Boeing "Dream Liner" 787 set to challenge Airbus.

[ryan_velo.]

Yes but, do you know how much gas costs in, for example-England, France, Germany Spain, Japan Well, I lived in Japan & they paid @ $4.50/gal. (that was back in '89, mind you). It's no wonder all of these dolts in the U.S. drive a car 200yards to the store when they could walk/ride a bike. Its ludicrous We act as we have a "right" to cheap gas when we are one of the primary culprits of conspicious consumption. We're practically giving the sh*t away to begin with. What say you Conniebiker

Yes, not to mention our SUV's that get 12mpg, It's sickening. & our leaders need to start finding out ways to fule our vehicles. Not exploiting them to the most extreme extent as to imperialism! In 100 years our oil reserves will almost be deminished. But the 'stupid white men' don't care. It will not effect them in their life time, as long as they are makin' lots O' $$$ every things great!

 

[ryan_velo.]

Yes but, do you know how much gas costs in, for example-England, France, Germany Spain, Japan Well, I lived in Japan & they paid @ $4.50/gal. (that was back in '89, mind you). It's no wonder all of these dolts in the U.S. drive a car 200yards to the store when they could walk/ride a bike. Its ludicrous We act as we have a "right" to cheap gas when we are one of the primary culprits of conspicious consumption. We're practically giving the sh*t away to begin with. What say you Conniebiker

Yes, not to mention our SUV's that get 12mpg, It's sickening. & our leaders need to start finding out other ways to fule our vehicles. Not exploiting them to the most extreme extent as imperialism! In 100 years our oil reserves will almost be deminished. But the 'stupid white men' don't care. It will not effect them in their life time, as long as they are makin' lots O' $$$ every things great!

 

[davidmc]

Yes, not to mention our SUV's that get 12mpg, It's sickening. & our leaders need to start finding out other ways to fule our vehicles. Not exploiting them to the most extreme extent as imperialism! In 100 years our oil reserves will almost be deminished. But the 'stupid white men' don't care. It will not effect them in their life time, as long as they are makin' lots O' $$$ every things great!

It's a conspiracy between Detroit & "Cheney's boys" (energy titans) to convince vain idiots to buy behemoths like the hummer & demand that we keep our gas below $2/gal. Its ludicrous . The world, rightly, despises us for Bush but, conspicious consumption is our own fault.

 

[Conniebiker]

Due to my parent's jobs, I grew up in Asian countries. I am very familiar with their exhorbitant prices. That does not mean they should be thus. I drive a truck that gets 20mpg because i have to. I rode to work and school most of the time from 14 yrs old on(homeschooled before that) and up to this week I made little more than a tank of gas a week. So even 1.90 is a fortune to a scale like that. In the US we produce enough oil to supply ourselves, but we do not acknowledge that. Thus we ally with OPEC (BOOOOO!) who loves nothing more than to test how much we will pay. Try the great oil "Shortage" of the seventies. The supplies were merely sitting off shore. There is no reason they can claim other than whim that gas should be more than 1.30 a gallon in the US. In the Asian and other countries I can see it being more because they have to import it from elsewhere and that is not so simple of a task. Japan makes the most efficient cars out of neccessity, a result we can certainly use here, but the american culture is so egotistically driven by big things. 5'2" high single women with a Ford Excursion that makes 12 mpg on a good day unloaded, because it makes her feel powerful while menacing us cyclists while talking on a cell phone. Enough rranting for now.

 

[davidmc]

but the American culture is so egotistically driven by big things. 5'2" high single women with a Ford Excursion that makes 12 mpg on a good day unloaded, because it makes her feel powerful while menacing us cyclists while talking on a cell phone. Enough rranting for now.

That is one of my pet peeves (?) I didn't want to elucidate that fact thinking that you would think i was singling women out which seem to be the primary perpetrators of this "look at me in my SUV on my phone" mentality. "All is vanity.

 

[jaguar75]

actually, a lot of ariport terminals are in the process right now of being upgraded. people are willing to spend big on this project in order to pull us out of the dreary long haul situation that we currently have with boeings out dated planes constantly having to be repaiered on the runway

two years ago i flew from Amsterdam direct to the far east using a well known dutch company. We stopped in Kuala Lumpur for change passengers an di stayed on for the onward journey. There were a few technicains called in to take a look at a fault while the plane was grounded for 2 hours longer that scheduled. I asked what was wrong and the crew were very evasive with their answers. One of the technicians said that the planes navigation system was out and had been for the last 2000 miles of the trip....**** me. the pilot had been flying over the middle east, india and china manually trying to guess where he was going....this should have been in the news. Luckilly the dutch polit knew where he was going..

yeah, boeing 747 technology...great!

MountainPro...Straight up...You are a dumb ass!!! I have read a lot of threads that you have posts in and I think that you generally like to post just because you want to come back and read what it is you previously wrote. When you get up in the morning do you stand in front of the mirror and fondle yourself?

I don't usually comment in threads unless I know what I am talking about and here is a thread where I can "roll up my sleeves". I Graduated from a prestigious Aeronautics school in Florida where I studied to be an engineer and a pilot. I went to work immediately after graduation for AA. Even though I personaly can't stand Airbus aircraft I will not take anything away from them as many of my friends, who still fly, love them. The A380 does nothing more than reflect the future of human engineering feats to cross that line of dare to create something awe inspiring. Every few years some country, somewhere in the world takes a huge engineering leap and inspires everyone to beat it. It is a beautiful thing as every new engineering accomplishment creates tecnological breakthroughs that benefit and impact so much more.

People are willing to spend big on this project in order to pull us out of the dreary long haul situation that we currently have with boeings out dated planes constantly having to be repaiered on the runway

This quote is absurd on so many levels. When Boeing created the 747 it initially did so with the concept of a piano bar and galley and people walking around socializing..blah blah blah. Big planes don't generate big profits with people occupying precious cabin sqft'age standing at a bar drinking martini's. They do so by craming as many people as they can in and charging them to get from point a to point b. You wanna see crammed...get on an Asian carrier flight I am surprised those companies have not figured out a way to velcro seats to the cabing ceiling to get those few extra people on board.

Remember MountainPro. If it was built by man it will eventually break and need to be repaired. The concord is one of the greatest aircraft to ever fly and the fact that it did not have more accidents is a miracle. Not many people know that the way you keep a fuselage (hull) cool traveling at over 1400 knots is by circulating pressurized fuel through it...yes you read me right...the fuselage of the concorde was the fuel tank...not in the wings like most traditional designs have it. What you also don't know is that the concorde NEVER ran at a profit. It was intended to offer premium service to BA and AirFrance's Premium (business and movie star) clientel. The govenments of France and GB paid for its operation when BA and AirFrance were partially subsidized by their respective governments. Boeing had designed several SST's (SuperSonic Transports) trying to make them cost effective to mass produce and never could...We just are not there yet in technology. This is why the concorde was never mass produced and flown by an other nations. After the AirFrance concorde crashed everyone said enough is enough. The concordes 20 hours of maintenance for every one hour of flight was just to much to justify keeping it going any longer. It has earned a spot at the Smithsonian museum of flight right next to the X-1 in my opinion.

I asked what was wrong and the crew were very evasive with their answers. One of the technicians said that the planes navigation system was out and had been for the last 2000 miles of the trip....**** me. the pilot had been flying over the middle east, india and china manually trying to guess where he was going....this should have been in the news.

Again, another great display of your inteligence...First you never tell passengers anything like this for 2 reasons. 1) It will cause people like you to over react and when you are in an enclosed space for a very long time you don't want hysterical passengers worrying about stuff that does not need to be worried about. 2) Most aircarft (Boeing and Airbus) have several forms of navigation on board and their operation, on average, is triple redundant. From GPS, to LORAN, to VOR's and NDB's an aircraft is very rarely withou t the ability to navigate. and even if all navigation does fail every pilot can resort back to Pilotage and Dead Reckoning (Pulling out a map and looking for landscapes). This is the absolute first thing a pilot learns to do when learning how to navigate.

Luckilly the dutch polit knew where he was going..

...You must think that Americans are complete inept morons...so sad!

 

[FredC]

MountainPro...Straight up...You are a dumb ass!!! I have read a lot of threads that you have posts in and I think that you generally like to post just because you want to come back and read what it is you previously wrote. When you get up in the morning do you stand in front of the mirror and fondle yourself?

I don't usually comment in threads unless I know what I am talking about and here is a thread where I can "roll up my sleeves". I Graduated from a prestigious Aeronautics school in Florida where I studied to be an engineer and a pilot. I went to work immediately after graduation for AA. Even though I personaly can't stand Airbus aircraft I will not take anything away from them as many of my friends, who still fly, love them. The A380 does nothing more than reflect the future of human engineering feats to cross that line of dare to create something awe inspiring. Every few years some country, somewhere in the world takes a huge engineering leap and inspires everyone to beat it. It is a beautiful thing as every new engineering accomplishment creates tecnological breakthroughs that benefit and impact so much more.



This quote is absurd on so many levels. When Boeing created the 747 it initially did so with the concept of a piano bar and galley and people walking around socializing..blah blah blah. Big planes don't generate big profits with people occupying precious cabin sqft'age standing at a bar drinking martini's. They do so by craming as many people as they can in and charging them to get from point a to point b. You wanna see crammed...get on an Asian carrier flight I am surprised those companies have not figured out a way to velcro seats to the cabing ceiling to get those few extra people on board.

Remember MountainPro. If it was built by man it will eventually break and need to be repaired. The concord is one of the greatest aircraft to ever fly and the fact that it did not have more accidents is a miracle. Not many people know that the way you keep a fuselage (hull) cool traveling at over 1400 knots is by circulating pressurized fuel through it...yes you read me right...the fuselage of the concorde was the fuel tank...not in the wings like most traditional designs have it. What you also don't know is that the concorde NEVER ran at a profit. It was intended to offer premium service to BA and AirFrance's Premium (business and movie star) clientel. The govenments of France and GB paid for its operation when BA and AirFrance were partially subsidized by their respective governments. Boeing had designed several SST's (SuperSonic Transports) trying to make them cost effective to mass produce and never could...We just are not there yet in technology. This is why the concorde was never mass produced and flown by an other nations. After the AirFrance concorde crashed everyone said enough is enough. The concordes 20 hours of maintenance for every one hour of flight was just to much to justify keeping it going any longer. It has earned a spot at the Smithsonian museum of flight right next to the X-1 in my opinion.



Again, another great display of your inteligence...First you never tell passengers anything like this for 2 reasons. 1) It will cause people like you to over react and when you are in an enclosed space for a very long time you don't want hysterical passengers worrying about stuff that does not need to be worried about. 2) Most aircarft (Boeing and Airbus) have several forms of navigation on board and their operation, on average, is triple redundant. From GPS, to LORAN, to VOR's and NDB's an aircraft is very rarely withou t the ability to navigate. and even if all navigation does fail every pilot can resort back to Pilotage and Dead Reckoning (Pulling out a map and looking for landscapes). This is the absolute first thing a pilot learns to do when learning how to navigate.

...You must think that Americans are complete inept morons...so sad!

Bloody Good post. I didn't go into the twiddly bits at the time when the topic was 'Hot'. For example, the fuel pump tank flight trim aspect, which required a full time flight engineer as it was analogue, and today would be auto digital.
There is no doubt that both the French and the Brits aircraft industries have benefitted from all the research and development. Did you know that the flight deck of Concorde was based on the TSR-1, a fighter.
Hey listen here, there was a lot of **** from your side of the pond at the time because you didn't have anything to compete with Concorde.
Oh yep, dead reckoning in a decent sized 'plane at night really means reckon on being dead.
So what do you do now, one of my pals, he left Lufthansa, keeps the chewing gum and string DC10's freighters up there somehow.

 

[darkboong]

We have yet to actually see how well it will work in practice, but Boeing has proven they know what they are doing.

Like the SST for example.

I should qualify that.

They wanted bigger, faster and higher. Net result, it was utterly unfeasible
rather than doable like Concorde. The motors were impressive, but I can't
find any photos online - there are some amazing photos in books of them
doing an afterburner test... IIRC 100,000 lbs wet, ~63,000 lbs dry thrust.

Those engines were never a sane option though.

"The first aircraft could then be certified and introduced to airline service in mid-1974. By 1980 the company estimated there would be a market for a larger Model 390-475 SST, with between 700 and 1,000 aircraft being required."

Techincally they were pushing too hard and their market estimates were
way out. Still, the US barred Concorde from using US airports for a few
years so they had a chance to savour their sour grapes nonetheless.

 

[FredC]

Like the SST for example.

Dream on. Colonise the Moon. Colonise Mars. Do they still sell Dan Dare comics? Concorde fully loaded went faster than Raptor F22.

 

[Weisse Luft]

Dream on. Colonise the Moon. Colonise Mars. Do they still sell Dan Dare comics? Concorde fully loaded went faster than Raptor F22.

But the Concorde is a relic. What is the fastest passenger plane today? Its no Airbus.

 

[FredC]

But the Concorde is a relic. What is the fastest passenger plane today? Its no Airbus.

I think the subject here is progression in the avionics industry for the benefit of mass transport. Fastest passenger plane today? Might be the Lear Jet?, but that's not the issue. Concorde, a relic? effoff, if you rolled one of them out tomorrow........

 

[FredC]

But the Concorde is a relic. What is the fastest passenger plane today? Its no Airbus.

Oh yes, so can you tell us why every civil airline pilot that has ever flown would like to Captain Concorde. I suppose you know some bitter and twisted ones who say otherwise. Eff off.

 

[jaguar75]

But the Concorde is a relic. What is the fastest passenger plane today? Its no Airbus.

Weisse you are correct but you have to define what a passenger aircraft is...if you are talking in the world of the airlines still flying it is the 727 followed closely by the 747. A Fraternity Bro of mine used to fly the 72 with ATA and he routinely cruised in the .92 Mach range which is at the begining of the trans-sonic region. He has told me that he used to get 'Mach buffet' in a power on decent. The incredible sweep of the 72's wings made it fly like a bat out of hell but made it very dangerous during critical phases of flight (takeoff and landing). The huge split flaps generated tons of lift but ofcourse with lift comes drag and it created a lot of that. Think of a Ferrari with boxes stuck to the doors.

In the world of Corporate aviation all of the big boys run pretty close...BAE/Hawker, Gulfstream, Embraer, Canadair, and Lear.

The same thing you say about the Concorde can be said about the 727. All of the existing airframes are really impractical the keep flying but if you incorporated modern technology (Composites and modern Avionics) into new aircraft you would have 2 really awesome machines back in the sky in force. Both the 727 and the Concorde are more than just aircraft they are works of art that each defined, in their own right, an era of aviation.

 

[jaguar75]

Oh yes, so can you tell us why every civil airline pilot that has ever flown would like to Captain Concorde.

I personally would have been hard as a rock at the thought of the opportunity of flying the Concorde. I would say that the only pilot that would have turned down the opportunity would be one to intimidated by the danger and power that represents the aircraft. I read an artical when I was in flight school about a BA pilot who talked about what it was like to get 1) selected and 2) trained to fly the beast. Only the best of the best were selected out of BA's line up. He said that if the IP (Instructor Pilot) said 164 kts on the downwind portion of the pattern and you did 163 or 165 then you booted. If you did not follow takeoff-climb-cruise and cruise-deceleration-decent-landing procedures to the letter you were sent packing. Awesome article!!!

 

[jaguar75]

Oh yep, dead reckoning in a decent sized 'plane at night really means reckon on being dead.
So what do you do now, one of my pals, he left Lufthansa, keeps the chewing gum and string DC10's freighters up there somehow.

I was layed off in 2003 and started building databases. Computers have always been a passion of mine so when I left AA it just seemed like the thing to do.

I love DC-10's this is by far one of the greatest iconic aircraft to have ever hit the skies. It is the basics. direct linkage flight controls, analog gauges and unbelieveably forgiving to fly. I wish I could have had the chance...

 

[Weisse Luft]

I think the subject here is progression in the avionics industry for the benefit of mass transport. Fastest passenger plane today? Might be the Lear Jet?, but that's not the issue. Concorde, a relic? effoff, if you rolled one of them out tomorrow........

It would lose money. It is too cramped for all but private charter but there is no one who would splurge on a private SST charter.

Hell, even the SR71 is a relic.

 

[davidmc]

But the Concorde is a relic. What is the fastest passenger plane today? Its no Airbus.

It used to land over in my neck of the woods-Dulles Airport. Then it was restricted to fewer airports due to its noise level. Not saying it wasn't a good performer but it is from a different era much like the WTC, Space Shuttle, carbuerated engines, ect...

 

[FredC]

I personally would have been hard as a rock at the thought of the opportunity of flying the Concorde. I would say that the only pilot that would have turned down the opportunity would be one to intimidated by the danger and power that represents the aircraft. I read an artical when I was in flight school about a BA pilot who talked about what it was like to get 1) selected and 2) trained to fly the beast. Only the best of the best were selected out of BA's line up. He said that if the IP (Instructor Pilot) said 164 kts on the downwind portion of the pattern and you did 163 or 165 then you booted. If you did not follow takeoff-climb-cruise and cruise-deceleration-decent-landing procedures to the letter you were sent packing. Awesome article!!!

Did you know that the RR Olympus Snecma engines on Concorde were developed from the Avro Vulcan Bomber engines. The air intake system is something else.
BTW I have a genuine onboard Concorde Camera Control unit. I remember the Jaguar under wraps at RAF Wharton in 1969, that's the same place where they did the Tornadoes to start with.

 

[jaguar75]

Did you know that the RR Olympus Snecma engines on Concorde were developed from the Avro Vulcan Bomber engines. The air intake system is something else.
BTW I have a genuine onboard Concorde Camera Control unit. I remember the Jaguar under wraps at RAF Wharton in 1969, that's the same place where they did the Tornadoes to start with.

The thought of putting the engines in "pods" like BAE did was ingenious. The technology of putting loovers and slats in the intakes that were adjustable to keep the shockwave at the right distance in front of the engines to convert sonic flow to subsonic flow was ingenious. I would go out on a limb and say that Rockwell spun off on this concept when the B-1 was designed and later the Russian TU-144.

Ahh the Sepecat Jaguar. I equate this aircraft to the F-4. It just goes to show you that when you put enough power behind anything it will fly...even a trash can...LOL!

 

[jaguar75]

BTW I have a genuine onboard Concorde Camera Control unit.

That is awesome...I wonder what that would fetch on ebay?