Biros out, chaps

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Just Zis Guy, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046

    Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal

    TWO big wheels in Reading are on a collision course in the
    House of Commons over the wearing of cycle helmets.

    Pro-helmet charity boss Angie Lee is looking forward to the
    second reading of the Protective Headgear for Young Cyclists
    Bill on Friday, April 23, which, if passed, could make cycle
    helmet wearing for under-16s compulsory.

    But Reading East MP Jane Griffiths – who has consistently
    opposed any idea of legislating on cycle helmets – has
    tabled an Early Day Motion rubbishing claims about their
    effectiveness.

    Her motion cites Transport Research Laboratory (TRL)
    reports that promoting cycle helmets may lead to increased
    injury rates.

    And she calls on the Department of Transport to carry out
    research on why increases in helmet wearing do not lead to a
    reduction in head injuries and why countries like Holland,
    with the lowest helmet-wearing rates, have the lowest
    cycling injury rates.

    Ms Griffiths told the Evening Post: “The TRL research that I
    have read suggests that young cyclists might tend to take
    more risks when they are wearing helmets.

    “In Australia, where wearing cycle helmets is mandatory
    in two states, there was a significant proportionate
    increase in head injuries – that is to say the number of
    people cycling decreased and the head injury levels
    stayed the same.”

    Ms Griffiths also said head injuries in cyclists were
    extremely rare because they are normally knocked sideways,
    injuring wrists or shoulders.

    Children under four years old – who she says should not be
    on the roads alone – are the only age group where head
    injury is more common.

    Ms Griffiths, who does not wear a helmet when she is
    cycling, said cycle groups in Reading supported her stance.

    Ms Lee said she was not surprised her local MP was not
    supporting the bill promoted by the national charity she
    founded, the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust.

    Ms Lee set up the charity in Reading after seeing, through
    her work as a theatre nurse, the devastating head injuries
    resulting from cycling accidents among teenagers and young
    children and was awarded an MBE for her work.

    She said: “Jane Griffiths has always taken this view so it
    is not a surprise now that she has tabled this motion.

    “The trouble with accident statistics is that you must
    compare like with like.

    “It is true that people don’t wear cycle helmets in Holland
    and cycle injury levels are low, but cyclists have a much
    higher priority in that country.

    “There are cycle lanes everywhere where the cyclists are
    completely separated from the traffic.

    “Also cyclists represent a far higher proportion of
    the traffic.

    “A better comparison would be Canada where wearing cycle
    helmets for under 16-year-olds, which is what we are calling
    for, has been the law since 1996.

    “In Canada, there has been no decrease in the number of
    children cycling but there has been a reduction in the
    number of head injuries.”

    She said the charity used research from TRL, based in
    Crowthorne, and had not come across anything suggesting
    cycle helmets were ineffective protection for children.

    She said: “This early day motion is just muddying the
    waters. The important issue is about protecting children
    from injury.”

    Cycling MP Peter Bottomley has tabled a spoiling amendment
    to Ms Griffiths’s motion recognising that cycle helmets are
    likely to reduce the incidence of deaths and head injuries
    and calling on cyclists groups and the Department of
    Transport to make it known widely.
    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
    Tags:


  2. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
    >
    > Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
    >
    blah blah fade to close.

    Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    thread except
    me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing of
    a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

    Just wondering.

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
    volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
    transmission
     
  3. Gawnsoft

    Gawnsoft Guest

    On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
    wrote (more or less):
    >Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    >thread except
    >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
    >
    >
    >Just wondering.

    How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
    young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?

    Oh, and do you mean the sort of motorcycle helmet that is
    in use, or one that has it's protective shell and padding
    removed until all that is left is a typical bicycle
    helmet's worth?

    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
    links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
     
  4. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA
    > <[email protected]> wrote (more or less):
    > >Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    > >thread except
    > >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
    > >
    > >
    > >Just wondering.
    >
    > How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
    > young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?
    >

    I have no idea, but I shouldn't think it's very much..

    >
    > Oh, and do you mean the sort of motorcycle helmet that is
    > in use, or one that has it's protective shell and padding
    > removed until all that is left is a typical bicycle
    > helmet's worth?

    I mean the regulation motorcycle helmet, I don't think it's
    legal to wear a protective shell that's had it's padding
    removed on a motorcycle.

    >
    >
    > Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    > Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
    > links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    > http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
    >

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
    volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
    transmission
     
  5. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
    wrote in message <[email protected]>:

    >Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    >thread except
    >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

    It worked in America. States which repealed helmet laws had
    better fatality records than those which didn't. Hardly a
    surprise, since the lid law in the UK say motorcyclist
    fatalities rise in relation to other road traffic.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  6. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    > thread except
    > >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
    >
    > It worked in America. States which repealed helmet laws
    > had better fatality records than those which didn't.
    > Hardly a surprise, since the lid law in the UK say
    > motorcyclist fatalities rise in relation to other road
    > traffic.
    >

    I've read and re-read that and don't fully understand. When
    you say hardly a surprise, are you saying that the states
    that lifted the lid law were states that had less traffic?
    Excuse me if I'm overlooking something obvious!

    Was an opinion (or anything backed by stats) given on why
    fatality records got better when the law was withdrawn?

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
    volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
    transmission
     
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    MSA posted ...

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    >> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
    >>
    >> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
    >>
    > blah blah fade to close.
    >
    > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    > thread except
    > me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

    No. Motorcycle helmets are made of sterner stuff, and
    wouldn't take lightly to being just tossed aside .. ;)

    --
    Paul

    (8(|) Homer rocks .. ;)
     
  8. MSA <[email protected]> writes:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >[email protected] says...
    >> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
    >>
    >> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
    >>
    >blah blah fade to close.

    >Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    >thread except
    >me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

    Would make some activities legal that are currently
    annoyingly illegal, such as:

    Pottering along to the beach in bathing gear;

    Pottering down to the shops for something you forgot;

    Listening for odd noises from the engine;

    Giving a friend without a helmet a lift;

    Riding home after someone has stolen your helmet.

    All of which activities can be safely accomplished by
    limiting one's risks in accordance with one's increased
    vulnerability.

    I'm reminded of that very old motorycling stunt team who
    were given a special dispensation not to wear helmets for
    their stunt rides (on private land) because they never had.
    They were very old men who rode very old motorcycles at
    vintage bike rallies, doing "flying pyramids" and the like.
    They were a motorcycle stunt team who had started before the
    second World War and claimed that starting to wear helmets
    would put them off their stride, reduce sensitivity to clues
    of things going wrong, etc.. They refused to perform with
    helmets. Journalists always wanted to ask them if they'd
    ever had any accidents due to not wearing helmets. They
    loved being asked that sort of question.

    "Oh, yes. Poor old Andy! If he'd been wearing a helmet he'd
    probably still be with us today."

    "What happened to him?"

    "Bullet from a a German sniper."
    --
    Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
  9. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]i-berlin.de>,
    [email protected] says...
    > MSA posted ...
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > [email protected] says...
    > >> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
    > >>
    > >> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
    > >>
    > > blah blah fade to close.
    > >
    > > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    > > thread except
    > > me), what sort of views are around on whether the
    > > wearing of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made
    > > optional?
    >
    > No. Motorcycle helmets are made of sterner stuff, and
    > wouldn't take lightly to being just tossed aside .. ;)
    >
    >

    OK fair comment. So could we say that if bicycle helmets
    were made of sterner stuff but were just as light as they
    are currently, then more people would wear them? I did see
    you emoticon, but it's a fair point raised anyway!

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
    volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
    transmission
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Gawnsoft posted ...

    > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:00:42 -0000, MSA
    > <[email protected]> wrote (more or less):
    >> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    >> thread except
    >> me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    >> of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?
    >>
    >>
    >> Just wondering.
    >
    > How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
    > young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?

    A hell of a lot of mine and my kids .. we ride Motorcycle
    Trials .. but we still wear a helmet. Admittedly it's a
    helmet with a hell of a better shell and padding than any
    cycle helmet ('cept maybe some DH specific) I've ever
    seen .. ;)

    > Oh, and do you mean the sort of motorcycle helmet that is
    > in use, or one that has it's protective shell and padding
    > removed until all that is left is a typical bicycle
    > helmet's worth?

    I know of no-one who rides wearing helmets like that, and I
    can't remember seeing ever anyone.

    --
    Paul

    (8(|) Homer rocks .. ;)
     
  11. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:28:09 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
    wrote in message <[email protected]>:

    >> It worked in America. States which repealed helmet laws
    >> had better fatality records than those which didn't.
    >> Hardly a surprise, since the lid law in the UK say
    >> motorcyclist fatalities rise in relation to other road
    >> traffic.

    >I've read and re-read that and don't fully understand. When
    >you say hardly a surprise, are you saying that the states
    >that lifted the lid law were states that had less traffic?
    >Excuse me if I'm overlooking something obvious!

    'Scuse my lack of clarity. I mean: the lid law led to a
    significant worsening of motorcyclist safety in the UK, so
    it is harldy a surprise that the safety record of
    motorcyclists improved in those US states which repealed
    the lid law.

    >Was an opinion (or anything backed by stats) given on why
    >fatality records got better when the law was withdrawn?

    An opinion was offered: it was the usual one. Risk
    compensation.

    May I suggest that you peruse Risk by John Adams? I found it
    most illuminating, and very readable.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  12. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > May I suggest that you peruse Risk by John Adams? I found
    > it most illuminating, and very readable.
    >

    Must admit, I don't usually 'do helmet threads' but I might
    just take you up on that advice!

    Oh no, a 'helmet thread convert'!

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not
    volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during
    transmission
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    MSA posted ...

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    >> MSA posted ...
    >>
    >>> In article <[email protected]>,
    >>> [email protected] says...
    >>>> http://www.getreading.co.uk/story.asp?intid=9046
    >>>>
    >>>> Opposition: from Griffiths to proposal
    >>>>
    >>> blah blah fade to close.
    >>>
    >>> Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    >>> thread except
    >>> me), what sort of views are around on whether the
    >>> wearing of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made
    >>> optional?
    >>
    >> No. Motorcycle helmets are made of sterner stuff, and
    >> wouldn't take lightly to being just tossed aside .. ;)
    >>
    >>
    >
    > OK fair comment. So could we say that if bicycle helmets
    > were made of sterner stuff but were just as light as they
    > are currently, then more people would wear them? I did see
    > you emoticon, but it's a fair point raised anyway!

    Good point, and I guess I dunno. I already wear a cycle
    helmet ... Just a 'normal' £20 Halfords jobbie .. Dunno how
    many I've had as the others have broken in crashes, I never
    seem to keep them long enough to wear them out .. ;)

    They seem to work for me, and I tend crash far more on the
    cycle than on the motorcycle, despite the greater padding
    and 'safety kit' I wear while riding the motorbike.

    --
    Paul

    (8(|) Homer rocks .. ;)
     
  14. On 2004-03-10, Gawnsoft <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
    > young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?
    >

    I'd hope that on private land, the law wouldn't be enforced.

    How would it be enforced anyway? If the policeman sees a 10
    year old without helmet, and we don't seem to have community
    policing where the policeman would know the child and the
    parents anymore, would the child be charged? Will we see
    parents being fined for children forgetting their helmets?

    I think a lot worse goes unpunished, so this may end up
    being quite ineffective. It may also go the same way as that
    idea tabled when I was about 10 about all children under 11
    using child seats in cars.

    Personally, I wear a helmet. I've even been used as an
    example when riding the trike, as kids tend to notice it.
    I've heared parents say things like "Look at that good
    cyclist, he's wearing a helmet". Its not inconvenient to use
    at all, so may end up having benefit which outweights its
    cost. Also, I think most kids nowadays use them anyway. On
    the other hand, mandating them may add a bit of a stigma to
    cycling. Pity - kids do far more dangerous things.

    - Richard

    --
    _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot
    com _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street, _/
    _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.
     
  15. In news:[email protected],
    Richard Corfield <[email protected]> expounded sagaciously:
    > On 2004-03-10, Gawnsoft
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> How much motorbiking is done at walking pace or less by
    >> young children in the privacy of their parent's garden?
    >>
    >
    > I'd hope that on private land, the law wouldn't be
    > enforced.
    >
    > How would it be enforced anyway? If the policeman sees a
    > 10 year old without helmet, and we don't seem to have
    > community policing where the policeman would know the
    > child and the parents anymore, would the child be charged?
    > Will we see parents being fined for children forgetting
    > their helmets?
    >
    > I think a lot worse goes unpunished, so this may end up
    > being quite ineffective. It may also go the same way as
    > that idea tabled when I was about 10 about all children
    > under 11 using child seats in cars.
    >
    > Personally, I wear a helmet. I've even been used as an
    > example when riding the trike, as kids tend to notice
    > it. I've heared parents say things like "Look at that
    > good cyclist, he's wearing a helmet". Its not
    > inconvenient to use at all, so may end up having benefit
    > which outweights its cost. Also, I think most kids
    > nowadays use them anyway. On the other hand, mandating
    > them may add a bit of a stigma to cycling. Pity - kids
    > do far more dangerous things.
    >
    > - Richard

    Now my kids have left home, I have just about persuaded my
    wife that helmet-wearing should now be optional for me, as I
    no longer have to set an example, and the kids don't ride
    anyway. So, as a baldy, I've been thinking about what type
    of all-weather protection I need. Something insulating, yet
    ventilated, something that doesn't soak up the rain, but
    helps to keep it off. Something with a peak, to keep the sun
    out of my eyes, and with a high sun protection factor for my
    bald pate. Something with a strap, so it doesn't blow off,
    and something that doesn't look too out of place on a bike.
    I've been racking my brains, but I reckon 8 years of helmet
    wearing must have affected my brain, as I just can't
    envisage the ideal chapeau.
    --

    Martin Bulmer

    Pie Conservation Threat
     
  16. Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

    > Ms Griffiths also said head injuries in cyclists were
    > extremely rare because they are normally knocked sideways,
    > injuring wrists or shoulders.
    >
    > Children under four years old – who she says should not be
    > on the roads alone – are the only age group where head
    > injury is more common.
    >
    So give them helmets - if they are on 2-wheelers AND can
    ride faster than they can run. I have yet to see a toddler
    in a running helmet, but they fall over a lot.

    Colin McKenzie
     
  17. Biochemist

    Biochemist Guest

    > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    > thread except
    > me), what sort of views are around on whether the wearing
    > of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made optional?

    i think not, but maybe allowing darkened visors would be a
    good idea (avoiding being blinded by the sun on a bright day
    (as much as that happens)).
     
  18. > > Out of interest (and seeing as everyone loves a helmet
    > > thread except
    > > me), what sort of views are around on whether the
    > > wearing of a helmet on a motorcycle should be made
    > > optional?
    >
    >
    > i think not, but maybe allowing darkened visors would be a
    > good idea (avoiding being blinded by the sun on a bright
    > day (as much as that happens)).

    AFAIK they can have darkened visors, but only removable
    ones so they can replace 'em with regular ones when it
    starts to get dark.

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-
    virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.619 /
    Virus Database: 398 - Release Date: 10/03/2004
     
  19. In news:[email protected],
    Trevor Barton <[email protected]> typed:
    > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:05:08 GMT, Simon Brooke wrote: On
    > the other hand again, if the helmet doesn't shatter, the
    > coefficient of friction between the shiny covering plastic
    > and the road surface is lower, and I'd think it was
    > substantially lower at least till the point when the
    > plastic broke, or conversly when the skin broke and blood
    > and stuff started to lubricate the interface.

    Not in my case, or the majority of men under 40, or the vast
    majority of women, who have an incredibly low friction
    covering over the scalp with built in thermal control and
    sun protection.

    Seriously, see how easy it is to slide your finger over a
    hair covered head as compared to a nice shiny plastic
    helmet. I think you'll find it's easy to make the finger
    stick on the plastic and hard to stop it sliding around
    on the hair.

    A
     
  20. James Hodson

    James Hodson Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >They seem to work for me, and I tend crash far more on the
    >cycle than on the motorcycle, despite the greater padding
    >and 'safety kit' I wear while riding the motorbike.

    As SMIDSY is often given excuse for a near miss between cars
    and cycles, I believe the enforcement of existing laws
    regarding lights would be a better way to go.

    James
     
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