Blocking 2x20's

[whoawhoa]

Has anyone tried doing back-to-back days of 2x20's. Would doing threshold work on succesive days offer any benefit? I planned on doing them wednesday and thursday of this week, but on thursday I felt I couldn't reach my goal power so I did some tempo instead. Is there any reason to do this workout when you can't reach max power? I'm interested because I tried some blocks of vo2max work, and that seemed to work really well. But I think those may be easier to recover from.

 

[frenchyge]

Back-to-back threshold work is tough for me. I sandwich my 2x20 days around a 6x5 day and that's worked pretty well so far.

 

[whoawhoa]

Back-to-back threshold work is tough for me. I sandwich my 2x20 days around a 6x5 day and that's worked pretty well so far.

That also sounds like a pretty tough few days to me. Do you just do the intervals and leave each training session at that? That is what I did when trying v02max blocks, whereas normally I'd do them (and the 2x20's) as part of a ~3hr~ day. In fact, I'd normally almost get dropped at the beggining of our local hammerfest group ride 30 or so minutes after completing my interval sets. By the end of the ride I was usually able to shred the group. I kind of wonder why that is. The past two days, where I tried to do back to back 2x20's, I just did the intervals, and was surprised I didn't feel fresher.

 

[frenchyge]

Day 3 is mentally tough, but for some reason the VO2 work doesn't deaden my legs like threshold work, and I haven't had trouble meeting my power goals on day 3 so far. Like you, if I'm unable to hold power for a 20min interval, then I'll switch to tempo instead. This doesn't happen often, and seems to be more related to getting home late from work than residual fatigue.

I feel like I can handle ~125 TSS per workout day-in and day-out, so I've arranged my week into ~300-350 TSS on the weekend (w/ Monday off) and the L4/L5/L4 block during the week at a goal of ~125 TSS per workout (w/ Friday off as well). To get 125 TSS in those mid-week workouts takes about 1.5 hrs each, which means 3x20 + warmup/down and rests is just about right as is, and 6x5 + rests may need an additional 15-30 minutes of tempo to get there.

Including intervals into a longer ride, like you and Rapdaddyo mention, sounds like a good option if you can get it, but I'm too much of a wimp to ride in the cold or dark so it's trainer-time for me.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I've done a lot of back-to-back days, at various durations and intensities. I find that TSS is the best predictor of my ability to ride at my normal interval intensities on the 2nd day and TSS=200 is my transition level. My group rides on Sat/Sun are typically <TSS200, and I find that I am sufficiently fresh on the 2nd day. But, my weekly "hard" rides are typically >TSS200 and I find it almost impossible to ride at full power on the 2nd day. Maybe I need to build up my endurance.

 

[blkhotrod]

That also sounds like a pretty tough few days to me. Do you just do the intervals and leave each training session at that? That is what I did when trying v02max blocks, whereas normally I'd do them (and the 2x20's) as part of a ~3hr~ day. In fact, I'd normally almost get dropped at the beggining of our local hammerfest group ride 30 or so minutes after completing my interval sets. By the end of the ride I was usually able to shred the group. I kind of wonder why that is. The past two days, where I tried to do back to back 2x20's, I just did the intervals, and was surprised I didn't feel fresher.

How do you find the time with all your sophomore high school studies. very impressive

 

[whoawhoa]

How do you find the time with all your sophomore high school studies. very impressive

Yes, public high school in the U.S. is so overwelminglee hard

 

[postal_bag]

Has anyone tried doing back-to-back days of 2x20's. Would doing threshold work on succesive days offer any benefit? I planned on doing them wednesday and thursday of this week, but on thursday I felt I couldn't reach my goal power so I did some tempo instead. Is there any reason to do this workout when you can't reach max power? I'm interested because I tried some blocks of vo2max work, and that seemed to work really well. But I think those may be easier to recover from.

That Dave Morris book I mentioned in the other thread has you blocking threshold days. He suggests that you decrease the interval length and possibly increase the power as the block progresses. You could try 2x20 at 95% FT, followed by 2x15 at 100% FT on the 2nd day, and 3x10 at 105% FT on the 3rd day. He has you starting at shorter durations though, ie: 3x12min, 3x10 min, 4x8 min. Maybe you could work up to 3x20, 3x15, 4x10 or something like that. For the most part he follows a 3 days on-2 days easy/off, 2 days on-2 days easy/off pattern.

 

[Quadsweep]

Has anyone tried doing back-to-back days of 2x20's. Would doing threshold work on succesive days offer any benefit? I planned on doing them wednesday and thursday of this week, but on thursday I felt I couldn't reach my goal power so I did some tempo instead. Is there any reason to do this workout when you can't reach max power? I'm interested because I tried some blocks of vo2max work, and that seemed to work really well. But I think those may be easier to recover from.

I have blocked trained threshold 2-3 days in a row.....but then you need days of a very easy recovery spin for 30-60 minutes .
David Morris, Mr. Block training himself, says that your recovery days need to equal the length of the block.
Carmichael says that he has found that his boys get a better results from Lactate threshold training when LT days are done in a block of 2-3 days followed by 1-2 days of recovery.

I think block training threshold is a good idea but a lot of guys won't take the needed recovery time after a block of 2-3 days. After 2-3 days of threshold work you are pretty tired and need more recuperation time than normal. But the 2-3 days really hammers the LT energy system and that is a good thing, just as long as you allow for enough recuperation time so your body can supercompensate and get stronger.

Block training threshold works well when you can't train six days a week, or can't train for more than 2-3 days in a row, due to "having a life" with other responsibilities etc.

I work three 12 hour shifts in a row each week. These days are pretty much shot for training, although I can do recovery rides on my trainer. I don't have the energy to do lactate threshold or VO2 max work on my trainer these days.

So I have done the following with good results.... Day one of my days off I might do sprints in the am with endurance riding between. Then day two I will start my LT block and do 2-3 sets of 20 minutes of climbing at a threshold pace followed by some endurance riding. Day three I might do a long sustained climb of 45-60 minutes at threshold followed by some endurance riding. Day 4 I might do a few sets of 10 minutes of threshold on the flats(easier LT day), followed by a longish endurance ride since I will then have three days off.
Days 5 and 6 are recovery rides in my trainer for 30-60 minutes and day 7 is off.

That's pretty hard and focused LT training but I allow plenty of recovery time. It works well.

David Morris says that you should make each successive day in a block a little easier with shorter intervals and or less time.

I have also done this type of block work when focusing on endurance with long rides 4 days in a row.

I have also done three days in a row of VO2 max intervals, after an initial day of Sprints with some endurance work. HOWEVER, this is REALLY HARD to do and you are really wiped out for three days after. BUT, if you can recover in three days then you end up getting really really strong. The key is to do NOTHING physical for three days after these intervals except for very light recovery spinning. Don't try to train AT ALL for three days in a row.

 

[SolarEnergy]

That Dave Morris book I mentioned in the other thread has you blocking threshold days. He suggests that you decrease the interval length and possibly increase the power as the block progresses. You could try 2x20 at 95% FT, followed by 2x15 at 100% FT on the 2nd day, and 3x10 at 105% FT on the 3rd day. He has you starting at shorter durations though, ie: 3x12min, 3x10 min, 4x8 min. Maybe you could work up to 3x20, 3x15, 4x10 or something like that. For the most part he follows a 3 days on-2 days easy/off, 2 days on-2 days easy/off pattern.

I agree with all that. That is exactly how I approach block training. The two days are not necessary made of the same work/rest intervals power and durations.

My philosophy in block training, is that the two days make one great day. Simple and efficient. That is a natural anwser to a simple problem. How can I do more of Z4 in a day?

One manage to pull 2X25s, holding 100% FT. Great, what's next? Well I can do one 30 on day 1, 2X15 on day 2. I'll overcompensate from it like 60min in Z4, instead of 50min. But the progression must be the same as if you were loading the conventional way.

IOW, when you plan your TSS distribution per microcycle at the begining of the year, that distribution accross the levels, doesn't change that much even if blocks are schedule.

Now, you may wander. Why not everybody block?

My humble anwser to this question, is that the role of your program is to bring you where you want to get, fast enough so you are happy with your improvement curve, but not necessary as fast as possible.

But when you are an experienced rider, in the same category for (too) many years, then blocks are a good way to keep increasing the workoad, in one system, give it more focus. That is one reason, among others, to block.

2 or 3 days, with neighboor levels, are also blocks in my mind, but with various shades instead of just one color. Ex.: Long Z6 intervals on day1, short Z5 intervals on day2.