Bottom bracket - swap cup&cone for cartridge?

[David W.E. Roberts]

Hi,

servicing my Univega Rover 3.5 (yes, that was one very minor factor in the
purchase) and there has obviously been water in the bottom bracket.

I need one set of bearings (so obviously get both) and an axle.

However this may be a chance to upgrade to a cartridge bottom bracket.

Anyone know if the threads in a frame are standard for both setups?

TIA
Dave R

--

 

[Pete Biggs]

David W.E. Roberts wrote:
> Hi,
>
> servicing my Univega Rover 3.5 (yes, that was one very minor factor
> in the purchase) and there has obviously been water in the bottom
> bracket.
>
> I need one set of bearings (so obviously get both) and an axle.
>
> However this may be a chance to upgrade to a cartridge bottom bracket.
>
> Anyone know if the threads in a frame are standard for both setups?

There are different BB thread standards* but there isn't a seperate
standard for cartridge types. Modern "English" or "British" type
carrtridge BBs fit most frames, including frames many years old.

* http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html

~PB

 

[David W.E. Roberts]

"Pete Biggs" <pblackcherry{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David W.E. Roberts wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > servicing my Univega Rover 3.5 (yes, that was one very minor factor
> > in the purchase) and there has obviously been water in the bottom
> > bracket.
> >
> > I need one set of bearings (so obviously get both) and an axle.
> >
> > However this may be a chance to upgrade to a cartridge bottom bracket.
> >
> > Anyone know if the threads in a frame are standard for both setups?
>
> There are different BB thread standards* but there isn't a seperate
> standard for cartridge types. Modern "English" or "British" type
> carrtridge BBs fit most frames, including frames many years old.
>
> * http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html

Thanks for the URL - talked to my (fairly) LBS where I bought the bike.
Established that a cartridge should fit, and that the length was probably
127mm.
However it is 10 miles away (so fuel costs).

Checked with Halfords, and they only have a 122mm in stock.
The guy said that it would 'probably fit'.
This would bring the pedals etc. in by 2.5mm each side (not a massive
amount) and alter the front gear change settings so I am not sure that this
would be a wise move

What I have realised is that I would also have to buy a bottom bracket
fitting tool, so that ups the cost of the replacement a bit.

I assume that cartridge bottom brackets are an upgrade on cup&cone?

Or is a good cup&cone better than a bottom spec. cartridge?

Nothing is really easy, is it?

TIA
Dave R

 

[MSeries]

You need to ensure that the shorter BB axle doesn't cause your inner chainring (or the bolts) to hit the chainstay.

Generally a cartridge BB is considered to be better than a C&C, though I am sure some will dispute this, they are mean't to be sealed and need no adjustment, just tightend the 'cups', not too tight though and forget.

You may also need a tool to remove your old BB, the fixed cup may prove to be troublesome. Sheldon Brown has a good tip for a DIY fixed cup removal tool that I have used myself - only works for English BBs though. A cartridge tool is a good investment IMHO, a cheap one will be fine as it will not get used much and shouldn't take too much torque. Once you have this tool you are free to get replacement cartridges from anywhere and fit them yourself (provided you have the tools to remove the cranks, if you need one, too)

 

[Pete Biggs]

David W.E. Roberts wrote:
> Thanks for the URL - talked to my (fairly) LBS where I bought the
> bike. Established that a cartridge should fit, and that the length
> was probably 127mm.

It would be good to confirm that, although that's difficult without
removing cranks and measuring.

> However it is 10 miles away (so fuel costs).

I'd say it's worth the journey unless you're prepared to do the whole job
yourself, including removing cranks first to measure BB spindle. Some
Halfrauds brances are ok but I wouldn't be too trusting with this
job.......

> Checked with Halfords, and they only have a 122mm in stock.
> The guy said that it would 'probably fit'.
> This would bring the pedals etc. in by 2.5mm each side (not a massive
> amount) and alter the front gear change settings so I am not sure
> that this would be a wise move

It's enough difference to affect the chainline (angle of chain) and
/might/ make life difficult for the front derailleur. I think it's wise
to try and get the same length unless you sure you want different.

> What I have realised is that I would also have to buy a bottom bracket
> fitting tool, so that ups the cost of the replacement a bit.

But it could save on labour costs in the long run, and just nice to have
your own tools.

Inexpensive crank remover and BB tools can be bought from:
url:http://www.mwdyason.ltd.uk/shop.asp?no_category=23&text_company=TOOLS

You'll /probably/ need the "Bottom Bracket Wrench" to get old BB off, and
"Bottom Bracket Tool for Shimano" to fit new one.

Tip for cartridge BB tool when used with BBs with hollow spindles: Use a
rear wheel quick release skewer (with some washers/nuts as spacers)
through it to hold it on better.

> I assume that cartridge bottom brackets are an upgrade on cup&cone?

Debateable. Main advantages are that they don't require any maintenance
and are well sealed.

> Or is a good cup&cone better than a bottom spec. cartridge?

Yes (with the top end fancy ones) but there's not much to be gained from a
better bottom bracket. Even fairly inexpensive cartridge jobs tend to
work well enough. They're the norm for most bikes nowadays.

Shimano UN73 is a decent model. Available in 127.5 from
www.settlecycles.co.uk/shop @ £19.95 post free. You'd need to check that
Shimano BB's are compatible with your cranks. What make & model cranks
have you got?

Chain Reaction are a bit cheaper but don't seem to have any UN73's long
enough.

> Nothing is really easy, is it?

Would be boring if it was

~PB

 

[Richard Bates]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:05:13 +1000, in
<[email protected]>, MSeries
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Generally a cartridge BB is considered to be better than a C&C, though
>I am sure some will dispute this, they are mean't to be sealed and need
>no adjustment, just tightend the 'cups', not too tight though and
>forget.

I think you'll find cartridge BB's are heavier than C&C though.
--
"Any accidents or injuries in the last two years, sir"?

"Yes. I broke my hand last month, punching a no-win-no-fee lawyer
in the mouth".

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David W.E. Roberts
('[email protected]') wrote:

> I assume that cartridge bottom brackets are an upgrade on cup&cone?
>
> Or is a good cup&cone better than a bottom spec. cartridge?

A top spec cup and cone is as good as a top spec cartridge, and is
adjustable to boot. If you can set one up properly, there's a lot of
merit in a cup and cone bearing.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

to err is human, to lisp divine
;; attributed to Kim Philby, oddly enough.

 

[David W.E. Roberts]

"David W.E. Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> servicing my Univega Rover 3.5 (yes, that was one very minor factor in the
> purchase) and there has obviously been water in the bottom bracket.
>
> I need one set of bearings (so obviously get both) and an axle.
>
> However this may be a chance to upgrade to a cartridge bottom bracket.
>
> Anyone know if the threads in a frame are standard for both setups?


I have done the deed - at least I have taken the bits into the LBS and had
them measure, and got a replacement cartridge and a fitting tool.

We shall see how it performs.

BTW (thanks for all the responses) I knew that it was 'shagged' because I
had already disassembled it for cleaning and greasing, and found that one
shell of bearings and the matching part of the axle were both pitted -
apparently from water ingress.

So I have the tools to disassemble - and now another one to do cartridges.

Hopefully there is nothing else worn - amazing what you end up doing when
you decide to change the chain

Cheers
Dave R

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

David W.E. Roberts wrote:

> Hi,
>
> servicing my Univega Rover 3.5 (yes, that was one very minor factor in the
> purchase) and there has obviously been water in the bottom bracket.
>
> I need one set of bearings (so obviously get both) and an axle.
>
> However this may be a chance to upgrade to a cartridge bottom bracket.
>
> Anyone know if the threads in a frame are standard for both setups?

No problem. Do get the right length - mail order if necessary. I was
dubious about the whole cartridge thing when these first came out but
the better Shimano ones are pretty much indestructible - MBUK (before it
was ****) did some lake jumping and total immersion in water did them no
harm.

Do get the UN73 (XT quality) and avoid the UN53. I got through a UN53
in under 100 miles. It was probably a one-off rogue unit, but a seized
BB is not something I'd want to repeat - there is nothing you can do to
fix it at the roadside.

 

[Clive George]

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:410aadb0.0@entanet...

> Do get the UN73 (XT quality) and avoid the UN53. I got through a UN53
> in under 100 miles. It was probably a one-off rogue unit, but a seized
> BB is not something I'd want to repeat - there is nothing you can do to
> fix it at the roadside.

I'd say rogue - I'm happily using UN5x on the tandems, and the rear BB on
them gets a very hard time.

cheers,
clive

 

[David W.E. Roberts]

"David W.E. Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "David W.E. Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi,
> >
> > servicing my Univega Rover 3.5 (yes, that was one very minor factor in
the
> > purchase) and there has obviously been water in the bottom bracket.
> >
> > I need one set of bearings (so obviously get both) and an axle.
> >
> > However this may be a chance to upgrade to a cartridge bottom bracket.
<snip>
> I have done the deed - at least I have taken the bits into the LBS and had
> them measure, and got a replacement cartridge and a fitting tool.
>
> We shall see how it performs.
>
> BTW (thanks for all the responses) I knew that it was 'shagged' because I
> had already disassembled it for cleaning and greasing, and found that one
> shell of bearings and the matching part of the axle were both pitted -
> apparently from water ingress.

Cartridge is now in:

(1) The cartridge would not initially screw in - took it back to the LBS
rather than force it.
It turned out that the screw holding the underneath cable guides protruded
ito the bottom bracket tube enough to foul on a cartridge, but obviously not
a cup&cone as there is a big space in the middle.
The screw is now spaced by 2 * M5 washers

However, lesson learned.
Obvious once you have seen it.
It may help some other poor soul in the future.

(2) Looking at the setup I realised that there are a load of hollow tubes
which open into the bottom bracket tube, so there is potential for water to
enter the frame elsewhere and migrate to the bottom bracket.
This, to me, is the greatest weakness of a cup&cone setup and justifies the
replacement with a cartridge.

Cheers
Dave R

 

[Sheldon Brown]

A Leicaphile wrote:

> You may also need a tool to remove your old BB, the fixed cup may prove
> to be troublesome. Sheldon Brown has a good tip for a DIY fixed cup
> removal tool that I have used myself -

Thanks! http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips

> only works for English BBs though.

That's not correct. You just tighten the bolt from the opposite side,
for a wrong-way-threaded continental fixed cup.

Sheldon "Universality" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. |
| Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Pete Biggs]

David W.E. Roberts wrote:
> Cartridge is now in:
>
> (1) The cartridge would not initially screw in - took it back to the
> LBS rather than force it.
> It turned out that the screw holding the underneath cable guides
> protruded ito the bottom bracket tube enough to foul on a cartridge,
> but obviously not a cup&cone as there is a big space in the middle.
> The screw is now spaced by 2 * M5 washers

On one bike I found the screw interefered with fitting the BB but could be
screwed in again once the (cartridge) BB was fitted. Thinking about it
now, I don't understand it but it worked!

> (2) Looking at the setup I realised that there are a load of hollow
> tubes which open into the bottom bracket tube, so there is potential
> for water to enter the frame elsewhere and migrate to the bottom
> bracket.
> This, to me, is the greatest weakness of a cup&cone setup and
> justifies the replacement with a cartridge.

Yes, and a tip that some people suggest for all sorts of BBs is to drill a
small hole in bottom of shell to let any water drain out.

~PB

 

[Jon Senior]

Pete Biggs pblackcherry{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc opined the following...
> On one bike I found the screw interefered with fitting the BB but could be
> screwed in again once the (cartridge) BB was fitted. Thinking about it
> now, I don't understand it but it worked!

Because you probably screwed it into the casing of the cartridge! It'll
have done no harm unless it punctured it.

Jon

 

[Pete Biggs]

Jon Senior wrote:

>> On one bike I found the screw interefered with fitting the BB but
>> could be screwed in again once the (cartridge) BB was fitted.
>> Thinking about it now, I don't understand it but it worked!
>
> Because you probably screwed it into the casing of the cartridge!
> It'll have done no harm unless it punctured it.

Ooh my good gawd! Probably no harm done even if it has punctured as
the casing is just a protective sleeve, really, and I doubt water would
get in through the puncture... Well, let me fool myself that's true:
ignorance being bliss

~PB

 

[Jon Senior]

Pete Biggs pblackcherry{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc opined the following...
> Ooh my good gawd! Probably no harm done even if it has punctured as
> the casing is just a protective sleeve, really, and I doubt water would
> get in through the puncture... Well, let me fool myself that's true:
> ignorance being bliss

Just remember to unscrew it when you change the cartridge! Even if it
has punctured it while it remains in place it will continue to seal the
unit. I've never taken one apart but I suspect that cartridge bearings
are flooded with grease so it should take a bit of a washing before it
became an issue anyway.

Jon

 

[David W.E. Roberts]

"Pete Biggs" <pblackcherry{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David W.E. Roberts wrote:
> > Cartridge is now in:
> >
> > (1) The cartridge would not initially screw in - took it back to the
> > LBS rather than force it.
> > It turned out that the screw holding the underneath cable guides
> > protruded ito the bottom bracket tube enough to foul on a cartridge,
> > but obviously not a cup&cone as there is a big space in the middle.
> > The screw is now spaced by 2 * M5 washers
>
> On one bike I found the screw interefered with fitting the BB but could be
> screwed in again once the (cartridge) BB was fitted. Thinking about it
> now, I don't understand it but it worked!
<snip>

If you are very lucky then the interference was very marginal.
Thus when screwing the cartridge in it will align with the centre of the
threads and just foul the end of the screw.
When the screw is backed off and tightened again after the cartridge is in
it will push the cartridge off centre and take up any lateral play in the
threads - we are talking a very small movement here.
So you may be lucky.
Then again, probably best to take the screw out now and fit an M5 washer
before refitting.
Then you won't forget when you are leaning on the spanner to get your sticky
cartridge out

Cheers
Dave R