Blame the fans too for the sports drug problem

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by Mirco, Jul 27, 2006.

  1. Mirco

    Mirco New Member

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    Blame yourself too for the doping problems.
    Sports drug crisis is not only the fault of the athletes, doctors, sponsors, DS.
    Fans are naive. Fans don't care or don't want to educate themselves, don’t have the time, are blind, can’t accept it, can’t comprehend it, are in denial, etcetera.
    Most fans are in the phase of understanding how bad the problem is. Is it just a few bad apples, is he a dope doctor, does the tests work, and so forth.
    When the fans get to the phase of knowing the reality then we can have changes because without the fans there is no sport.
    Either the fans accept sports with the dope problems or demand changes.
     
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  2. wh0areume

    wh0areume New Member

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    Trolls are neat
     
  3. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    I sort of agree. Sort of.

    But "blame" is the wrong word. The only people who deserved to be blamed are the ones who make the choice to cheat. That would be the cyclists. No one makes them cheat.

    But I do agree that some fans need to stop being apologists for dope cheats. It's not fun to see your hero caught doping, but arguing against science, against all evidence to the contrary helps the athletes wreck the system. It helps them call into question the people and the safeguards that are trying to let us all enjoy a clean sport.
     
  4. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    True, but the bottom line is... if fans support a doper (monetarily) through buying sponsor's products, jerseys,fan sites,whatever...it still won't stop. What the sponsor, then the team, then the rider understands is what hits their respective back pockets...that's just business.
     
  5. sonicman

    sonicman New Member

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    I blame the fans because they still believe there are innocents and keep trying to make organizers raise the bar when it comes to doping control.

    It would be much easier to give up, if those guys wanna kill themselves... We simply can´t get on their way.
     
  6. tiogar

    tiogar New Member

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    In our society there is far too much of this collective "Oh everyone is to blame" stuff.

    Personally I take NO blame and accept NO blame for what cheats do. Those to blame for the doping are the dopers. the guys who take the dope. There is NO moral or other respoinsibility on anyone else.

    If, and i emphasise if, landis for example has cheated it is because he is a cheat. Simple as that. if we go down the road of equivocation and denial of moral inadequacy we end up in a nonsense.
     
  7. DV1976

    DV1976 New Member

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    You have to wonder though. About 3 weeks ago after the disqualifications of the 13 riders the collective sentiment in this forum was that everybody (more or less) cheats. Now at least half of us are looking for excuses for Landis (in other words for an excuse to put their heads back into the sand). We can't have it both ways. Either we see the light and decide that professional sports = doping or we keep living in fantasy land where heros prosper and cheaters are always caught. Only when the public realises that what they see as sports is just entertainment (and not too subtle advertising) with no relevance whatsoever to any ideals then we can start a serious discussion about where we want our sports to go. Until then we are all ostriches...
     
  8. tyler1212

    tyler1212 New Member

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    Dude!!.. we should organize a riot to voice our position on this matter, do you want to be our leader?
     
  9. Pendejo

    Pendejo Member

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    Let's make an assumption for a moment, one which is quite likely true based on all we know now. Let's assume that in order for even the best cyclists to be competitive in a multistage race like the Tour, they have to have included illegal substances in their training or during the race itself. (This, of course, wouldn't be the case if most riders were clean.)

    Now, let's say you've been a young amateur prodigy with the opportunity to go pro. What would you do? Well, you have three choices.

    1) You can decide to be an accountant instead.

    2) You can become a pro and vow to remain clean, knowing you will never excel there.

    3) You can do what is necessary to maximize your success.

    What would you do? I suppose I would choose the second alternative, at least for a while. But what about those who just accept the reality and dope? I don't think that choice makes them scoundrels or despicable people. Once you make the choice to play in a crooked game, what sort of ethical principle demands that you play it straight?

    Don't get me wrong - I think doping has ruined whatever integrity professional cycling might have had. But I have compassion for the athletes who are good enough to be there and who must make extremely difficult choices.
     
  10. tiogar

    tiogar New Member

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    I have considerable sympathy for what you say. In essence money tarnishes everything it touches and pro sport is no different.

    No one takes any of the new home run records in baseball seriously. Why? need anyone answer? NFL giants are dropping dead weighing huge. I wonder why. It is 20 years since anyone took a world sprinting record in track and field seriously. Why? italian soccer is riddled with corruption etc etc etc. it is not just cycling.

    Where money is involved a passtime becomes a business and pro sport is essentially part of the entertainment industry led almost totally by television. this doesn't mean the performances aren't great - many are - but they are in some sence all impure because money and its stench hangs over them.

    The greastest sporting event in the world is an event most of you have never heard of but limerickman will tell you...it is called the all ireland hurling final. Amateurs playing, for pride and love of their team, a great and noble game. 80,000 go to the game and they KNOW there is no doping or big money shenanigans. that is real sport but unfortunately cycling couldn't run like that with its long drawn out stage races.
     
  11. thebluetrain

    thebluetrain New Member

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    Flyer, Is that you?
     
  12. Mirco

    Mirco New Member

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    Not Flyer.
     
  13. tiogar

    tiogar New Member

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    The answer to the question you pose in your second last paragraph is : personal morality. All drug cheats are cheats. No equivocation.
     
  14. Ricardo29

    Ricardo29 New Member

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    tiogar...

    i think watching the Kingdom win another gaa football title far surpasses any hurling game !!
     
  15. cyclingheroes

    cyclingheroes New Member

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    I still think Tugboat is responsible for all evil..:rolleyes:
     
  16. nns1400

    nns1400 New Member

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    I already posted this on A Clean Sport thread, (sorry to anyone who read it already) but I just had to include it again here in response to your philosophy. "Accepting reality" and doping because I have made a choice to play a crooked game, so who cares about playing it straight, yes, would make me a scoundrel.

    From what I can tell the "code of ethics" in pro cycling go like this:

    1-There are rules.
    2-I must break the rules in order to win. This is acceptable because one must win in order to make money. So, it is morally acceptable for me to break the rules (and the law) because it makes money.
    3-Whenever someone else is caught, I must behave as hypocritically as humanly possible and react with shock, dismay, and disappointment when someone is doing the exact same things I do. I must attack anyone who tells the truth (eg. Simeoni) and call that person a liar.
    4-When I am caught, I must lie, lie, lie as convincingly and earnestly as possible, for as long as necessary. I must go on morning talk shows with my pretty wife and tell everyone what a nice guy I am and that I'm not "the type" to cheat. I must invent new scientific explanations no matter how foolish to avoid any admission of guilt. If necessary, I must write an entire book proclaiming my innocence, and give it an honest sounding name like My Truth.
    5-Never, ever show any remorse for cheating. Only for being caught.

    Again, everything stated here is okay, because everyone else does it, and I can make a lot of money.

    Then you sign it and the devil takes your soul. The only other people that follow this code of ethics are lawyers and Congressmen (and Enron executives and Martha Stewart). I guess that leaves some post-cycling career options.

    I guess that sounds pretty bitter. I am.
     
  17. Lonnie Utah

    Lonnie Utah Banned

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    I dunno. Sounds alot like Flyer.

    L
     
  18. Tonto

    Tonto New Member

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    It's not as black and white as that. Sure, I agree, any cyclist who chooses to dope, is a cheat. End of story. They deserve punishment and not sympathy. But I also believe that tuning in to Eurosport or by cramming the roadsides of France, knowing that cycling is riddled with cheats, makes us partially culpable. Our continued support of the sport is tantamount to a tacit approval of what goes on. I don't believe in spreading the blame out nice and thin to make it easier for everyone. First and foremost, blame lies with the cyclists, the directeurs sportifs and the governing bodies. But supporters can't continue to bleat about being cheated by the cheats and the come back again to be duped by another one and still complain. Fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice, shame on me. A bit of a trite thing to say, but pretty apt in these circumstances.

    Oh, and I've never been much of a gaaman myself but my growing cynicism with professional sport inches me closer every year. You know I can see Croker from where I'm sitting? :)
     
  19. Pendejo

    Pendejo Member

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    Yes, NNS, you've summed it up very well, I think (and well-written). So, what do you think you would do in my "hypothetical" situation? (Let's also assume that the performance-enhancing drugs in question are not "thought" to be risky for long-term health. I think most pro cyclists are convinced of this, in any case.)
     
  20. nns1400

    nns1400 New Member

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    Thank you. Well, I wouldn't assume that PEDs weren't risky. So I guess I'd pick door number one. Before everyone thinks I'm trying to be holier-than-thou about it, I would say any career a person chooses is challenged with moral questions. Let's say someone does choose accounting, and ends up at Enron or Arthur Andersen and is told, oh, it's not cheating, it's creative bookkeeping, and everyone else does it, and we'll make lots of money. Same choice?
     
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