Block Training
- Thread starter frenchyge
- Start date
Well, just about everything that has been said so far makes sense.YMCA said:
Block training is an alternate way of approching specific work. Personaly, I like to have a reason for doing things differently. I don't wake up a morning, I say hey, why not trying block training this year.
In cycling, the main reason that I see for block training, is very simple. Multi-stage intense events. Could be MS races, or even MS group rides.
This year, for myself, I will approach block pretty much the same way RapDaddyo does, but for 2 days in the row only, and with no rest in between. During those two rides, I will address L4 to 6. The reason for this, is simple. This summer, I will have a tough ride on Saturday, and an unofficial race group ride on Sunday.
Now in the context that Frenchyge described, pure block training aiming at improving a 2-3 hour event (outside multi-stage intense events), a benefit of block training is that you can put more TSS on one given system, per working array(sorry if I get lost in translation, language barrier). You can put more load, before having more time to over-compensate. Because the two days in the row, can be viewed as one single array of work. It is like a 48hr long day. So instead of over-compensate from 40 minutes of L4 (done in a "1 day array"), you recover from 60 min of L4 (done in a "2 day array"), that is just an example of course.
Thans a lot Jerryz,jerryz said:
But really, I see nothing mysterious in bck training. I have been using it since 1992. Back then, I did not even know a name was given to the fact of working the same e.system two days in the row.
So I gathered a lot of data over the years.
May I ask you what other topics are covered in this book?
Who is Morris?
I'm no coach, but this is one morons opinion. Since my last post, I have experimented with lots of different blocks. I found that I really, really liked doing blocks of v02max work. 2 days on, 1 off was preferred. The first day was just the interval set (5x5) while the second day was the same set + some tempo riding. I did a two week period of this and made a huge jump in fitness for my final peak of the year. I've also tried some threshold blocks and found I could not produce power on the second day, so I'm leaving those out.YMCA said:
TiMan said:It would be nice if Ric and company, and Mr Coggan, would chime in on this thread.....I for one would like to you what these exercise physiologists/coaches think....and what there experience has been with this type of training
To clarify, and for future reference
1) Much as i'd like to, i can't respond to all threads! So if i miss one that looks like it would be useful for me to respond on you can always PM me - but bear in mind if you PM me for every thread i won't be able to respond to them all
2) i'm a sports scientist and coach!!
3) it's Dr. Coggan! Although, i'm confident AC will respond to Andy (but Mr is incorrect!!)
4) i haven't had a chance to review this thread and the specific questions yet, but there's an interview or article or something with me in perhaps the latest issue of Bicycling magazine about reverse periodisation
5) it's holiday time here, so i've not been posting as much as usual!
6) i use reverse periodisation/block training with several people i coach who are time limited (especially in the winter).
cheers
ric
I have used both types of training. It really depends on the riders. I prefer hard day easy day but have some riders who go better after three day of hard riding. If you make gains on any programme stick with it. When you stop making gains then you need to change things around. This is why I start with long miles and when the riders stop showing benefits they move to endurance intervals and then intervals around their MAP and in the lead up to their goal events some very intense efforts.
The skill is assessing if the rider is still responding to the training they are doing and if that training is actually helping them towards their goal events.
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
The skill is assessing if the rider is still responding to the training they are doing and if that training is actually helping them towards their goal events.
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
I realized that some of your original questions may have been left unanswered.
Frenchyge, first of all, I want to wish you a great, the best possible 2006 season, healthy and fast.
Why do you consider trying block training?
I have never tried blocks to focus mainly on one fitness aspect for the whole week. I find it a bit drastic.
During the course of the year, I never develop all the L4 to 7 in the same time anyway. I develop some, while I maintaining others. The maintainance involves less time and TSS, than the development.
Here is an example case study :
This year, you really want to develop LT power. From January to March, you commit into block training for that aspect.
Day1 : LT
Day2 : LT
Day3 : off
Day4 : ez Z2 riding
Day5 : Z5-6-7 in one single workout
Day6 : Long tempo
Day7 : Whatever you need to assure good LT blocks for the next 2 days
Blocks could be good to overcome a plateau.
Or for riders like me, that are a bit "chicken" and that don't like staying in the "hurt box" for too long, blocks are excellent, cause at the end of day2, I know I did the job for sure. In fact, that is why I start planning blocks early '90s at the first place.
Frenchyge, first of all, I want to wish you a great, the best possible 2006 season, healthy and fast.
Why do you consider trying block training?
No not necessary. Block simply involve working on the same file(s), for at least 2 days in a row.frenchyge said:
It depends. That is very hard to give a generic anwser to this one. Some fitness aspects fade away quicker than some others, and it depends on how they have been developped earlier in your season. It also depends on your weak points.frenchyge said:
I have never tried blocks to focus mainly on one fitness aspect for the whole week. I find it a bit drastic.
During the course of the year, I never develop all the L4 to 7 in the same time anyway. I develop some, while I maintaining others. The maintainance involves less time and TSS, than the development.
Those aspects that have a "maintenance" status, so to speak, you can easily mix them in one single workout, while blocking on the others you want to develop.frenchyge said:
Here is an example case study :
This year, you really want to develop LT power. From January to March, you commit into block training for that aspect.
Day1 : LT
Day2 : LT
Day3 : off
Day4 : ez Z2 riding
Day5 : Z5-6-7 in one single workout
Day6 : Long tempo
Day7 : Whatever you need to assure good LT blocks for the next 2 days
Blocks could be good to overcome a plateau.
Or for riders like me, that are a bit "chicken" and that don't like staying in the "hurt box" for too long, blocks are excellent, cause at the end of day2, I know I did the job for sure. In fact, that is why I start planning blocks early '90s at the first place.
Block training, especially one energy system at a time, seems to be a very productive way to train. David Morris and Carmichael both say that it leads to greater training adaptations in a shorter period of time IF adequate rest is taken after each block. They have "their boys" do it often and especially with threshold work.
It apprears to give a lot of bang for the training buck and may be an ideal way to train and especially for increasing FTP.
More thoughts and experience would be appreciated especially from Dr. Coggan.
It apprears to give a lot of bang for the training buck and may be an ideal way to train and especially for increasing FTP.
More thoughts and experience would be appreciated especially from Dr. Coggan.
TM glad you brought this thread back as I wasn't a member of this forum when the last post was made back in December.
At the moment, I do most of my training on a trainer in the gym, except for Sundays when I get out on the road.
Now, the gym is always closed on a Monday, so if I were to experiment with block training it would probably go something like this.
Tues 5x5 VO2Max workout (with no subsequent L2/L3??)
Wed 5x5 VO2Max and 40 mins at L3
If I follow the rule, then Thurs & Fri are off. So what do I do on Saturday before at least a 2 and half hour ride on Sunday?
If I do 3 straight days of VO2Max (Tue,Wed,Thu) following the rest rule I have to take Sunday off as well, and of course Monday because the gym is closed.
Just can't seem to work out a good pattern. Btw, if you don't know I'm 64 years old if that makes any difference. I already sometimes do 3 days in a row, but mix in threshold and AWC intervals.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
At the moment, I do most of my training on a trainer in the gym, except for Sundays when I get out on the road.
Now, the gym is always closed on a Monday, so if I were to experiment with block training it would probably go something like this.
Tues 5x5 VO2Max workout (with no subsequent L2/L3??)
Wed 5x5 VO2Max and 40 mins at L3
If I follow the rule, then Thurs & Fri are off. So what do I do on Saturday before at least a 2 and half hour ride on Sunday?
If I do 3 straight days of VO2Max (Tue,Wed,Thu) following the rest rule I have to take Sunday off as well, and of course Monday because the gym is closed.
Just can't seem to work out a good pattern. Btw, if you don't know I'm 64 years old if that makes any difference. I already sometimes do 3 days in a row, but mix in threshold and AWC intervals.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Sillyoldtwit said:
Buy a trainer for sure...get the hell out of the gym. It's way too hot, you can't blow a big fan on yourself(which you must do) and you are confined by the gym hours.....and stationary bikes are not as good as your road bike.
The best trainer is this one
http://www.insideride.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=36
Cheaper is the Kurt Kinetic road machine(fluid trainer) and for $50 more you get a power meter that works with the Kinetic. The Kurt is the best fluid trainer on the market.
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/
Try this.....
Sunday ...group ride....a few sprints off the back ealry in the ride before.
Monday off.....you want to be fresh for the block to come
Tuesday....Trainer Hard for 60-90 minutes
Wednesday...Trainer 60-90 minutes
Thursday....Friday....30 minute recovery ride on trainer VERY EASY and BELOW your endurance zone...or go for an hour walk.
Friday....Easy endurance for 60 minutes with a couple sprints and one to two 1 minute hard interval as an energy system tune up for the group ride.
This time of year the training block of two days in a row should be a threshold focus and not VO2 max.
Perhaps in March you can do the two day block with threshold AND VO2 work the same days...two days in a row. Do the VO2 work first of course. That is really hard work so you might want to drop the threshold work ad just do VO2 work on those days but play it by ear(how you feel).
Maybe it would be best to do day one on the trainer VO2, after a few sprints, and day two threshold, starting about March, otherwise stick to two days of threshold work with sprints included on day one of the block.
Get your sprinting in every week year round. Do some in the group ride and on the first day of the block of work you do on the trainer before doing VO2 or threshold work.
You can include some L2-3 on the block days if you like, after the intense stuff, but perhaps your long group ride is enough. Push the group ride to 3-4 hours if you can.
You can also try this schedule....
Sunday...Hard group ride
Monday...trainer, hard
Tuesday...trainer, hard
That's three hard days in a row
Wednesday...30 min recovery ride or a walk
Thursday...off
Friday...off
Saturday...60 minutes on trainer or 90 minutes outside. Mostly endurance but with a few sprints and 1-2 one minute intervals(as a tune up ride) for the group ride.
Recovery is KEY for everyone and especially those over 50.
Focus on intensity and NOT volume, as long as you are in half decent shape already ,and it looks like you are.
Good luck.
Block training is harder to work out when you're on a 7 day schedule. Ideally you would have no concern about the days of the week, and you could go 3on-3off-etc etc. Some people do fine with 3on-2off, but at 64 maybe it's harder to recover? That's what all the literature says but being 30 years your junior I obviously have no experience there.Sillyoldtwit said:
Also, most (not all) block training routines have the times drift downward as the block goes on - both the interval and the total time. So you might do something like this:
T: 5x5 (25 total)
W: 4x6 (24)
T: 3x6 (18)
I've read a few people that like this pattern for 3 day blocks:
5x5
3x7
1x????
Other people actually seem to get stronger as the blocks go on. I've had that happen a few times with L4 blocks, but not usually.
It also depends what time of season you're in. Since you're in Japan I guess the season is the same there as it is here in the US? If so, I would recommend no more than 2 days back-to-back right now, since it's not the optimal time to overload you L5/L6 work.
Play with it a little. Maybe try T/W with L5/6 blocks, take only 1 day off, then do an L3 day on Friday, taking Saturday off. Are you in the pattern of trying to have a mini peak on the group rides?
normZurawski said:
Good advice above.
Yes, Block guru, David Morris, does say to reduce load each successive day in the block. That is often done with less total time and shorter intervals. But he also says to throw in a L4 climb on the last day of the block since it is easier to maintain power this way.
The literature says that MANY actually DO get stronger as the days in the block progress, and over a 4 day block too, although heart rate will drop at the same effort/power level due to fatigue. So this is where a power meter comes in handy. DO NOT try to force your heart rate to go exactly where is was the day before in the block or you will be training harder than you need to. I think it is really important to train by power when block training for the above reason.
As I said....this time of year don't be working on L5-6 intervals. thetre is plenty of time to work on VO2 max in the early Sprin and the L6(anaerobic intervals) don't need to be done for more than a couple months at most for most people, even those that race. In fact many racers NEVER do structured L6 training at all and do very well.
I do think many men try to peak for a group ride and that is great if you don't race much if at all. So teo days before the group ride you need to take a day off or reocvery ride. Then the day before the group ride do a short tune up ride with a few hard but short efforts.
Interesting - duly noted!TiMan said:
Much better off using RPE than HR for this stuff, IMO. Obviously a PM is going to be best.TiMan said:
I think I've read before that you don't agree with Morris about starting your pre-season with L5/6 work. At what points do you focus on those systems? I'm looking to structure 2007 with L5/6 work in January, L4 work in February, then plenty of L3 work after that with weekly forays into L4-6. That's following an offseason of mostly L3 work with some L4 work thrown in for good measure. Plus the occasional weekend group ride. I should also note that my events are off-road and usually in the realm of 4+ hours, usually more. After my first A event, a 12 hour race in June, I'll spend some time again in L6/5/4 before hitting the L3 copiously again.TiMan said:
I do the opposite. I train through everything unless it's a target. Yesterday I rode with guys that I'll be racing against on and off in the next season, and I did some solid L4 work the day before. I was hurting, and it showed on the climbs. It fits my training better to not try and peak for these rides, plus it makes these guys think I'm out of shape anyway. Double bonus!TiMan said:
Wow, that's interesting. My approach is about as different as I can imagine. I never "focus" on L3 or below, so I'll leave that part aside. But, looking exclusively at L4-L6, I focus on L4/L5 year round (basically an FTP focus) in a ~4:1 ratio (L4:L5) and my L6 efforts result from short climbs that I ride at L6 largely because there is a descent immediately following. If it weren't for the short climbs on some of my road routes, I would probably not get any L6 time at all until ~6-8 weeks before a target event. Then, I ramp up the L6 time significantly (e.g., 25% of the total TSS of L4+L5+L6+L7). Obviously, a training plan is driven by the goals of the plan and one's present fitness, but it's interesting where we place L4, L5 and L6 efforts in our respective plans.normZurawski said:
TiMan said:
Here's my take on block training: while I can't really think of any physiological reason why it should be particularly beneficial, it does have one practical advantage, and that is the fact that it helps assure that you're carrying as large a training load as you can, w/o overtraining. That is, if you follow the paradigm of training hard day-after-day until your performance begins to decline (i.e., by definition, you've overreached), then rest until you've fully recovered, over the long haul you will have done as many hard workouts as you can handle, but no more. It only really works this way, though, if your schedule is sufficiently flexible to allow it, something that is generally not true for most working stiffs (keep in mind that Morris and Golich developed their approach when working with individuals who sole focus was riding a bike).
I guess the only other comment I might add is that I, too, find it hard to make really large gains in a particular ability unless that is a significant focus of my training...which means that other things basically have to be put on the backburner until it's their turn. IOW, I personally don't find much benefit of doing the "a little level 4 here, a little level 5 there, toss in a level 6 workout every 2 wk" sort of schedule (although I imagine that somebody just starting out very well could).
I find this stuff fascinating...RapDaddyo said:
The overall structure is something I've cobbled together from various sources, and something I've been thinking of this year as how to do next year. The Jan/Feb blocks are straight out of Morris. But I found it a pleasant surprise that Dave Harris actually said that he does the same thing. First build the necessary power, then maintain it. Morris advocates pure block work in the "preseason". I don't know if I want to give up my weekend off-road rides because this stuff needs to be fun, after all.
The L3 stuff isn't precisely focus, it's really what the long weekend rides are going to be about. My general pattern is 5 days a week, so the weekend rides are where the L3 will come into play. But now that you mention it maybe that's a poorly named period. There will be 1 L4 and L5 workout in those 5 days. And there will certainly be an off-road ride, which is sort of all-level inclusive. So that leaves 2 rides, one of which will likely be an L3 ride on the weekend to build event endurance. Maybe the other weekday ride is a 2 hour L3 ride just to get TIS.
My first target event is a 12 hour race and the second is a 24 hour race. So in terms of specificity, L3 is really as specific as it gets. The third event is a 50k, again off-road. That will be a total 180 in terms of training. I'll probably focus on L4-6 tremendously in that time frame.
My question here would be this. How much time do you need to spend on those other systems in order to not erode the previous gains there? Specifically, the Morris "pre-season" says 4 weeks of pure L5/6 followed by 4 weeks of pure L4. My concern would be that you spend 4 weeks killing yourself only to have it erode while you do the L4 work.acoggan said:
Going further, does a 4 week block (well, 3 plus a rest week) give you that much more of a gain than, for instance, a 1 week block (say 3-4 days consecutive on the same system) of L5 followed by a 1 week block of L4, etc etc, with race simulation rides thrown in?
normZurawski said:
Well, as you know Morris does L5 before L4 in the year. I don't know when he fits in L6, if he has his riders doing any at all. L7 is year round.
The reason he does L5 before L4 is because he reasons that L4 is always a factor of, or percentage of, VO2 max.....so he wants to build VO2 max first before threshold power. I higher VO2 max means a higher potential threshold power?
This makes some sense except that VO2 max is less trainable than threshold.
Also, L4 work will raise VO2 max too.
Also, if you do VO2 make work first you may very well peak at the wrong time in the year.
I would start doing L5 work perhaps a month before your first early races....mabe a three week block and then a recovery week...then a tune up ride and then race.
