Biros out, chaps



J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046

Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal

TWO big wheels in Reading are on a collision course in the
House of Commons over the wearing of cycle helmets.

Pro-helmet charity boss Angie Lee is looking forward to the
second reading of the Protective Headgear for Young Cyclists
Bill on Friday, April 23, which, if passed, could make cycle
helmet wearing for under-16s compulsory.

But Reading East MP Jane Griffiths – who has consistently
opposed any idea of legislating on cycle helmets – has
tabled an Early Day Motion rubbishing claims about their
effectiveness.

Her motion cites Transport Research Laboratory (TRL)
reports that promoting cycle helmets may lead to increased
injury rates.

And she calls on the Department of Transport to carry out
research on why increases in helmet wearing do not lead to a
reduction in head injuries and why countries like Holland,
with the lowest helmet-wearing rates, have the lowest
cycling injury rates.

Ms Griffiths told the Evening Post: “The TRL research that I
have read suggests that young cyclists might tend to take
more risks when they are wearing helmets.

“In Australia, where wearing cycle helmets is mandatory
in two states, there was a significant proportionate
increase in head injuries – that is to say the number of
people cycling decreased and the head injury levels
stayed the same.”

Ms Griffiths also said head injuries in cyclists were
extremely rare because they are normally knocked sideways,
injuring wrists or shoulders.

Children under four years old – who she says should not be
on the roads alone – are the only age group where head
injury is more common.

Ms Griffiths, who does not wear a helmet when she is
cycling, said cycle groups in Reading supported her stance.

Ms Lee said she was not surprised her local MP was not
supporting the bill promoted by the national charity she
founded, the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust.

Ms Lee set up the charity in Reading after seeing, through
her work as a theatre nurse, the devastating head injuries
resulting from cycling accidents among teenagers and young
children and was awarded an MBE for her work.

She said: “Jane Griffiths has always taken this view so it
is not a surprise now that she has tabled this motion.

“The trouble with accident statistics is that you must
compare like with like.

“It is true that people don’t wear cycle helmets in Holland
and cycle injury levels are low, but cyclists have a much
higher priority in that country.

“There are cycle lanes everywhere where the cyclists are
completely separated from the traffic.

“Also cyclists represent a far higher proportion of
the traffic.

“A better comparison would be Canada where wearing cycle
helmets for under 16-year-olds, which is what we are calling
for, has been the law since 1996.

“In Canada, there has been no decrease in the number of
children cycling but there has been a reduction in the
number of head injuries.”

She said the charity used research from TRL, based in
Crowthorne, and had not come across anything suggesting
cycle helmets were ineffective protection for children.

She said: “This early day motion is just muddying the
waters. The important issue is about protecting children
from injury.”

Cycling MP Peter Bottomley has tabled a spoiling amendment
to Ms Griffiths’s motion recognising that cycle helmets are
likely to reduce the incidence of deaths and head injuries
and calling on cyclists groups and the Department of
Transport to make it known widely.
--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
M

Msa

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
>
> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
>
blah blah fade to close.

Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
thread except
me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing of
a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

Just wondering.

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission
 
G

Gawnsoft

Guest
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
wrote (more or less):
>Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
>thread except
>me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
>
>
>Just wondering.

How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?

Oh, and do you mean the sort of motorcycle helmet that is
in use, or one that has it's protective shell and padding
removed until all that is left is a typical bicycle
helmet's worth?

Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
 
M

Msa

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA
> <[email protected]> wrote (more or less):
> >Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
> >thread except
> >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
> >
> >
> >Just wondering.
>
> How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
> young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?
>

I have no idea, but I shouldn't think it's very much..

>
> Oh, and do you mean the sort of motorcycle helmet that is
> in use, or one that has it's protective shell and padding
> removed until all that is left is a typical bicycle
> helmet's worth?

I mean the regulation motorcycle helmet, I don't think it's
legal to wear a protective shell that's had it's padding
removed on a motorcycle.

>
>
> Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
> Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
> links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
> http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
>

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
>thread except
>me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

It worked in America. States which repealed helmet laws had
better fatality records than those which didn't. Hardly a
surprise, since the lid law in the UK say motorcyclist
fatalities rise in relation to other road traffic.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
M

Msa

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
> thread except
> >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
>
> It worked in America. States which repealed helmet laws
> had better fatality records than those which didn't.
> Hardly a surprise, since the lid law in the UK say
> motorcyclist fatalities rise in relation to other road
> traffic.
>

I've read and re-read that and don't fully understand. When
you say hardly a surprise, are you saying that the states
that lifted the lid law were states that had less traffic?
Excuse me if I'm overlooking something obvious!

Was an opinion (or anything backed by stats) given on why
fatality records got better when the law was withdrawn?

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
MSA posted ...

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
>>
>> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
>>
> blah blah fade to close.
>
> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
> thread except
> me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

No. Motorcycle helmets are made of sterner stuff, and
wouldn't take lightly to being just tossed aside .. ;)

--
Paul

(8(|) Homer rocks .. ;)
 
C

Chris Malcolm

Guest
MSA <[email protected]> writes:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected]ft.com says...
>> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
>>
>> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
>>
>blah blah fade to close.

>Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
>thread except
>me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

Would make some activities legal that are currently
annoyingly illegal, such as:

Pottering along to the beach in bathing gear;

Pottering down to the shops for something you forgot;

Listening for odd noises from the engine;

Giving a friend without a helmet a lift;

Riding home after someone has stolen your helmet.

All of which activities can be safely accomplished by
limiting one's risks in accordance with one's increased
vulnerability.

I'm reminded of that very old motorycling stunt team who
were given a special dispensation not to wear helmets for
their stunt rides (on private land) because they never had.
They were very old men who rode very old motorcycles at
vintage bike rallies, doing "flying pyramids" and the like.
They were a motorcycle stunt team who had started before the
second World War and claimed that starting to wear helmets
would put them off their stride, reduce sensitivity to clues
of things going wrong, etc.. They refused to perform with
helmets. Journalists always wanted to ask them if they'd
ever had any accidents due to not wearing helmets. They
loved being asked that sort of question.

"Oh, yes. Poor old Andy! If he'd been wearing a helmet he'd
probably still be with us today."

"What happened to him?"

"Bullet from a a German sniper."
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 
M

Msa

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> MSA posted ...
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
> >>
> >> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
> >>
> > blah blah fade to close.
> >
> > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
> > thread except
> > me), what sort of views are around on whether the
> > wearing of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made
> > optional?
>
> No. Motorcycle helmets are made of sterner stuff, and
> wouldn't take lightly to being just tossed aside .. ;)
>
>

OK fair comment. So could we say that if bicycle helmets
were made of sterner stuff but were just as light as they
are currently, then more people would wear them? I did see
you emoticon, but it's a fair point raised anyway!

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Gawnsoft posted ...

> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA
> <[email protected]> wrote (more or less):
>> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
>> thread except
>> me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
>> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
>>
>>
>> Just wondering.
>
> How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
> young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?

A hell of a lot of mine and my kids .. we ride Motorcycle
Trials .. but we still wear a helmet. Admittedly it's a
helmet with a hell of a better shell and padding than any
cycle helmet ('cept maybe some DH specific) I've ever
seen .. ;)

> Oh, and do you mean the sort of motorcycle helmet that is
> in use, or one that has it's protective shell and padding
> removed until all that is left is a typical bicycle
> helmet's worth?

I know of no-one who rides wearing helmets like that, and I
can't remember seeing ever anyone.

--
Paul

(8(|) Homer rocks .. ;)
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:28:09 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>> It worked in America. States which repealed helmet laws
>> had better fatality records than those which didn't.
>> Hardly a surprise, since the lid law in the UK say
>> motorcyclist fatalities rise in relation to other road
>> traffic.

>I've read and re-read that and don't fully understand. When
>you say hardly a surprise, are you saying that the states
>that lifted the lid law were states that had less traffic?
>Excuse me if I'm overlooking something obvious!

'Scuse my lack of clarity. I mean: the lid law led to a
significant worsening of motorcyclist safety in the UK, so
it is harldy a surprise that the safety record of
motorcyclists improved in those US states which repealed
the lid law.

>Was an opinion (or anything backed by stats) given on why
>fatality records got better when the law was withdrawn?

An opinion was offered: it was the usual one. Risk
compensation.

May I suggest that you peruse Risk by John Adams? I found it
most illuminating, and very readable.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
M

Msa

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> May I suggest that you peruse Risk by John Adams? I found
> it most illuminating, and very readable.
>

Must admit, I don't usually 'do helmet threads' but I might
just take you up on that advice!

Oh no, a 'helmet thread convert'!

--
Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
transmission
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
MSA posted ...

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> MSA posted ...
>>
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
>>>>
>>>> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
>>>>
>>> blah blah fade to close.
>>>
>>> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
>>> thread except
>>> me), what sort of views are around on whether the
>>> wearing of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made
>>> optional?
>>
>> No. Motorcycle helmets are made of sterner stuff, and
>> wouldn't take lightly to being just tossed aside .. ;)
>>
>>
>
> OK fair comment. So could we say that if bicycle helmets
> were made of sterner stuff but were just as light as they
> are currently, then more people would wear them? I did see
> you emoticon, but it's a fair point raised anyway!

Good point, and I guess I dunno. I already wear a cycle
helmet ... Just a 'normal' £20 Halfords jobbie .. Dunno how
many I've had as the others have broken in crashes, I never
seem to keep them long enough to wear them out .. ;)

They seem to work for me, and I tend crash far more on the
cycle than on the motorcycle, despite the greater padding
and 'safety kit' I wear while riding the motorbike.

--
Paul

(8(|) Homer rocks .. ;)
 
R

Richard Corfiel

Guest
On 2004-03-10, Gawnsoft <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
> young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?
>

I'd hope that on private land, the law wouldn't be enforced.

How would it be enforced anyway? If the policeman sees a 10
year old without helmet, and we don't seem to have community
policing where the policeman would know the child and the
parents anymore, would the child be charged? Will we see
parents being fined for children forgetting their helmets?

I think a lot worse goes unpunished, so this may end up
being quite ineffective. It may also go the same way as that
idea tabled when I was about 10 about all children under 11
using child seats in cars.

Personally, I wear a helmet. I've even been used as an
example when riding the trike, as kids tend to notice it.
I've heared parents say things like "Look at that good
cyclist, he's wearing a helmet". Its not inconvenient to use
at all, so may end up having benefit which outweights its
cost. Also, I think most kids nowadays use them anyway. On
the other hand, mandating them may add a bit of a stigma to
cycling. Pity - kids do far more dangerous things.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot
com _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street, _/
_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.
 
M

Martin Bulmer

Guest
In news:[email protected],
Richard Corfield <[email protected]> expounded sagaciously:
> On 2004-03-10, Gawnsoft
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
>> young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?
>>
>
> I'd hope that on private land, the law wouldn't be
> enforced.
>
> How would it be enforced anyway? If the policeman sees a
> 10 year old without helmet, and we don't seem to have
> community policing where the policeman would know the
> child and the parents anymore, would the child be charged?
> Will we see parents being fined for children forgetting
> their helmets?
>
> I think a lot worse goes unpunished, so this may end up
> being quite ineffective. It may also go the same way as
> that idea tabled when I was about 10 about all children
> under 11 using child seats in cars.
>
> Personally, I wear a helmet. I've even been used as an
> example when riding the trike, as kids tend to notice
> it. I've heared parents say things like "Look at that
> good cyclist, he's wearing a helmet". Its not
> inconvenient to use at all, so may end up having benefit
> which outweights its cost. Also, I think most kids
> nowadays use them anyway. On the other hand, mandating
> them may add a bit of a stigma to cycling. Pity - kids
> do far more dangerous things.
>
> - Richard

Now my kids have left home, I have just about persuaded my
wife that helmet-wearing should now be optional for me, as I
no longer have to set an example, and the kids don't ride
anyway. So, as a baldy, I've been thinking about what type
of all-weather protection I need. Something insulating, yet
ventilated, something that doesn't soak up the rain, but
helps to keep it off. Something with a peak, to keep the sun
out of my eyes, and with a high sun protection factor for my
bald pate. Something with a strap, so it doesn't blow off,
and something that doesn't look too out of place on a bike.
I've been racking my brains, but I reckon 8 years of helmet
wearing must have affected my brain, as I just can't
envisage the ideal chapeau.
--

Martin Bulmer

Pie Conservation Threat
 
C

Colin McKenzie

Guest
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> Ms Griffiths also said head injuries in cyclists were
> extremely rare because they are normally knocked sideways,
> injuring wrists or shoulders.
>
> Children under four years old – who she says should not be
> on the roads alone – are the only age group where head
> injury is more common.
>
So give them helmets - if they are on 2-wheelers AND can
ride faster than they can run. I have yet to see a toddler
in a running helmet, but they fall over a lot.

Colin McKenzie
 
B

Biochemist

Guest
> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
> thread except
> me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

i think not, but maybe allowing darkened visors would be a
good idea (avoiding being blinded by the sun on a bright day
(as much as that happens)).
 
M

Mark Thompson

Guest
> > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
> > thread except
> > me), what sort of views are around on whether the
> > wearing of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made
> > optional?
>
>
> i think not, but maybe allowing darkened visors would be a
> good idea (avoiding being blinded by the sun on a bright
> day (as much as that happens)).

AFAIK they can have darkened visors, but only removable
ones so they can replace 'em with regular ones when it
starts to get dark.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-
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Virus Database: 398 - Release Date: 10/03/2004
 
A

Ambrose Nankive

Guest
In news:[email protected],
Trevor Barton <[email protected]> typed:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:05:08 GMT, Simon Brooke wrote: On
> the other hand again, if the helmet doesn't shatter, the
> coefficient of friction between the shiny covering plastic
> and the road surface is lower, and I'd think it was
> substantially lower at least till the point when the
> plastic broke, or conversly when the skin broke and blood
> and stuff started to lubricate the interface.

Not in my case, or the majority of men under 40, or the vast
majority of women, who have an incredibly low friction
covering over the scalp with built in thermal control and
sun protection.

Seriously, see how easy it is to slide your finger over a
hair covered head as compared to a nice shiny plastic
helmet. I think you'll find it's easy to make the finger
stick on the plastic and hard to stop it sliding around
on the hair.

A
 
J

James Hodson

Guest
<[email protected]> wrote:

>They seem to work for me, and I tend crash far more on the
>cycle than on the motorcycle, despite the greater padding
>and 'safety kit' I wear while riding the motorbike.

As SMIDSY is often given excuse for a near miss between cars
and cycles, I believe the enforcement of existing laws
regarding lights would be a better way to go.

James