Bottom Bracket Blues...

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Paul Clarke, May 16, 2003.

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  1. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Guest

    One of the lockrings seemed to be coming loose at the bottom bracket (ie area where the pedal axis
    is housed)...

    Took it in, the bike shop rang me back - the lockring has sheared into two with the outer half
    coming away and the inner section still screwed in hard. They returned the bike to me as they
    couldn't get this out to do the repair. So as things stand my old bike is a write-off unless I can
    come up with a way to shift it, I'm told it's rusted in and it won't cut because it's hardened.

    The two ideas to date are to weld a bar across the inside of the ring about 3cm diameter, use pliers
    and unscrew (bikeshop's idea - not mine!) or to try to get a notch in and 'tap' it out with hammer
    and cold chisel - haven't tried this yet. Would help if I had a good workshop - which I don't!.

    Anyone got any other ideas? - plan B is to get a cheap 2nd hand bike & plagiarise my old one -
    probably wouldn't cost much more than the repair (£25) but would be a lot of work to refit &
    reconfigure.

    Thanks, Paul
     
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  2. Will Plummer

    Will Plummer Guest

    Despite being hardened, you should be able to find something that will cut it - perhaps a normal
    hacksaw blade will be inadequate but you could try some thing like a tile saw that has Caborundum
    grit rather than regular saw teeth. I am assuming that you want to cut along the bb axis and the
    "collapse" the lockring in on itself.

    You could try finding a pair of thick washers that just fit inside the bottom bracket resting either
    side of the broken lockring - a large nut and bolt could then be tightened through this and if you
    arrange it so that further tightening is in the normal unscrewing direction of the lockring, it may
    just grip enough to twist it out.

    I would be wary of welding in this area - at the very least the heat would destroy the finish - if
    your frame is brazed rather than welded, it may just fall apart.

    Good Luck

    "Paul Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > One of the lockrings seemed to be coming loose at the bottom bracket (ie area where the pedal axis
    > is housed)...
    >
    > Took it in, the bike shop rang me back - the lockring has sheared into two with the outer half
    > coming away and the inner section still screwed in
    hard.
    > They returned the bike to me as they couldn't get this out to do the
    repair.
    > So as things stand my old bike is a write-off unless I can come up with a way to shift it, I'm
    > told it's rusted in and it won't cut because it's hardened.
    >
    > The two ideas to date are to weld a bar across the inside of the ring
    about
    > 3cm diameter, use pliers and unscrew (bikeshop's idea - not mine!) or to
    try
    > to get a notch in and 'tap' it out with hammer and cold chisel - haven't tried this yet. Would
    > help if I had a good workshop - which I don't!.
    >
    > Anyone got any other ideas? - plan B is to get a cheap 2nd hand bike & plagiarise my old one -
    > probably wouldn't cost much more than the repair (£25) but would be a lot of work to refit &
    > reconfigure.
    >
    > Thanks, Paul
    >
    >
    >
     
  3. Archierob

    Archierob Guest

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Think you may have the terminology wrong there. The lock ring is just = that - it locks the left
    hand cup tight in position. The right hand cup = is the fixed cup, it is reverse thread, there are a
    few ways of getting = that out. Is the problem that you cant get the left-hand cup out? Cant = think
    that a cup which is hard steel would somehow break in two. Let the = group know - someone will have
    answer. But with respect not too clear = what you mean at the moment.

    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C31BA0.32E56E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
    http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
    6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Think you may have the terminology = wrong there. The=20 lock ring
    is just that - it locks the left hand cup tight in position. = The right=20 hand cup is the
    fixed cup, it is reverse thread, there are a few ways of = getting=20 that out. Is the problem
    that you cant get the left-hand cup out? Cant = think=20 that a cup which is hard steel would
    somehow break in two. Let the group = know -=20 someone will have answer. But with respect not
    too clear what you mean = at the=20 moment.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C31BA0.32E56E80--
     
  4. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Guest

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Sorry if my use of the word 'lockring' wasn't accurate but I couldn't = think of anything else to
    call it - let me know what it's really called!

    To describe what I see, there is a kind of threaded ring/cylinder on = each side of the bottom
    bracket (ie part of frame housing pedal axle & = bearings). The pedal axle passes through each ring,
    which also seem to = hold in the bearings (some of which fell out because of the breakage). = One
    threaded ring has indeed sheared into two leaving an inner ring = about 0.8 mm depth screwed in the
    bottom bracket. The missing outer edge = had notches that would have been used to unscrew.

    There are no cups involved - it might help if I mention we are talking = about an old racing bike
    (Raleigh Record), not an MTB.

    Hope this helps.

    Paul.

    "archierob" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
    news:[email protected]... Think you may have the terminology wrong there. The lock
    ring is just = that - it locks the left hand cup tight in position. The right hand cup = is the
    fixed cup, it is reverse thread, there are a few ways of getting = that out. Is the problem that
    you cant get the left-hand cup out? Cant = think that a cup which is hard steel would somehow
    break in two. Let the = group know - someone will have answer. But with respect not too clear =
    what you mean at the moment.

    ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C31BA6.33CB7A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
    content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML
    5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry if my use of the word 'lockring' = wasn't=20 accurate but I
    couldn't think of anything else to call it - let me know = what=20 it's really
    called!</FONT></DIV>
    <DV> </DIV>
    <DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To describe what I see, there is a kind = of threaded=20
    ring/cylinder on each side of the bottom bracket (ie part of frame = housing pedal=20 axle
    & bearings).</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The pedal axle = passes=20 through each
    ring, which also seem to hold in the bearings (some of = which=20 fell out because of
    the breakage). One threaded ring has indeed = sheared=20 into two leaving an inner ring
    about 0.8 mm depth screwed in the bottom = bracket.=20 The missing outer edge had notches
    that would have been used to=20 unscrew.</FONT></DIV>
    <DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are no cups involved - it might = help=20 if I mention
    we are talking about an old racing bike (Raleigh = Record), not=20 an MTB.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIX> </DIV>
    <DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hope this helps.</FONT></DIV>
    <DXI> </DIV>
    <DXII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paul.</FONT></DIV>
    <DXIII> </DIV>
    <DXIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
    MARGIN-RIGHT: = px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DXV>"archierob" <<A=20
    =
    href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</=
    A>>=20
    wrote in message <A=20
    =
    href=3D"news:[email protected]">news:[email protected]=
    r.pol.co.uk</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Think you may have the terminology = wrong there.=20 The lock
    ring is just that - it locks the left hand cup tight in = position. The=20 right hand cup is
    the fixed cup, it is reverse thread, there are a few = ways of=20 getting that out. Is the
    problem that you cant get the left-hand cup = out? Cant=20 think that a cup which is hard
    steel would somehow break in two. Let = the group=20 know - someone will have answer. But
    with respect not too clear what = you mean=20 at the
    moment.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

    ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C31BA6.33CB7A00--
     
  5. Archierob

    Archierob Guest

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Paul those are called cups! When you get them out you will see why!

    Its hard without seeing it, but If I think I've got it right, try = drilling a hole in the cup that
    is visible about 2 mm deep. This should = give you a purchase point, get a nail punch in at an angle
    and try to = drift the cup out, ie bash the punch with a hammer! Apply loadsa WD40.

    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31BB7.08901010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META
    http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML
    6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Paul those are called cups! When you = get them out=20 you will
    see why!</FONT></DIV>
    <DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
    <DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Its hard without seeing it, but If I = think I've got=20 it right,
    try drilling a hole in the cup that is visible about 2 mm = deep. This=20 should give you a
    purchase point, get a nail punch in at an angle and = try to=20 drift the cup out, ie bash the
    punch with a hammer! Apply loadsa=20 WD40.</FONT></DIV>
    <DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31BB7.08901010--
     
  6. Andy Dingley

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Fri, 16 May 2003 11:12:47 -0000, "Paul Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Took it in, the bike shop rang me back

    Almost my definition, that's not a "bike shop", it's a shop that sells bicycles.

    Go to somewhere were the staff are out of their teens - this isn't a hard fix. Buster Bloodvessel's
    website probably describes it somewhere: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html
     
  7. Paul Clarke

    Paul Clarke Guest

    Sorry... darn terminolgy... didn't look cup shaped from the outside!.

    Thanks for the suggestions... notching & prizing out might work. Andy's observations about my bike
    shop were entirely accurate, I do know someone that would have been a much better bet (and cheaper)
    but was a case of getting the broken bike about 5 miles to the other side of town. Might try him
    next if can't shift this myself...

    Thanks Paul.
     
  8. Nc

    Nc Guest

    "Paul Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Sorry... darn terminolgy... didn't look cup shaped from the outside!.
    >
    > Thanks for the suggestions... notching & prizing out might work. Andy's observations about my bike
    > shop were entirely accurate, I do know someone that would have been a much better bet (and
    > cheaper) but was a case of getting the broken bike about 5 miles to the other side of town. Might
    > try him next if can't shift this myself...

    Good luck with it, but if you get really stuck, I suggest the "cheap old replacement for frame" or
    a new bike.

    As others have said, the RH cup is a left-handed thread. If you can get a hardened cutting surface
    to attack the broken part you might shift it. Also, if you are not worried about the paint,
    attacking the remains with a butane gas torch (decorating grade, not welding!) might move it by the
    expansion and contraction of hot items.

    Having just spent two evenings faffing around trying to fit a triple chainset to my hack (old legs
    need lower gears for hills between home and railway station), I came to the conclusion that
    upgrading an old hack can be a mugs game. I've fitted a new BB axle, spacer washers on the RH cup to
    move it out, the front changer is deliberately a bit squint to make it reach the inner ring, the
    chain shortened so it's "sort of OK" round a triple provided I remember not to hit the "illegal"
    gears (rear changer being short-cage for a double chain set). It would be a lot easier to have
    something newer which came with three chainrings, decent brakes (how I love Weinmann side-pulls in
    the wet), decent tyre choice..... Test ride is tomorrow when the rain stops.

    NC
     
  9. John Olson

    John Olson Guest

    Paul

    Take to a real bike shop, and get them to put a torch on it. Soaking in WD-40 may work and a small
    chisel or punch might be able to shift it, but usually when things are stuck that badly then heat is
    the only real solution.

    The torch will destroy the paint on the frame, but that's a whole lot better than scrapping the
    bike. The man wielding the torch would have to be incredibly ham-fisted to heat a frame up enough to
    affect a brazed joint. Just have him heat up what's left of the cup until it glows orange-hot, and
    then let it cool. It will probably just spin out. If it refuses, the heat will have softened the
    metal to the point where a small hacksaw will cut it.

    Cheers

    John

    "Will Plummer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Despite being hardened, you should be able to find something that will cut it - perhaps a normal
    > hacksaw blade will be inadequate but you could try some thing like a tile saw that has Caborundum
    > grit rather than regular saw teeth. I am assuming that you want to cut along the bb axis and the
    > "collapse" the lockring in on itself.
    >
    > You could try finding a pair of thick washers that just fit inside the bottom bracket resting
    > either side of the broken lockring - a large nut
    and
    > bolt could then be tightened through this and if you arrange it so that further tightening is in
    > the normal unscrewing direction of the lockring,
    it
    > may just grip enough to twist it out.
    >
    > I would be wary of welding in this area - at the very least the heat would destroy the finish - if
    > your frame is brazed rather than welded, it may
    just
    > fall apart.
    >
    > Good Luck
    >
    >
    > "Paul Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > One of the lockrings seemed to be coming loose at the bottom bracket (ie area where the pedal
    > > axis is housed)...
    > >
    > > Took it in, the bike shop rang me back - the lockring has sheared into t
    wo
    > > with the outer half coming away and the inner section still screwed in
    > hard.
    > > They returned the bike to me as they couldn't get this out to do the
    > repair.
    > > So as things stand my old bike is a write-off unless I can come up with
    a
    > > way to shift it, I'm told it's rusted in and it won't cut because it's hardened.
    > >
    > > The two ideas to date are to weld a bar across the inside of the ring
    > about
    > > 3cm diameter, use pliers and unscrew (bikeshop's idea - not mine!) or to
    > try
    > > to get a notch in and 'tap' it out with hammer and cold chisel - haven't tried this yet. Would
    > > help if I had a good workshop - which I don't!.
    > >
    > > Anyone got any other ideas? - plan B is to get a cheap 2nd hand bike & plagiarise my old one -
    > > probably wouldn't cost much more than the repair (£25) but would be a lot of work to refit &
    > > reconfigure.
    > >
    > > Thanks, Paul
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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  10. andy_welch

    andy_welch New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
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    What kind of a shop just hands a job back because it's a bit difficult? What is the world coming to. Does nobody relish a challenge any more. They've got a shop with all the kit and they just hand the job back to you. Jeez!

    For a start you can tell us who these numpties are and vow never to send any business their way again.

    I'd also like to know whether the outer half was sheared off when you took the bike in. Sounds like they stuck the tool in, gave it a mighty heave then went "oh dear the outer part has sheared off, just give the bits back to him and tell him we can't fix it".

    Now to your problem. If the notches that are used to unscrew the cups are still visible I'd be tempted to try and use them. First off though, give it a good squirt of plus gas or WD40 and leave it overnight. Then get an old scredriver, put it in one of the notches and hit it with a big hammer. With luck you'll get the cup to unscrew. Failing that you can try to drill, cut or file a deeper notch for the screwdriver.

    A blowtorch on the bottom bracket with wet rags inside should also help. Stove enamel and powdercoat paint can both take a fair bit of heat.

    Good luck.

    Andy
     
  11. James Hodson

    James Hodson Guest

    On 20 May 2003 20:30:33 +0950, andy_welch <[email protected]> wrote:

    >What kind of a shop just hands a job back because it's a bit difficult? What is the world coming
    >to. Does nobody relish a challenge any more. They've got a shop with all the kit and they just hand
    >the job back to you. Jeez!
    >

    Hi Andy

    About a year or so ago the BB on my rigid Trek 4300 runaround bike failed as I was accelerating away
    from a set of traffic lights. The crunching and grinding noise was quite horrible. The sudden
    spinning of my legs was even worse.

    Anyway, my LBS, having talked to a Trek boddess, told me that the original sort of BB on my bike was
    no longer available. So, I ended up with a totally different style of BB & front mech.

    My point is, Andy, that my LBS went out of their way to sort out my particular problem.

    Support your LBS is what I say.

    James

    --
    It's a CD-ROM drive, not a cup holder.
     
  12. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On 20 May 2003 20:30:33 +0950, andy_welch <[email protected]> wrote:

    >What kind of a shop just hands a job back because it's a bit difficult?

    Bike shops have Kno Knowledge of proper bikes these days - if you can't remove the component, bin it
    and fish out another from your Shiman-O-Matic then they really haven't a clue.

    Anyway, if it's just the lockring then a hammer and cold chisel, judiciously applied, should have
    the desired effect. Strip frame, support on block of hardwood in the correct orientation to leave
    the impacts downwards, lockring just off the edge of the block, start gently but use a hammer of at
    least 3lb. Too light a hammer will cause Doom and Destruction, as will a blunt cold chisel. Guessing
    a bit, but that's based on my old cup-and-cone BB, and more than a little experience of recalcitrant
    mechanical components.

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
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