Brake blocks and rim wear.

[Roger Thorpe]

What has changed to make rim wear such a problem nowadays? A decade or so ago I used to be able to
ride for a year or so on coloured rims before the dyed layer even began to wear off. That was with
Aztecs and Scott Malthauser blocks. Are modern blocks harder or the rims softer? Aren't they
anodised anymore?

--
Roger Thorpe

My email address is spamtrapped. You can work it out!

 

[Ian Walker]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:12:07 +0000, Roger Thorpe <[email protected]> wrote:

> What has changed to make rim wear such a problem nowadays? A decade or so ago I used to be able to
> ride for a year or so on coloured rims before the dyed layer even began to wear off. That was with
> Aztecs and Scott Malthauser blocks. Are modern blocks harder or the rims softer? Aren't they
> anodised anymore?
>

I believe that blocks are harder these days, which is one of the reasons why they tend to
squeak so much.

--
Ian Walker, Department of Psychology, University of Bath. Remove the yummy paste in my address to
reply. Homepage: http://www.drianwalker.com

 

[Myra Vaninwegen]

Rory wrote:
>Ian Walker <[email protected]> wrote
>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:12:07 +0000, Roger Thorpe <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > What has changed to make rim wear such a problem nowadays? A
decade or so
>> > ago I used to be able to ride for a year or so on coloured rims
before
>> > the dyed layer even began to wear off. That was with Aztecs and
Scott
>> > Malthauser blocks. Are modern blocks harder or the rims softer?
Aren't
>> > they anodised anymore?
>> >
>>
>> I believe that blocks are harder these days, which is one of the
reasons
>> why they tend to squeak so much.
>
> And not just for the fun of it: they stop better and actually work in the wet, but they don't half
> eat up rims.

New brake blocks stop you better than Scott Matthauser brake blocks? Definitely not, seeing as the
best brake blocks out there are the Kool Stop salmon pads which are the same as the Scott
Matthauser!

> MeinJew, I've normally collapsed or buckled the wheel before the rims are useless, I must learn to
> build/true wheels one of these days.

I've worn out a few rims off-road riding, but never on-road riding. Wheelbuilding is a great skill
and something I really enjoy, so I'd recommend it to anyone.

> Anyone know if ceramic rims are worthwhile?

Not in my opinion. You are unlikely to find a brake pad that will work as well on ceramic rims as
Kool Stop salmon pads work on plain rims. Just learn to build wheels and replace rims when they
wear thin.

-Myra

 

[Rory]

Ian Walker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:12:07 +0000, Roger Thorpe <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > What has changed to make rim wear such a problem nowadays? A decade or so ago I used to be able
> > to ride for a year or so on coloured rims before the dyed layer even began to wear off. That was
> > with Aztecs and Scott Malthauser blocks. Are modern blocks harder or the rims softer? Aren't
> > they anodised anymore?
> >
>
> I believe that blocks are harder these days, which is one of the reasons why they tend to squeak
> so much.

And not just for the fun of it: they stop better and actually work in the wet, but they don't half
eat up rims. MeinJew, I've normally collapsed or buckled the wheel before the rims are useless, I
must learn to build/true wheels one of these days. Anyone know if ceramic rims are worthwhile?

 

[Peter Clinch]

Myra VanInwegen wrote:
>
> Not in my opinion. You are unlikely to find a brake pad that will work as well on ceramic rims as
> Kool Stop salmon pads work on plain rims. Just learn to build wheels and replace rims when they
> wear thin.

Or look further into discs. ISTM that disc brakes have been going through the same evolution as MTB
suspension: from initially being marginally useful and very exotic and expensive to simply damn good
and affordable to.

I've got Vs on my tourer and they work pretty well, but trying the hot version of the same bike with
hydraulic discs I was *very* impressed indeed. Easily the best braking system I've ever used on a
bike, with not only power to spare but easy to modulate with it (Magura hydraulics IIRC). If someone
destroyed my bike but missed me, the replacement would have discs specced for factory fit.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Pete Biggs]

Roger Thorpe wrote:
> What has changed to make rim wear such a problem nowadays?

I don't know if it is really. The old farts (oops, I mean experts on rec.bicycles.tech) would blame
machined rims - rims like Mavic Open Pro which have their sidewalls machined. They supposedly have
uneven (!?) and thinner sidewalls than the likes of the old MA2. But many cheaper rims are still
not machined.

> A decade or so ago I used to be able to ride for a year or so on coloured rims before the dyed
> layer even began to wear off. That was with Aztecs and Scott Malthauser blocks. Are modern blocks
> harder or the rims softer?

A lot of modern blocks are so soft that they disintegrate after a few wet rides, so that isn't it.

You may be using different brakes, riding in different places, different weathers, time passing
quicker.... I don't know!

> Aren't they anodised anymore?

Most rims now are soft anodised (to give the finish a better appearance, and make them easier to
clean) but _braking_surfaces_ of standard versions are not anodised. If you want that (I don't,
they're ****, imo), look out for "ceramic" or "CD" versions (best used with special blocks). But be
warned that these rims are more prone to cracking. Read this from one the best OF's:
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8c.2.html

~PB

 

[Just Zis Guy]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Myra VanInwegen wrote:
>> Not in my opinion. You are unlikely to find a brake pad that will work as well on ceramic rims as
>> Kool Stop salmon pads work on plain rims. Just learn to build wheels and replace rims when they
>> wear thin.

> Or look further into discs. ISTM that disc brakes have been going through the same evolution as
> MTB suspension: from initially being marginally useful and very exotic and expensive to simply
> damn good and affordable to.

I agree about the superiority of discs (not yet fitted my new Kool Stops as I've not had the MTB out
for a while).

Note that they are not necessarily a good thing for wedgies, though.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104

 

[Roger Thorpe]

Myra VanInwegen wrote:

> New brake blocks stop you better than Scott Matthauser brake blocks? Definitely not, seeing as the
> best brake blocks out there are the Kool Stop salmon pads which are the same as the Scott
> Matthauser!
>
> -Myra
If you're serious that Kool Stop is the same as Scott Malthauser then that's the best news I've had
all week. According to google Kools are all over the place while when I've asked for Scotts I just
got a blank stare. Thanks

--
Roger Thorpe

My email address is spamtrapped. You can work it out!

 

[Peter B]

"Roger Thorpe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Aren't they anodised anymore?

It's generally accepted that braking improves when the hard anodising wears off.

FWIW my last road bike had the original Campag blocks for 10 years and same Open 4CD rims for 9, the
rims had deep scoring but patches of anodising still showed and the blocks were barely worn. My
winter hacks 221 rims are showing some wear after 6 or 7 years and has gone through a few pairs of
blocks. I'm currently in the process of replacing the rear rim on my mtb, also a 221, after 3 years
and several pairs of pads. The road bike was not only older but had covered many, many, more miles.

The conclusion I draw from this is that if you want your blocks and rims to last a long time only
ride on the road in fair weather

Pete

 

[Pete Biggs]

Roger Thorpe wrote:
> If you're serious that Kool Stop is the same as Scott Malthauser then that's the best news I've
> had all week.

They do use the same compound, but that's strictly only the salmon coloured ones. For comfirmation
of this fact, see: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html (scroll down)

Kool Stops are available in the UK from: www.wiggle.co.uk/ (I'm not going out of my way to plug this
company, honest!!)

> According to google Kools are all over the place

Yeah, but not the versions you want.

~PB

 

[Rory]

[email protected] (Myra VanInwegen) wrote:
> New brake blocks stop you better than Scott Matthauser brake blocks? Definitely not, seeing as the
> best brake blocks out there are the Kool Stop salmon pads which are the same as the Scott
> Matthauser!

Kool Stop Reds is what I use, and they do in the rims pretty quickly (OK, 750m descent per daily
commute, 200m with loaded trailer, makes them work). Are the Salmon different? Do they do a
Magura version?

> > MeinJew, I've normally collapsed or buckled the wheel before the rims are useless, I must learn
> > to build/true wheels one of these days.
> I've worn out a few rims off-road riding, but never on-road riding. Wheelbuilding is a great skill
> and something I really enjoy, so I'd recommend it to anyone.

I think the extra load on the axle from the trailer does em in, plus hefty honking on the ups - it
starts with one spoke snapping and then they all start popping. I'm thinking of trying a tandem rear
next time (42 spoke?) to see if there's more life in it. I'll take your recommendation on the
wheel-building though (got a SON hub dynamo lined up for next winter).

 

[Rory]

Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Myra VanInwegen wrote:
> >
> > Not in my opinion. You are unlikely to find a brake pad that will work as well on ceramic rims
> > as Kool Stop salmon pads work on plain rims. Just learn to build wheels and replace rims when
> > they wear thin.
>
> Or look further into discs. ISTM that disc brakes have been going through the same evolution as
> MTB suspension: from initially being marginally useful and very exotic and expensive to simply
> damn good and affordable to.
>
> I've got Vs on my tourer and they work pretty well, but trying the hot version of the same bike
> with hydraulic discs I was *very* impressed indeed. Easily the best braking system I've ever used
> on a bike, with not only power to spare but easy to modulate with it (Magura hydraulics IIRC). If
> someone destroyed my bike but missed me, the replacement would have discs specced for factory fit.

I've never had discs on my own (push) bikes, but the ones I've borrowed (Hayes, Magura) didn't
impress: they seem to drag - m'bike discs rely on slight warp in the disc to push the pistons back
out after application, OK on my 125bhp TL1000, less good on my 48 VO2-max legs), on long descents
(like coming down a pass) they heat up and fade (just as you come to the hair-pin you realise they
ain't biting like they should), plus I didn't find the modulation on a par with my Magura rim
brakes. YMMV. Are there push-bike discs systems that are better?

 

[Clive George]

"Rory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Myra VanInwegen) wrote:
> > New brake blocks stop you better than Scott Matthauser brake blocks? Definitely not, seeing as
> > the best brake blocks out there are the Kool Stop salmon pads which are the same as the Scott
> > Matthauser!
>
> Kool Stop Reds is what I use, and they do in the rims pretty quickly (OK, 750m descent per daily
> commute, 200m with loaded trailer, makes them work). Are the Salmon different? Do they do a Magura
> version?

Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. Red are the same compound as the salmon. Grey and green
are for ceramic rims.

cheers, clive

 

[Just Zis Guy]

Rory wrote:

> I've never had discs on my own (push) bikes, but the ones I've borrowed (Hayes, Magura) didn't
> impress: they seem to drag

Badly adjusted - there are shims and things on the Juiles which allow you to get the pads clear of
the discs. The Julies are more troublesome than Hope, but apparently the new four-pot Shimano ones
are the dog's danglies (says Neil at the bike shop).

> - m'bike discs rely on slight warp in the disc to push the pistons back out after application

As do cars, but on pedal cycle discs the pads are mechanically retracted from the disc. I didn't
know that either until I started asking around.

> plus I didn't find the modulation on a par with my Magura rim brakes. YMMV.

Mine definitely does I find the discs dramatically less likely to fade than any rim brake I've
ever used - plus you don't run the risk of cooking your front tyre.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104

 

[Pete Biggs]

Clive George wrote:
> "Rory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Kool Stop Reds is what I use, and they do in the rims pretty quickly (OK, 750m descent per daily
>> commute, 200m with loaded trailer, makes them work). Are the Salmon different? Do they do a
>> Magura version?
>
> Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. Red are the same compound as the salmon.

Incorrect.

Blue, Silver, Yellow, Red = "All Condition Compound" Salmon = "Extreme Conditions Compound"
http://www.koolstop.com/brakes/brakes.html#chart

"The "secret ingredient" is iron oxide, a.k.a. "rust", which is what gave them their distinctive
color." http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html

~PB

 

[Clive George]

"Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George wrote:
> > "Rory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> Kool Stop Reds is what I use, and they do in the rims pretty quickly (OK, 750m descent per
> >> daily commute, 200m with loaded trailer, makes them work). Are the Salmon different? Do they do
> >> a Magura version?
> >
> > Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. Red are the same compound as the salmon.
>
> Incorrect.

Oh no it isn't. You may wish to read what I wrote above more carefully.

clive

 

[Pete Biggs]

Clive George wrote:
> "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Clive George wrote:
>>> "Rory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> Kool Stop Reds is what I use, and they do in the rims pretty quickly (OK, 750m descent per
>>>> daily commute, 200m with loaded trailer, makes them work). Are the Salmon different? Do they do
>>>> a Magura version?
>>>
>>> Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. Red are the same compound as the salmon.
>>
>> Incorrect.
>
> Oh no it isn't. You may wish to read what I wrote above more carefully.

"Red are the same compound as the salmon.". That's the bit I disagree with. I can't read it any more
carefully.

If I am incorrect, please explain more and where you get your information from. Then (perhaps after
some checking) I will apologise if I am wrong.

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

> Clive George wrote:
>>>> Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. Red are the same compound as the salmon.
>>>
>>> Incorrect.
>>
>> Oh no it isn't. You may wish to read what I wrote above more carefully.

By the way, I do realise that you were referring to disc brake models, but why should these be any
different if iron oxide is what gives the Salmon compound its colouring?

~PB

 

[Clive George]

"Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George wrote:
> > "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Clive George wrote:
> >>> "Rory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>> Kool Stop Reds is what I use, and they do in the rims pretty quickly (OK, 750m descent per
> >>>> daily commute, 200m with loaded trailer, makes them work). Are the Salmon different? Do they
> >>>> do a Magura version?
> >>>
> >>> Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. Red are the same compound as the salmon.
> >>
> >> Incorrect.
> >
> > Oh no it isn't. You may wish to read what I wrote above more carefully.
>
> "Red are the same compound as the salmon.". That's the bit I disagree with. I can't read it any
> more carefully.

yes you can, you can read the previous sentence

> If I am incorrect, please explain more and where you get your information from. Then (perhaps
> after some checking) I will apologise if I am wrong.

Magura do 4 pads - black, red, grey, green. This is for their rim brakes, not discs. Magura red are
the same as koolstop salmon. But I thought this was pretty clear - magura don't do a salmon,
koolstop do, and the red refers to the magura which I mentioned before.

The key is that magura do these pads, not koolstop (although koolstop probably actually make them).

>By the way, I do realise that you were referring to disc brake models,

tee hee. They made rim brakes first. It should have been pretty obvious I was talking about these
when I wrote "Grey and green are for ceramic rims." (you snipped this).

cheers, clive

 

[Pete Biggs]

Clive George wrote:

> The key is that magura do these pads, not koolstop (although koolstop probably actually
> make them).
>
>> By the way, I do realise that you were referring to disc brake models,
>
> tee hee. They made rim brakes first. It should have been pretty obvious I was talking about these
> when I wrote "Grey and green are for ceramic rims." (you snipped this).

Right, I got confused because Kool Stop do make "Magura" models and also because I have been lead to
believe that Kool Stop is the only company currently producing brake pads with the an iron oxide
compound - so I closed my mind to the fact that Magura could possibly be involved. Sorry about that.

Just out of interest, are you sure that Magura use the Scott-Mathauser compound?

~PB