Bradley Wiggins: a pro cyclist with integrity.

[thunder]

No. But they should be. It is cheating.

FF, Robbie Mcewen has never been a track rider. He was a bmx rider, went to the road and was inducted into the AIS. Never ever been a track rider. When he was part of the road squad, he may well have done some intervals on fixies, but as far as I know, he has never competed on the track in international competition. In the early nineties he may have done a points race in the national titles, or some carnivals, but I am not aware of them if he did.

As far as I know, most of the Australians are track riders except

Vogels: think always been a roadie, father is Dutch, might have done a smilar program to Mcewen re: occasional track
White: see above, not same father

Cadel Evans. MTB
Trent Lowe. MTB
Matthew Lloyd. Rowing/triathlon
Peter Hatton. MTB

But basically all the Australians have done both until they go pro, and then only the best trackies maintain it, to cherry pick those Olympic gold.

 

[Flyer's.Finale!]

FF, Robbie Mcewen has never been a track rider. He was a bmx rider, went to the road and was inducted into the AIS. Never ever been a track rider. When he was part of the road squad, he may well have done some intervals on fixies, but as far as I know, he has never competed on the track in international competition. In the early nineties he may have done a points race in the national titles, or some carnivals, but I am not aware of them if he did.

Let me enlighten you then thunder from down under. BMX to TDF via a Velodrome!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/interviews/robbie98.html

Scratch races, points races, and Keirens.

How many track races did Lance Pharmstrong do before he retooled with:
chemo, surgery, radiation, hGH, IGF, testosterone, EPO, Deca Durabolin, insulin, cortisone and research products such as Actovegin?

Anyone can retool for endurance. Going in the opposite direction is much tougher.

The track is for speed, power, steroids and amphetamines. The TDF is for trauma and anemia care patients.

 

[wolfix]

You cannot re-tool yourself enough to go from a trackie expert to a GT winner......With any drugs. Your parents determined the type of muscles you have...... [Fast twitch vs Slow twitch.] I competed in both ....... I trained very hard for the road..... I was lousy..... I could not climb, I could not TT for distances...... but I tried......For years.

If you looked at me, you could tell I was built for the track .....Very heavily muscled...... No matter how hard I tried to lose it.....I couldn't.

In a field sprint in a short flat crit...... I lost very few. I know I was very fast in a sprint when I beat a young guy who went on to win a few euro races....such as the TDF 3 times and the Worlds.

I do not train anymore at 50 years old..... But give me a month, I bet I could take most non professional roadies in a 300m event.

But your sister could beat me up a hill....... I blame my parents for the DNA that gave me a over abundence of fast twitch fibers and a complete lack of slow twitch.......

No way drugs could change your muscle type......

 

[Flyer's.Finale!]

Call your buddy Pharmstrong. He retooled from a DNF to a winner.

Wiggins could try that too. But why would he?

Chemo, radiation, starvation will change your fatso frame.

Wolfie---I watched Mr. McGoo retool himself before my eyes.

I witnessed an NFL athlete retool into a one-day road sprinter.

I witnessed another football conditioned athlete move to triathlons, then to road then to track to win many medald in the points race, pursuit, team pursuit and Kilo. Kilo being the weakest event due to a slow start (first 15-20 seconds).

I witnessed Mark McGwire go from an all rounder into a slugger. Same with Barry Bonds and Ken Caminitti.

You guys crack me up. You wax nostalgic abnout Grand Tour Stage Racing as if doping has not forever destroyed it with 'anti-wasting and anti-anemia hormones'.

GT racing cannot be compared with Eddie Merkx's amphetamine, morphine, heroin and cortisone era.

 

[thunder]

Call your buddy Pharmstrong. He retooled from a DNF to a winner.

Wiggins could try that too. But why would he?

Chemo, radiation, starvation will change your fatso frame.

Wolfie---I watched Mr. McGoo retool himself before my eyes.

I witnessed an NFL athlete retool into a one-day road sprinter.

I witnessed another football conditioned athlete move to triathlons, then to road then to track to win many medald in the points race, pursuit, team pursuit and Kilo. Kilo being the weakest event due to a slow start (first 15-20 seconds).

I witnessed Mark McGwire go from an all rounder into a slugger. Same with Barry Bonds and Ken Caminitti.

You guys crack me up. You wax nostalgic abnout Grand Tour Stage Racing as if doping has not forever destroyed it with 'anti-wasting and anti-anemia hormones'.

GT racing cannot be compared with Eddie Merkx's amphetamine, morphine, heroin and cortisone era.

I hear you, and some has merit.

But your whole hypothesis is "can". They "can". But if they did, then those ordinary riders, would all be extraordinary like Pharmstrong.

And Mcgee, he has a clause in his contract, supposedly, for no injections to be administered by any team doc.

The guys hunger flats would be solved by one dose of Ferrari's engine in one sec. Thats what makes his performance, and Moncoutie's special. There are not many clean riders competing at the front of the field.

 

[poulidor]

Oh yeah! Gee whiz! I forgot to account for the squared function of the drag! That would easily reduce a 25% increase in power to a mere 3% increase in speed! What was I thinking??? PUH-LEEZE!!!

You forgot to use a stronger motor at 100% along the road, you need to have a bigger reservoir or to be able to refilled it for the race.
Why TDF riders are leighter at the end of TDF? Because their bodies were not able to refill their "reservoirs"! So even if you have a bigger motor, you can use it at any time!
But on TT, the top contender are using it at 100%, so you can do some comparaison on their speed !
If you prefer not trust me, you have better to make some search on the net, we will be able to find at least 3 differents research studies on EPO (or blood doping) on at least 3 durations (short duration, 3 weeks and long period).

 

[meehs]

You forgot to use a stronger motor at 100% along the road, you need to have a bigger reservoir or to be able to refilled it for the race.
Why TDF riders are leighter at the end of TDF? Because their bodies were not able to refill their "reservoirs"! So even if you have a bigger motor, you can use it at any time!
But on TT, the top contender are using it at 100%, so you can do some comparaison on their speed !
If you prefer not trust me, you have better to make some search on the net, we will be able to find at least 3 differents research studies on EPO (or blood doping) on at least 3 durations (short duration, 3 weeks and long period).

You forgot the squaring factor of the drag, you forgot to use a stronger motor than 100% along the road (whatever the hell that means), blah, blah blah. These factors are true for for both "clean" riders and "dirty" riders and there's no way they account for reducing a 25% perfomance increase to a 3% difference on the clock. You're picking nits and missing my point entirely. The bottom line is that the results in GT's and other big races do not support the fact that some riders are doped and some riders are clean. Not if using PED's results in a 25% increase in performance. No way! Even if they only result in a 10% increase in power! It's just not possible. Like I said before, the difference between the top finisher and the last place finisher in any given race is usually something like 3%.

What I'm saying is that there's NO WAY that both of the following statements can be true:

"PED's result in a 25% increases in a riders performance"

"Some riders in the peleton are clean and others are dirty"

You can oviously believe what you want to believe poulidor and I respect your opinion. But in my opinion, if both of the above statements were true, the so called "two speeds" of the peleton would be a lot more dramatically different than they are. That's the bottom line. No one is going to convince me that the winner is enjoying a 25% increase in performance from the PED's he's taking and that the last place guy is clean even though he's only about 3% or 4% behind on the clock. Try all you like, but you're not going to convince me. Or anyone else with half a brain...

 

[meehs]

Somebody needs to get down to the velodrome and throw down some efforts.

Road stages won by a superior track rider (AIS alum):

Robbie McEwen. 88 GT victories!
11 TDF stage wins
three TDF points jerseys

Grand Tour winners engage in 'wasting activities' which explains their extreme doping.
Sprinter/pursuiters such as Mcgee, McEwen, Wiggins must avoid the muscle destruction that come from grinding out a 21 day pharmaceutical tempo race.

Yes McEwen has won some individual stages and so have a lot of other former track riders. But what Lim and I are saying is that there has never been a top track rider who was able to make the switch to success in GT General Classification (i.e. winning the race not just a stage).

 

[limerickman]

Yes McEwen has won some individual stages and so have a lot of other former track riders. But what Lim and I are saying is that there has never been a top track rider who was able to make the switch to success in GT General Classification (i.e. winning the race not just a stage).

Exactly Meehs.

And I think Wolf concurs as well.

 

[helmutRoole2]

I'm backing off a statement I made earlier. I think it's possible Wiggins is clean. He's a big time ectomorph so likely steroids aren't in play. I've never seen him ride, but my guess is his feel for the bike is what sets him apart and so it is possible he's not doped. I think it's possible that the riders who would normally be great riders are merely okay on the roads because they are great but not doped and so they are beaten by lesser doped riders. But like Jim Brown in American football, there's only a handful per generation.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Exactly Meehs.

And I think Wolf concurs as well.

I agree as well. Athletes, once they're integrated into a program, are going to be slotted into the areas that best fit their skill set. If they were ever stage-race contenders they wouldn't be on the track to begin with.

 

[meehs]

I think it's possible that the riders who would normally be great riders are merely okay on the roads because they are great but not doped and so they are beaten by lesser doped riders. But like Jim Brown in American football, there's only a handful per generation.

Interesting possibility! Although when it some to the GT's I'm inclined to agree with FF in that it's likely that even the guys at the back of the pack are on PED's just to finish the race. Let alone finish within 3% or 4% of the winner's time! And like FF said before, certain levels of "preparation" are probably so widely accepted at this point that the riders themselves don't even consider it cheating and in fact they consider themselves to be "clean". It's all relative I suppose.

 

[helmutRoole2]

And like FF said before, certain levels of "preparation" are probably so widely accepted at this point that the riders themselves don't even consider it cheating and in fact they consider themselves to be "clean". It's all relative I suppose.

I'm sure this is true. This is Lemond's way of thinking and his justification for attacking Armstrong for doing the same things he did, just to better effect.

 

[Flyer's.Finale!]

Exactly Meehs.

And I think Wolf concurs as well.

Exactly wrong!


There once was a freak named Viatchestav Ekimov who was bred for track racing at the Leningrad Velodrome. Ekimov is PROOF that the VELODROME is a breeding ground for SUCCESSFUL road racers----pusuiting, in particular, is a discipline that hints at a rider's potential.

Ekimov won an Olympic Gold medal in 1988, team pursuit

Ekimov was the Junior World Champion, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, in the 4,000 meter pursuit

Ekimov also completed 15 Tour de France's and won stages too.

He won the Tour du Ponte stage race for Wordperfect

He murdered my friends in the Baby Giro GT while still an amateur

You guys can't admit that the best place to develope racing skills is a Velodrome, not a loney Alpine wind swept pass and that specific training, doping and motivation makes a winner.

 

[helmutRoole2]

What?

So the best Grande Tour champions come from the... track?

And, who were your friends at the baby giro? USA riders? Did they race as pros anywhere? Where they on the national team? If so, they're dopers. Do you still count them among your friends?

FF, you don't really race, do you? I mean, you're spouting some insane bs right here.

 

[meehs]

Exactly wrong!


There once was a freak named Viatchestav Ekimov who was bred for track racing at the Leningrad Velodrome. Ekimov is PROOF that the VELODROME is a breeding ground for SUCCESSFUL road racers----pusuiting, in particular, is a discipline that hints at a rider's potential.

Ekimov won an Olympic Gold medal in 1988, team pursuit

Ekimov was the Junior World Champion, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, in the 4,000 meter pursuit

Ekimov also completed 15 Tour de France's and won stages too.

He won the Tour du Ponte stage race for Wordperfect

He murdered my friends in the Baby Giro GT while still an amateur

You guys can't admit that the best place to develope racing skills is a Velodrome, not a loney Alpine wind swept pass and that specific training, doping and motivation makes a winner.

I have no problem admitting that the track does produce some good road racers. But it does not and has not produced a top GC roadman. They win some stages. They win some single day races. They support the "real" roadmen it the GT's. And okay Ekimov won the Tour du Ponte.

The point is that the track has never produced a consistent GT GC contender. I don't mean to drag out the argument but sometimes once you take a side FF, you just defend it tooth and nail even when you're clearly wrong. And this time you're clearly wrong! I do realize that you think you never are.

Yes Viatchestav Ekimov competed in 15 TdF's and has won stages. Other former track stars have had similar results in GT's. We've already talked about McEwen. But Ekimov has never contended for a GT victory. And neither have any other former track stars. Not with any kind of consistency at least.

Consistent Grand Tour General Classification cyclists, the real roadmen, are a completely different breed than track stars. And no one has successfully made the transition. That's all there is to it.

 

[poulidor]

You forgot the squaring factor of the drag, you forgot to use a stronger motor than 100% along the road (whatever the hell that means), blah, blah blah. These factors are true for for both "clean" riders and "dirty" riders and there's no way they account for reducing a 25% perfomance increase to a 3% difference on the clock. You're picking nits and missing my point entirely. The bottom line is that the results in GT's and other big races do not support the fact that some riders are doped and some riders are clean. Not if using PED's results in a 25% increase in performance. No way! Even if they only result in a 10% increase in power! It's just not possible. Like I said before, the difference between the top finisher and the last place finisher in any given race is usually something like 3%.

What I'm saying is that there's NO WAY that both of the following statements can be true:

"PED's result in a 25% increases in a riders performance"

"Some riders in the peleton are clean and others are dirty"

You can oviously believe what you want to believe poulidor and I respect your opinion. But in my opinion, if both of the above statements were true, the so called "two speeds" of the peleton would be a lot more dramatically different than they are. That's the bottom line. No one is going to convince me that the winner is enjoying a 25% increase in performance from the PED's he's taking and that the last place guy is clean even though he's only about 3% or 4% behind on the clock. Try all you like, but you're not going to convince me. Or anyone else with half a brain...

But even if you use just one half of brain you can easily understand that:
if every day you have only 100 liter of fuel for your car and have to drive 1000km, even if you put a 2 more bigger motor in your car, you could not make a big better time ! You have to find the optimum between power used and consumption.
So even a rider has 20-25% more power, he only can use it on a short period because he is using too many energy and his body is not able to rebuild his reserve day after day! It's why a clean rider can follow a doped rider with 20-25% more power on a GT!
Look at on a short period : a passe!
Alpe d'Huez

• 37'35 - Marco Pantani, 1997
• 38'01 - Lance Armstrong, 2001
• 39'45 - Miguel Indurain, 1991
• 48'00 - Bernard Hinault et Greg Lemond, 1986

Time of Marco is only 78% of Greg's time ! 22% of gain .

A clean rider would have the biggest difficulty to win a Classic where the power is preponderant like PR, or LBL !

 

[meehs]

So even a rider has 20-25% more power, he only can use it on a short period because he is using too many energy and his body is not able to rebuild his reserve day after day! It's why a clean rider can follow a doped rider with 20-25% more power on a GT!

Where'd you come-up with this complete and utter hogwash??? If you take two identical riders and give one of them 25% more power, the guy with more power will beat the guy with less, day after day, on any type of course. If you race two identical motorcycles one with 200cc displacement and another with 250cc displacement the 250 will beat the 200 day after day on any type of course. You're just making up **** to support you flimsy argument at this point.

Time of Marco is only 78% of Greg's time ! 22% of gain .

Huh? Erm... Thanks for making my point.

Edit: I just reread our discussion and I think maybe you really are missing my point or not understanding what it is I'm saying poulidor. I'm not saying that it's not possible that the "new" PED's could result in huge gains (even 25% or whatever). I don't know! All I'm saying is that if that's the case, it's not possible that the last place guy isn't taking them and the top place is taking them. That just doesn't make sense. In order for the times to be as close as they are, even the last place guy would have to be gaining some benefit from PED's or he'd be losing by a lot more than 3%! The difference between him and the winner would be more like the difference you pointed out between LeMond and Pantani.

 

[poulidor]

Edit: I just reread our discussion and I think maybe you really are missing my point or not understanding what it is I'm saying poulidor. I'm not saying that it's not possible that the "new" PED's could result in huge gains (even 25% or whatever). I don't know! All I'm saying is that if that's the case, it's not possible that the last place guy isn't taking them and the top place is taking them. That just doesn't make sense. In order for the times to be as close as they are, even the last place guy would have to be gaining some benefit from PED's or he'd be losing by a lot more than 3%! The difference between him and the winner would be more like the difference you pointed out between LeMond and Pantani.

OK, but you have better to use the last hour of a race, because of every rider needs to save calorie to be able to use it with his max power.

I was just trying to explain why 2 same riders, one clean and one full doped rider (+20-25% power more) there is less than 20-25% time (if we overlook the drag) between them on a GT! There is other limits like product and used calories by day which limit the gap. This explanation is for the LA believers who often make this fault.

 

[Flyer's.Finale!]

I have no problem admitting that the track does produce some good road racers. But it does not and has not produced a top GC roadman. They win some stages. They win some single day races. They support the "real" roadmen it the GT's. And okay Ekimov won the Tour du Ponte.

The point is that the track has never produced a consistent GT GC contender. I don't mean to drag out the argument but sometimes once you take a side FF, you just defend it tooth and nail even when you're clearly wrong. And this time you're clearly wrong! I do realize that you think you never are.

Yes Viatchestav Ekimov competed in 15 TdF's and has won stages. Other former track stars have had similar results in GT's. We've already talked about McEwen. But Ekimov has never contended for a GT victory. And neither have any other former track stars. Not with any kind of consistency at least.

Consistent Grand Tour General Classification cyclists, the real roadmen, are a completely different breed than track stars. And no one has successfully made the transition. That's all there is to it.

Greg Lemond's modest TDF successes were sharpened at the TRACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lemond was a phenomenal track rider, from Helyer Park to the Junior Worlds.

btw: a GT rider is NOT a roadie. A GT rider is a freak of a different kind.

Meehs, again you are wrong about me being wrong. I am not wrong.