bladed spokes and crosswinds

[Javier]

Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
traditional spokes.

Javier

 

[Bill Sornson]

Javier wrote:
> Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
> set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
> that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
> used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
> traditional spokes.

It ain't just you.

 

[Chris M]

On Apr 16, 3:58 pm, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
> set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
> that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
> used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
> traditional spokes.
>
> Javier

I doubt the spokes are responsible. If there are any equipment caused
differences to the way your bike handles in the wind, it is more
likely that either your rim depth and or the frame and fork geometry
is more responsible than any influence your spokes have on the
difference you sense.

After many years of swapping wheels of many types on various
framesets, I can say that with a very "nervous handling" frameset you
won't notice wind blowing the front wheel around until you get close
to 30mm or more and that is if it is fairly light as well. Factors
influencing this are rim depth, rim weight, frame and fork geometry
and of course speed of the bike and of the cross-wind. I have 3 front
wheels that are different only in the spokes. There has never been any
difference in the way they handle between the 3, and they are only
slightly more influenced by cross-winds than a 27mm and a traditional
box section, 32 1.8/2.0 round spokes.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Apr 16, 4:23 pm, "Chris M" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 3:58 pm, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
> > set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
> > that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
> > used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
> > traditional spokes.
>
> > Javier
>
> I doubt the spokes are responsible. If there are any equipment caused
> differences to the way your bike handles in the wind, it is more
> likely that either your rim depth and or the frame and fork geometry
> is more responsible than any influence your spokes have on the
> difference you sense.
>
> After many years of swapping wheels of many types on various
> framesets, I can say that with a very "nervous handling" frameset you
> won't notice wind blowing the front wheel around until you get close
> to 30mm or more and that is if it is fairly light as well. Factors
> influencing this are rim depth, rim weight, frame and fork geometry
> and of course speed of the bike and of the cross-wind. I have 3 front
> wheels that are different only in the spokes. There has never been any
> difference in the way they handle between the 3, and they are only
> slightly more influenced by cross-winds than a 27mm and a traditional
> box section, 32 1.8/2.0 round spokes.

Maybe but we have had 3 cuestomers with twitchy, shaking frames, in
gusty winds..all had Krysiriums..replace with a front round spoke
wheel..problem gone.

Anecdotal certainly but seems the fat spokes have somethin to do with
it.

 

[Bill Sornson]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> On Apr 16, 4:23 pm, "Chris M" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Apr 16, 3:58 pm, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I
>>> have a set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've
>>> noticed that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more
>>> that when I used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos
>>> wheels with traditional spokes.
>>
>>> Javier
>>
>> I doubt the spokes are responsible. If there are any equipment caused
>> differences to the way your bike handles in the wind, it is more
>> likely that either your rim depth and or the frame and fork geometry
>> is more responsible than any influence your spokes have on the
>> difference you sense.
>>
>> After many years of swapping wheels of many types on various
>> framesets, I can say that with a very "nervous handling" frameset you
>> won't notice wind blowing the front wheel around until you get close
>> to 30mm or more and that is if it is fairly light as well. Factors
>> influencing this are rim depth, rim weight, frame and fork geometry
>> and of course speed of the bike and of the cross-wind. I have 3 front
>> wheels that are different only in the spokes. There has never been
>> any difference in the way they handle between the 3, and they are
>> only slightly more influenced by cross-winds than a 27mm and a
>> traditional box section, 32 1.8/2.0 round spokes.
>
> Maybe but we have had 3 cuestomers with twitchy, shaking frames, in
> gusty winds..all had Krysiriums..replace with a front round spoke
> wheel..problem gone.
>
> Anecdotal certainly but seems the fat spokes have somethin to do with
> it.

I have two road wheelsets -- Bontrager Race Lites (low count bladed spokes)
and Velomax Ascent IIs (low-count round spokes). I can definitely feel the
difference in crosswind conditions: the Bontys are harder to control (but
not dangerously so, IME). Rim depths are virtually identical.

Bill "capable of going slow on 'em all" S.

 

[Javier]

On Apr 16, 7:56 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 4:23 pm, "Chris M" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Apr 16, 3:58 pm, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>> Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I
> >>> have a set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've
> >>> noticed that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more
> >>> that when I used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos
> >>> wheels with traditional spokes.
>
> >>> Javier
>
> >> I doubt the spokes are responsible. If there are any equipment caused
> >> differences to the way your bike handles in the wind, it is more
> >> likely that either your rim depth and or the frame and fork geometry
> >> is more responsible than any influence your spokes have on the
> >> difference you sense.
>
> >> After many years of swapping wheels of many types on various
> >> framesets, I can say that with a very "nervous handling" frameset you
> >> won't notice wind blowing the front wheel around until you get close
> >> to 30mm or more and that is if it is fairly light as well. Factors
> >> influencing this are rim depth, rim weight, frame and fork geometry
> >> and of course speed of the bike and of the cross-wind. I have 3 front
> >> wheels that are different only in the spokes. There has never been
> >> any difference in the way they handle between the 3, and they are
> >> only slightly more influenced by cross-winds than a 27mm and a
> >> traditional box section, 32 1.8/2.0 round spokes.
>
> > Maybe but we have had 3 cuestomers with twitchy, shaking frames, in
> > gusty winds..all had Krysiriums..replace with a front round spoke
> > wheel..problem gone.
>
> > Anecdotal certainly but seems the fat spokes have somethin to do with
> > it.
>
> I have two road wheelsets -- Bontrager Race Lites (low count bladed spokes)
> and Velomax Ascent IIs (low-count round spokes). I can definitely feel the
> difference in crosswind conditions: the Bontys are harder to control (but
> not dangerously so, IME). Rim depths are virtually identical.
>
> Bill "capable of going slow on 'em all" S.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill you hit the nail on the head, my bontragers are hard to control
in the crosswinds. I'm going to swap my casset onto my Mavics and see
if there's a difference.

Javier

 

[Kinky Cowboy]

On 16 Apr 2007 15:58:06 -0700, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
>set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
>that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
>used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
>traditional spokes.
>
>Javier

I think bladed spokes tend to stall in cross winds, which dramatically
increases the drag component across the wheel. This is one reason why
the good wheel makers use elliptical spokes like Sapim CX-Rays - they
have a much larger stall angle than a square cornered blade, and only
marginally higher drag in zero cross wind conditions.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

 

[jim beam]

Kinky Cowboy wrote:
> On 16 Apr 2007 15:58:06 -0700, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
>> set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
>> that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
>> used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
>> traditional spokes.
>>
>> Javier
>
> I think bladed spokes tend to stall in cross winds, which dramatically
> increases the drag component across the wheel. This is one reason why
> the good wheel makers use elliptical spokes like Sapim CX-Rays - they
> have a much larger stall angle than a square cornered blade, and only
> marginally higher drag in zero cross wind conditions.
>
> Kinky Cowboy*
>
> *Batteries not included
> May contain traces of nuts
> Your milage may vary
>

interesting - i think you may have nailed it.

 

[jim beam]

Javier wrote:
> Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
> set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
> that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
> used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
> traditional spokes.
>
> Javier
>
mavic cosmos are the best crosswind wheels i've ever used.

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Apr 16, 4:23 pm, "Chris M" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Apr 16, 3:58 pm, "Javier" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Is it just me or are bladed spokes troublesome in crosswinds? I have a
>> > set of stock Bontrager Race wheels on my Trek 5200 and I've noticed
>> > that when a cross wind hits I get pushed around alot more that when I
>> > used to ride my other road bike that had Mavic Cosmos wheels with
>> > traditional spokes.
>>
>> > Javier
>>
>> I doubt the spokes are responsible. If there are any equipment caused
>> differences to the way your bike handles in the wind, it is more
>> likely that either your rim depth and or the frame and fork geometry
>> is more responsible than any influence your spokes have on the
>> difference you sense.
>>
>> After many years of swapping wheels of many types on various
>> framesets, I can say that with a very "nervous handling" frameset you
>> won't notice wind blowing the front wheel around until you get close
>> to 30mm or more and that is if it is fairly light as well. Factors
>> influencing this are rim depth, rim weight, frame and fork geometry
>> and of course speed of the bike and of the cross-wind. I have 3 front
>> wheels that are different only in the spokes. There has never been any
>> difference in the way they handle between the 3, and they are only
>> slightly more influenced by cross-winds than a 27mm and a traditional
>> box section, 32 1.8/2.0 round spokes.
>
>Maybe but we have had 3 cuestomers with twitchy, shaking frames, in
>gusty winds..all had Krysiriums..replace with a front round spoke
>wheel..problem gone.
>
>Anecdotal certainly but seems the fat spokes have somethin to do with
>it.

I agree with Peter - I can feel a big difference between any one of a
number of my "regular road wheels" and the wheels with bladed spokes
(though they also tend to have deeper rims, which would have an effect
as well). OTOH, I don't notice the effect of crosswinds much on my
Open Pro wheels with round spokes and 35mm tires (which give them as
tall a profile as my deep-rim wheels).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Apr 16, 7:10 pm, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think bladed spokes tend to stall in cross winds, which dramatically
> increases the drag component across the wheel. This is one reason why
> the good wheel makers use elliptical spokes like Sapim CX-Rays - they
> have a much larger stall angle than a square cornered blade, and only
> marginally higher drag in zero cross wind conditions.

Except that oval spokes (like CX-Rays) are what we are talking
about... I think. Flatish blades are rarely used except for the fat
aluminum ones on Ksyriums. Oval spokes will stall as well, but the
most side force will be generated when they are providing *lift*. The
same goes for the rim profile. So if the wind is effecting your
aeroish wheels, take some comfort in knowing that the drag is lower as
well. Time trialist know this, but for daily riding in windy
conditions it probably isn't worth the handling hassle.

BTW, I've been riding a 18h 30mm front wheel with CX-Rays in 30+ mph
winds lately at speeds up to 60mph and haven't had any scary moments
yet.

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Apr 16, 7:10 pm, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think bladed spokes tend to stall in cross winds, which dramatically
> increases the drag component across the wheel. This is one reason why
> the good wheel makers use elliptical spokes like Sapim CX-Rays - they
> have a much larger stall angle than a square cornered blade, and only
> marginally higher drag in zero cross wind conditions.

Except that oval spokes (like CX-Rays) are what we are talking
about... I think. Flatish blades are rarely used except for the fat
aluminum ones on Ksyriums. Oval spokes will stall as well, but the
most side force will be generated when they are providing *lift*. The
same goes for the rim profile. So if the wind is effecting your
aeroish wheels, take some comfort in knowing that the drag is lower as
well (part of the lift component is forward). Time trialist know this,
but for daily riding in windy conditions it probably isn't worth the
handling hassle.

BTW, I've been riding a 18h 30mm front wheel with CX-Rays in 30+ mph
winds lately at speeds up to 60mph and haven't had any scary moments
yet.

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 17, 6:26?pm, Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:

> BTW, I've been riding a 18h 30mm front wheel with CX-Rays in 30+ mph
> winds lately at speeds up to 60mph and haven't had any scary moments
> yet.

Would oval section spoke create airfoil effect when turning the front
wheel into a headwind, sort of like a forward tailplane rudder?

cheers, Nick.

 

[Bugbear]

Crazy idea time...

If crosswinds are a problem for flat spokes, then how about wrapping
the spoke in an aerofoil that can rotate depending on the wind
direction.

Hmm maybe Sheldon Brown would like to pursue this one....