fairly distant) past. As recently as 2000 I'd pretty much convinced
myself no bike of mine would ever use a dyanmo (now I have 3 that do...).

> Well - it's not just the market, also the legal framework. So one factor to
> consider is that for example in Germany it's forbidden to sell a bike for
> public road use that is not equipped with dynamo lighting. Exceptions are
> only light road bikes for sport use and mountain bikes. But the latter have
> to be clearly labelled as not made for use on public roads.

Been in place for a while though. If you introduced it here you'd just
drive people off the roads, I would guess :-(

> Well - a friend of mine has got an old Raleigh bike. I guess it's from the
> early 70s. It's still running fine. And to my surprise I recently
> discovered that it has a hub dynamo - from Sturmey Archer. According to
> Wikipedia it was called Dynohub. So there must have been a time when hub
> dynamos were more common in the UK.

Certainly, back in the 70s and before. Also at this time a typical bike
would have a Sturmey 3 (or maybe 5) speed hub gear. Cycling went out of
fashion in the UK as time went by and Mrs. Thatcher's "great car
economy" increasingly caught on. Bike sales were saved by the
introduction of the mountain bike, which suddenly became a must-have
leisure object and also became the de-facto Normal Everyday Bike for
many, but with no place for a dynohub. The alternatives were generally
Serious Tourers or Serious Racers, with little and no call for dynohubs
respectively, at least with the ten available models.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Nick Kew]

On 2 Mar 2007 12:28:53 GMT
Alistair Gunn <[email protected]> wrote:

> naked_draughtsman twisted the electrons to say:
> > I think they should also be more willing to give their green
> > clubcard points to people who use rucksacks and don't use carrier
> > bags in the first place. Sometimes they will do it if you mention
> > it to them but not automatically.
>
> The first time I used Tescos after they introduced the whole "green
> clubcard points" thing the cashier failed to count my panniers. I
> emailed the Tesco Clubcard customer service people with the details.
> After a bit of back and forth, I ended up with an extra 100 clubcard
> points as "compensation".

How can anything about a 'clubcard' based on junkmail be called 'green'?
I went to Tescos a coupla weeks ago, for the first time since they
introduced 'green'[1]. The cashier told me my 100-litre backpack
counted for several points, but that the fact that I hadn't come by
car[2] counted for nothing.

[1] Rant at
http://bahumbug.wordpress.com/2007/02/16/an-ugly-shade-of-green/
[2] I'd taken the bus, which runs twice a week. I can carry more
in the backpack than on the bike, and it's too far to go for
a mere fiftysomething quid shop.

--
not me guv

 

[Peter Clinch]

Nick Kew wrote:

> How can anything about a 'clubcard' based on junkmail be called 'green'?

It's all relative. A setup like Tescos isn't going to use sticks on its
customers when carrots are available, and a few "green" carrots is
better than nothing at all.

(Not really the point, but Clubcard isn't really "based on junkmail"
AFAICT, it's based on customer profiling and loyalty carrots.)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Chris Hills]

John Hearns wrote:
> My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
> brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.
> Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
> them.

My nearest supermarket is down quite a steep hill. I'd be buggered
trying to ride back with a load of shopping!

 

[John Hearns]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>
>> It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. If the supply would be there -
>> there
>> might be more demand.
>
> Yes, though note Alistair's comment about having used **** in the
> (fairly distant) past. As recently as 2000 I'd pretty much convinced
> myself no bike of mine would ever use a dyanmo (now I have 3 that do...).
>
A friend of mine recently got a Condor Fratello which has a front hub
dynamo. Nice bike. (Fratellos are a steel-framed audax type bike).

My dream Condor Moda has sprouted such a front hub. Would purists choke
at this one?

 

[Nick Kew]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 13:46:41 +0000
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:


> (Not really the point, but Clubcard isn't really "based on junkmail"
> AFAICT, it's based on customer profiling and loyalty carrots.)

Yebbut you don't need to inflict junkmail (full of deeply
unwanted offers) on customers to do a bit of profiling.
It caused me to junk my clubcard years ago.

C.f. the coop card - accumulate points, spend them on what
you want, no stupid junkmail or other such hassle.
They get all the data their computers can deal with.

--
not me guv

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting <[email protected]>:
>I've got a bike with SPD and a big with Look. Silly fool that I am
>took the Look one to my local Tesco on Monday. Those cleats don't half
>make a noise on hard supermarket floors!

Platform soles with cleat engagement mechanisms in. ISAGN.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Oneiros, March.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Chris Hills wrote:
> John Hearns wrote:
>> My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
>> brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.
>> Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
>> them.
>
> My nearest supermarket is down quite a steep hill. I'd be buggered
> trying to ride back with a load of shopping!

Get a mountain drive...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Andreas =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schulze-B=E4ing?=]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:58:45 +0000 schrieb Peter Clinch:

> Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:
>
>> It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. If the supply would be there - there
>> might be more demand.
>
> Yes, though note Alistair's comment about having used **** in the
> (fairly distant) past. As recently as 2000 I'd pretty much convinced
> myself no bike of mine would ever use a dyanmo (now I have 3 that do...).

I sticket to my Axa HR sidewall dynamo until 2003 - one of the best ones in
terms of value for money that can be found on almost all dutch bikes. It
served me well for about 9 years, except in worst winter weathers with ice
and autumn with slippery mixture of old leaves and rain. Since I renewed my
wheels anyway - I got a front wheel with hub dynamo then - best bike
investment ever.

>> ...in Germany it's forbidden to sell a bike for
>> public road use that is not equipped with dynamo lighting.
> Been in place for a while though. If you introduced it here you'd just
> drive people off the roads, I would guess :-(

Agreed - introducing new legislation would not really help. And for kids
mountainbikes with fitted lights might not look sufficiently "cool". Maybe
in the context of the cycle-to-work schemes it would be an interesting
marketing option for those companies offering the typical commuter bike.

>> Well - a friend of mine has got an old Raleigh bike. I guess it's from the
>> early 70s. It's still running fine. And to my surprise I recently
>> discovered that it has a hub dynamo - from Sturmey Archer. According to
>> Wikipedia it was called Dynohub. So there must have been a time when hub
>> dynamos were more common in the UK.
>
> Certainly, back in the 70s and before. Also at this time a typical bike
> would have a Sturmey 3 (or maybe 5) speed hub gear.

That surprised me most when I moved to the UK. I thought that in the rough
and wet weathers of this country I would see much more bikes with hub
gears, with very low maintenance needs. Instead of that I haven't seen a
single hub gear bike over here - apart from one commuter bike in Halfords.

> Cycling went out of
> fashion in the UK as time went by and Mrs. Thatcher's "great car
> economy" increasingly caught on.

Well the increasing car dependency and use is not exclusive to the UK. Even
in the Netherlands the number of trips made by bikes are constantly
decreasing and the importance of the car is increasing.

Andreas

 

[bookieb]

On Mar 2, 12:28 pm, Alistair Gunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> naked_draughtsman twisted the electrons to say:
>
> > I think they should also be more willing to give their green clubcard
> > points to people who use rucksacks and don't use carrier bags in the
> > first place.

<snip>

> The first time I used Tescos after they introduced the whole "green
> clubcard points" thing the cashier failed to count my panniers. I
> emailed the Tesco Clubcard customer service people with the details.

<snip>

Here in the Republic of Ireland, there's a statutory 20 cents charge
per plastic bag. This has been in place for the last number of years.
I believe that there's been a massive decrease in the number of
plastic bags consumed as a result.

It works well - everyone brings their bags (normally the "bag for
life" type sold by the supermarkets for about €1) with them to the
supermarkets. If you forget the bags (somthing you only do once or
twice), or just drop in for a few odds and ends on the way home, you
can still buy a bag or bags to get by.

However, most supermarkts don't like you to put your shopping into
your own bags/panniers/crates/bike hod as you shop, I think because it
makes shoplifiting so easy. You end up filling a wire basket or
trolley as you shop, then packing into your bags (even if using one of
the "self scan" checkouts.

A supermarket near us (Superquinn) has just introduced a "scan as you
shop" scheme, where you carry a portable scanner around with you as
you go. I think that there are occasional spot checks to keep people
honest. I must see if the'll let me put the panniers into the trolley
and fill them as I shop. It'll save double handling every item I buy.

Regards,

bookieb.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Andreas Schulze-Bäing wrote:

> Agreed - introducing new legislation would not really help. And for kids
> mountainbikes with fitted lights might not look sufficiently "cool". Maybe
> in the context of the cycle-to-work schemes it would be an interesting
> marketing option for those companies offering the typical commuter bike.

A few do appear. Orbit's City 7 is a very good example: hybrid
frame/bars with hub dyanmo & lights, 7 speed hub gear, (half) chaincase,
rack and mudguards all fitted as standard. People do seem to be
gradually (*very* gradually) moving this way. I think part of the
problem is the perception that since you can but a dual suspension
"mountain bike" (aka "bike shaped object") at Tesco then /obviously/ you
don't have to spend much for a Real Bike. That orbit is £700, so evan
at ~ £350 with the tax break it's more than a lot of people think you
should pay. The same people thinking this way would react in horror to
a suggestion that they buy whatever the current equivalent of a bottom
of the range Lada, or that Value OJ tastes the same as Tropicana
Premium, but they just won't apply the same logic to bikes.

> That surprised me most when I moved to the UK. I thought that in the rough
> and wet weathers of this country I would see much more bikes with hub
> gears, with very low maintenance needs. Instead of that I haven't seen a
> single hub gear bike over here - apart from one commuter bike in Halfords.

We're back to fashion, and the current trend is coming off the MTB boom
of the 80s. With /real/ MTBs you really do want derailleurs (unless
it's a Rohloff, but see above about costs!) so everyone had derailleurs.
If you don't know better (and many people don't) then /obviously/ more
gears are better than fewer gears, and people again associate hubs with
rather grot 3 speed Sturmeys from the 70s, so not much market for hubs
:-( I can sympathise to some extent: as a kid I couldn't wait for
"proper" gears (all 5 of them!) on a "racer", and once I had them then
hubs were strictly for grannies and girls. Ah well, as the Dalek said
as it climbed off the dustbin, we all make mistakes...

> Well the increasing car dependency and use is not exclusive to the UK. Even
> in the Netherlands the number of trips made by bikes are constantly
> decreasing and the importance of the car is increasing.

Be interesting to see how that trend continues now energy prices are
going up and congestion charges start appearing more. There is an
increasing awareness that The Great Car Economy is *not* sustainable or
desirable, and places like NL where there still is a cycling culture
will find it much easier to lower dependency on them than the UK.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

bookieb wrote:

> However, most supermarkts don't like you to put your shopping into
> your own bags/panniers/crates/bike hod as you shop, I think because it
> makes shoplifiting so easy.

The local ones aren't keen on me using bags, but no problem at all with
crates (in fact Tesco will sell you crates that they have specific
trolleys for).
I put my crate in a trolley, fill it up, fill it up again at the end of
the checkout belt and then simply lower the crate into the back of
freight bike, which is a lot easier than faffing with panniers and
rucksacks.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Andreas =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schulze-B=E4ing?=]

Am 2 Mar 2007 07:22:18 -0800 schrieb bookieb:

> However, most supermarkts don't like you to put your shopping into
> your own bags/panniers/crates/bike hod as you shop, I think because it
> makes shoplifiting so easy. You end up filling a wire basket or
> trolley as you shop, then packing into your bags (even if using one of
> the "self scan" checkouts.

Years ago I used a wire basket on my bike similar to this model:
<http://www.basil.nl/assortiment_detail.asp?titel_var=1&lang=3&id=1482>
For shopping you just take the basket in the the supermarket and put it on
your bike rack after.

Plus on the side of the rack instead of the panniers I had an unfoldable
model like this:
<http://www.basil.nl/assortiment_detail.asp?titel_var=1&lang=3&id=599>

Very useful indeed - have to get one of those again. Yet not good for rainy
weather, as it is not waterproof. Currently I sometimes mis-use my Ortlieb
Office Bag in case my rucksack is not big enough for the shopping.

Andreas

 

[Mark Thompson]

> Yebbut you don't need to inflict junkmail (full of deeply
> unwanted offers) on customers to do a bit of profiling.
> It caused me to junk my clubcard years ago.

Tesco gave me the option of opting out of the junkmail/offers when I signed
up to their loyalty card the other week.