brake cable pulls suspension fork up

[Carl Fogel]

Ted Bennett <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> bicyclette <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Qui si parla Campagnolo hatte geschrieben:
> > >
> > >>Like I said, what question did v brakes answer??
> > >
> >
> > It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny. Du sollst ein paar Jahre in Amerika wohnen
> > Guenther!
>
>
> Translation, please? Both sentences, as I can't understand either.

Dear Ted,

You simply cannot follow subtle references without a thorough grounding in the classics (or Google):

http://www.popular-song-lyrics.com/coolio-county-line.html

(The esteemed Mr. Coolio's plaintive chorus criticizing life in the U.S. is used to suggest that
greed lurks behind V-brakes.)

"Du sollst ein paar Jahre in Amerika wohnen Guenther!"

Roughly, "You should spend a year living in America, chump!" a polyglot insinuation that only one of
those born every minute could fail to realize that the existence of V-brakes indicates that they are
living in a cesspool of capitalism.

Or something like that.

The same point can be made by rubbing fingertips against a thumb or exclaiming, "Cha-ching!" in
emulation of an old-fashioned cash-register bell (remember, the bell alerted the store-owner
whenever his untrustworthy employees opened the money-box).

Modestly down with the 'hood, or, Ich bin ein hamburger [1]

Carl Fogel

[1] Kennedy's famous claim of solidarity with west Berlin ("ich bin ein Berliner") could
unfortunately also be translated as "I am a jelly doughnut." This was, of course, worked into a
Simpsons episode:

http://www.anvari.org/fortune/Simpsons_Subtle_Allusions/9.html

 

[Ted Bennett]

[email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote:

> Ted Bennett <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<tedbennett-
> [email protected]>...
> > bicyclette <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > > Qui si parla Campagnolo hatte geschrieben:
> > > >
> > > >>Like I said, what question did v brakes answer??
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny. Du sollst ein paar Jahre in Amerika wohnen
> > > Guenther!
> >
> >
> > Translation, please? Both sentences, as I can't understand either.
>
> Dear Ted,
>
> You simply cannot follow subtle references without a thorough grounding in the classics (or
> Google):
>
> http://www.popular-song-lyrics.com/coolio-county-line.html
>
> (The esteemed Mr. Coolio's plaintive chorus criticizing life in the U.S. is used to suggest that
> greed lurks behind V-brakes.)
>
> "Du sollst ein paar Jahre in Amerika wohnen Guenther!"
>
> Roughly, "You should spend a year living in America, chump!" a polyglot insinuation that only one
> of those born every minute could fail to realize that the existence of V-brakes indicates that
> they are living in a cesspool of capitalism.
>
> Or something like that.
>
> The same point can be made by rubbing fingertips against a thumb or exclaiming, "Cha-ching!" in
> emulation of an old-fashioned cash-register bell (remember, the bell alerted the store-owner
> whenever his untrustworthy employees opened the money-box).
>
> Modestly down with the 'hood, or, Ich bin ein hamburger [1]
>
> Carl Fogel
>
> [1] Kennedy's famous claim of solidarity with west Berlin ("ich bin ein Berliner") could
> unfortunately also be translated as "I am a jelly doughnut." This was, of course, worked into
> a Simpsons episode:
>
> http://www.anvari.org/fortune/Simpsons_Subtle_Allusions/9.html

Thank you, Carl. Perhaps I have not spent enough time with Homer et al., but I have attempted to
redeem myself with an oblique reference to a sandwich commercial. See my posting to the "Who says we
aren't funny" thread.

The Kennedy/Berliner thing I have been aware of for some years. It's impossible to get rid of the
image of JFK loonily pronouncing "I am a jelly doughbnut!" to an amazed audience of Germans. Perhaps
it was his repeated chlamydia infections for which he was treated during his presidency.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

Carl Fogel <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny. Du sollst ein paar Jahre in Amerika wohnen
> > > Guenther!

> You simply cannot follow subtle references without a thorough grounding in the classics (or
> Google):

> http://www.popular-song-lyrics.com/coolio-county-line.html

> (The esteemed Mr. Coolio's plaintive chorus criticizing life in the U.S. is used to suggest that
> greed lurks behind V-brakes.)

"It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny you got to have a con in this land of milk
and honey"

is originally from "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, from about 1981. Coolio
was making a literary reference.

The opening line of the first verse of "The Message" - "Broken glass, everywhere!" suggests that GM
Flash was a cyclist, obviously.

[Sorry, an earlier version of this article misquoted the lyrics slightly.]

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

Ted Bennett <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Ich bin ein hamburger [1] Carl Fogel

> The Kennedy/Berliner thing I have been aware of for some years. It's impossible to get rid of the
> image of JFK loonily pronouncing "I am a jelly doughbnut!" to an amazed audience of Germans.
> Perhaps it was his repeated chlamydia infections for which he was treated during his presidency.

At that time of high tension, the Germans all knew what he meant and appreciated the spirit in which
the statement was made.

http://www.urbanlegends.com/faq2k/word_254.html
http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/kennedy_berliner_quote.html

 

[Carl Fogel]

Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<403e4496$1@darkstar>...
> Carl Fogel <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny. Du sollst ein paar Jahre in Amerika wohnen
> > > > Guenther!
>
> > You simply cannot follow subtle references without a thorough grounding in the classics (or
> > Google):
>
> > http://www.popular-song-lyrics.com/coolio-county-line.html
>
> > (The esteemed Mr. Coolio's plaintive chorus criticizing life in the U.S. is used to suggest that
> > greed lurks behind V-brakes.)
>
> "It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny you got to have a con in this land of milk
> and honey"
>
> is originally from "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, from about 1981.
> Coolio was making a literary reference.
>
> The opening line of the first verse of "The Message" - "Broken glass, everywhere!" suggests that
> GM Flash was a cyclist, obviously.
>
> [Sorry, an earlier version of this article misquoted the lyrics slightly.]

Dear Benjamin,

Aha!

So, just as we have evidence of an ur-Hamlet, there seems to be an ur-Coolio, only more substantial.

I have hopes of future generations of literary scholars furiously debating who wrote Coolio.

Delightedly,

Carl Fogel

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

Carl Fogel <[email protected]> wrote:
> Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<403e4496$1@darkstar>...

> > "It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny you got to have a con in this land of milk and
> > honey"
> >
> > is originally from "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, from about 1981.
> > Coolio was making a literary reference.

> Aha! So, just as we have evidence of an ur-Hamlet, there seems to be an ur-Coolio, only more
> substantial.

"The Message" was one of early rap's biggest hits, and crossed over in the pop world to some degree.
Most of Coolio's audience would have caught the reference - as if I were to say "To fogel or not to
fogel ..."

Calling "The Message" an ur-anything is like, say, calling "I Love Lucy" the ur-sitcom. Which, of
course, it is.

> I have hopes of future generations of literary scholars furiously debating who wrote Coolio.

Surely this is already happening. For example, Grandmaster Flash was actually the DJ, not the MC
(rapper). Who created "The Message"? It's credited to "E. Fletcher, Melvin Glover, Sylvia Robinson,
J. Chase" - two rappers, a hands-on label owner, and a producer (and no mention of the DJ). Here's
several different views of the song's genesis and significance - try reconciling them. And none of
these are guaranteed unbiased or correct, they're just some stuff I found on the web.

http://www.oldschoolhiphop.com/features/message.htm
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_album.php?id=6012
http://entertainment.msn.com/artist/?artist=137817
http://entertainment.msn.com/artist/?artist=102033

 

[Greg Estep]

"S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "bicyclette" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Can I stay with Cantilever for the rear? Just upgrade to V on the front?
> >
>
> Well, yes and no. The lever is actually different with V-brakes. They
have
> more pull, less leverage, than a canti. So you really need to upgrade the lever as well. Which
> means you'll have 2 different levers. If that
doesn't
> bother you, then no big deal.

Wouldn't a Travel Agent (http://www.cambriabike.com/brakes/travel_agent.htm) help here?

--
Greg Estep

 

[Greg Estep]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> What question did vbrakes answer, what
> problem did they solve for the rider??

They let you upgrade an ATB with a new suspension fork that doesn't have a proper cable stop.

--
Greg "circular logic" Estep

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Peter Chisholm asked:

> What question did vbrakes answer, what problem did they solve for the rider??

=95They definitively solved the problem of transverse cables hanging up o=
n=20 tire studs when the main cable broke or slipped. There were a number of =

grisly accidents cause by this in the '80s.

=95They solved the problem of poor cantilever setup.

=95They solved the problem of protruding cantilever arms getting kicked b=
y=20 riders' heels.

=95They solved a number of cable routing problems, including suspension=20
bike issues and front brakes where a low handlebar stem would cause the=20 cable to kink as it
entered the headset-mounted housing stop.

=95They solved the problem of rear cable stops, particularly an issue on =

smaller frames, and got rid of those stupid doodads hung off the=20 seatpost bolt.

=95They solved the problem of the mechanical advantage getting lower as=20
the brake shoes get closer to the rim...and as the brake pads wear.

=95They reduced the effects of cable stretch/housing compression, by=20
lowering the tension on the cable. The reduced cable tension probably=20 also reduces the risk of
cable breakage.

=95They reduced the number of parts comprising the braking system.

Sheldon "All I Can Think Of At The Moment" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------
+
| A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; | an optimist sees the opportunity in
| every difficulty. | -- Sir Winston Churchill |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Peter Chisholm asked:

> What question did vbrakes answer, what problem did they solve for the rider??

I replied with a detailed list of 8 specific problems that were solved by the move from center-pull
cantilevers to "v brakes."

Peter snipped those and wrote:

> I won't go into all the items you mentioned but 'most' could be solved by something other than
> incompatible brakes and levers. Another really expensive and complicated answer to relativley
> simple questions.

"V brakes" are neither expensive nor complicated. They only use one cable, two moving parts. They
are actually cheaper than traditional cantilevers when you factor in the housing stops on frame and
headset, which aren't needed with the newer design.

As it happens, at the same time "v brakes" were coming in, another improvement was being phased in
with less ballyhoo: modern units no longer use the frame's brazed-on posts as a bearing surface.
This eliminates a number of issues older bikes had with erratic prep, and brake posts being
contaiminated by paint or rust, or not properly lubricated.

This has entailed a slight increase in cost of the cantilevers themselves, though the newer models
of center-pull cantis also incorporate this improvement.

> << They reduced the number of parts comprising the braking system.

> Gee, ya ever take a XT or XTR v brake apart??
>
> Compare to a third gen XT canti?? The low profile one?(where you don't kick it with your heel?

Now you're comparing appples and locomotives. I was discussing simple "v brakes" vs traditional
cantis, not speaking of the high-end models with the parallelogram movement.

Those are, indeed more complicated, though they also solve a problem that no previous cantilever has
solved, viz., the issue of direction of pad movement. Simple cantilevers, whichever cable system
they use, move the pad in an arc centered on the mounting post. This is no problem in most cases,
but can be an issue when very narrow rims are used, especially if in conjunction with very wide
tires. The overhanging tire can get in the way of the sweep of the brake shoe.

The parallelogram design is good for bikes which suffer from this problem, but not otherwise
necessary. Personally, I like 'em, and I've got LXs on a couple of my personal bikes.

Sheldon "V" Brown +------------------------------------------------------+
| Why is it that a country with as small a population | as Canada's produces so many excellent
| musicians? | Some of my favorites include: | Ad Vielle Que Pourra, La Bottine Souriante, | Bob
| Bossin, Bruce Cockburn, Leonard Cohen, | Glenn Gould, James Keelaghan, Gordon Lightfoot, | Joni
| Mitchell, Rare Air, Stan & Garnet Rogers, | Ian & Sylvia Tyson, Neil Young... |
+------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Dvt]

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> As it happens, at the same time "v brakes" were coming in, another improvement was being phased in
> with less ballyhoo: modern units no longer use the frame's brazed-on posts as a bearing surface.
> This eliminates a number of issues older bikes had with erratic prep, and brake posts being
> contaiminated by paint or rust, or not properly lubricated.

I never thought of that one! My commuter bike uses cantis, and as it sees a lot of rain and other
forms of moisture, the brakes need to be periodically removed and the bearing surfaces re-greased.
That's a pain I could do without.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

 

[Chris B .]

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 11:41:16 -0500, Sheldon Brown
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Peter Chisholm asked:

<big snip>

>> Compare to a third gen XT canti?? The low profile one?(where you don't kick it with your heel?
>
>Now you're comparing appples and locomotives. I was discussing simple "v brakes" vs traditional
>cantis, not speaking of the high-end models with the parallelogram movement.
>
>Those are, indeed more complicated, though they also solve a problem that no previous cantilever
>has solved, viz., the issue of direction of pad movement. Simple cantilevers, whichever cable
>system they use, move the pad in an arc centered on the mounting post. This is no problem in most
>cases, but can be an issue when very narrow rims are used, especially if in conjunction with very
>wide tires. The overhanging tire can get in the way of the sweep of the brake shoe.
>
>The parallelogram design is good for bikes which suffer from this problem, but not otherwise
>necessary. Personally, I like 'em, and I've got LXs on a couple of my personal bikes.

Sheldon,

I'm curious, what do you think of the Avid Arch series of linear pull brakes?

--

Chris Bird

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote:

>>Those are, indeed more complicated, though they also solve a problem that no previous cantilever
>>has solved, viz., the issue of direction of pad movement. Simple cantilevers, whichever cable
>>system they use, move the pad in an arc centered on the mounting post. This is no problem in most
>>cases, but can be an issue when very narrow rims are used, especially if in conjunction with very
>>wide tires. The overhanging tire can get in the way of the sweep of the brake shoe.
>>
>>The parallelogram design is good for bikes which suffer from this problem, but not otherwise
>>necessary. Personally, I like 'em, and I've got LXs on a couple of my personal bikes.
>
Chris B. asked:

> Sheldon,
>
> I'm curious, what do you think of the Avid Arch series of linear pull brakes?

I haven't worked with those. Looks like a good design on paper, and I've generally had a good
opinion of Avid stuff, but they do cost half-again as much as the LX, so I'm not sure if they're
worth the difference.

Sheldon "LX Works For Me" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------+
| Oh, the cyclist and the runner should be friends, | Yes, the cyclist and the runner should be
| friends; | Some folks like to kick their heels, | Some folks like to spin their wheels, | But
| that's no reason why they can't be friends! |
| |
| Human-powered folks should stick together, | Non-polluting folks should get along; | If you agree
| with what I'm saying, | Won't you join me in my song? | -- Rogers & Brown |
+-----------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
> > As it happens, at the same time "v brakes" were coming in, another improvement was being phased
> > in with less ballyhoo: modern units no longer use the frame's brazed-on posts as a bearing
> > surface. This eliminates a number of issues older bikes had with erratic prep, and brake posts
> > being contaiminated by paint or rust, or not properly lubricated.

> I never thought of that one! My commuter bike uses cantis, and as it sees a lot of rain and other
> forms of moisture, the brakes need to be periodically removed and the bearing surfaces re-greased.
> That's a pain I could do without.

But a disadvantage is that with these internal bearing surfaces, you can't clean them or
effectively get lube in there. Once the internal bushing gets sloppy, you'll get brake squeal. No
cure. ------------ And now a word from our sponsor --------------------- For a secure high
performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption upgrade to SurgeFTP ---- See
http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgeftp.htm ----

 

[Dvt]

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> But a disadvantage is that with these internal bearing surfaces, you can't clean them or
> effectively get lube in there. Once the internal bushing gets sloppy, you'll get brake squeal.
> No cure.

That doesn't sound like a very likely failure. You need a lot of motion to wear out a bushing of
that size, and a brake bushing does not rotate very many times in a typical ride.

Quick calcs: apply the brakes every 3 minutes (20 times per hour). That's a lot of braking. The
brake arm rotates through an angle of, say, 30 degrees. So that's 60 degrees per application, 20
times per hour, for a total of 3.33 rotations per hour. Even with these exaggerated numbers, I think
you'll need to ride a loooooong time to wear out one of those bushings.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

 

[Carl Fogel]

Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<4042c96b$1@darkstar>...
> Carl Fogel <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<403e4496$1@darkstar>...
>
> > > "It's all about money ain't a damn thing funny you got to have a con in this land of milk and
> > > honey"
> > >
> > > is originally from "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, from about 1981.
> > > Coolio was making a literary reference.
>
> > Aha! So, just as we have evidence of an ur-Hamlet, there seems to be an ur-Coolio, only more
> > substantial.
>
> "The Message" was one of early rap's biggest hits, and crossed over in the pop world to some
> degree. Most of Coolio's audience would have caught the reference - as if I were to say "To fogel
> or not to fogel ..."
>
> Calling "The Message" an ur-anything is like, say, calling "I Love Lucy" the ur-sitcom. Which, of
> course, it is.
>
> > I have hopes of future generations of literary scholars furiously debating who wrote Coolio.
>
> Surely this is already happening. For example, Grandmaster Flash was actually the DJ, not the MC
> (rapper). Who created "The Message"? It's credited to "E. Fletcher, Melvin Glover, Sylvia
> Robinson, J. Chase" - two rappers, a hands-on label owner, and a producer (and no mention of the
> DJ). Here's several different views of the song's genesis and significance - try reconciling them.
> And none of these are guaranteed unbiased or correct, they're just some stuff I found on the web.
>
> http://www.oldschoolhiphop.com/features/message.htm
> http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_album.php?id=6012
> http://entertainment.msn.com/artist/?artist=137817
> http://entertainment.msn.com/artist/?artist=102033

Dear Benjamin,

As might be said of the Notorious B.I.G., "It strikes a man more dead than a great reckoning in a
little room."

Christopher Marlowe

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
> Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> > But a disadvantage is that with these internal bearing surfaces, you can't clean them or
> > effectively get lube in there. Once the internal bushing gets sloppy, you'll get brake squeal.
> > No cure.

> That doesn't sound like a very likely failure. You need a lot of motion to wear out a bushing of
> that size, and a brake bushing does not rotate very many times in a typical ride.

Well, with hard use, something gets in there - that's why you have to periodically clean and lube
the posts on your bike. With the internal pivots, one can't clean or effectively grease them, so if
they start off perfect (ha!) they can only get worse - either loose, or corroded. In reality I think
they start off dry and a little loose so they don't bind when new. Andrew Muzi, who lives in a
climate with more water and road salt than I do, has previously mentioned the maintenance problem.
Google for his posts with "brake boss pivot" or something like that.

> Quick calcs: apply the brakes every 3 minutes (20 times per hour). That's a lot of braking. The
> brake arm rotates through an angle of, say, 30 degrees. So that's 60 degrees per application, 20
> times per hour, for a total of 3.33 rotations per hour. Even with these exaggerated numbers, I
> think you'll need to ride a loooooong time to wear out one of those bushings.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote in part:

> Now you're comparing appples and locomotives. I was discussing simple "v brakes" vs traditional
> cantis, not speaking of the high-end models with the parallelogram movement. >><BR><BR>

Peter Chisholm replied:

> Very true but the first Vbarkes were XT, no? Followed by XTR and then the rebuild kit to keep them
> from rattling apart.

Most "v brakes" are not of that type, so it muddies the waters when you make that association.

> I'm saying if the problems were poor braking or such, then I think there was a simplier solution
> than brakes that needed specific levers.

Two posts ago I gave a list of 8 problems that V brakes solved, only a couple of which related to
poor braking.

> Why not design a v type brake that used older levers? Instead of needing new levers??

Easy to say, not so easy to do. With a simple lever such as a "v brake" you don't have a lot of
variables to play with. The mechanical advantage is a function of only two things: the distance from
the pivot point to the rim, and the distance from the pivot point to the cable attachment hardware.

The relationship between the pivot point and the rim is a fundamental standard, and can't be
tinkered with without creating much more serious interchangeability problems, and obsoleting
millions of frames.

The pivot-to-cable length is the only variable they can control. It is actually possible to make "v
type" brakes that work with regular levers, by making this distance short. Tektro makes a "Mini-V"
brake like this.

The problem with that is that shortening the pivot-to-cable length lowers the cable. The Tektro Mini-
Vs can't be used with MTB tires, and won't even permit the use of fenders with typical road tires,
because the cable runs too low across the top of the tire.

Making a "v type" brake with reasonable clearance _requires_ the difference in cable travel. A
serendipitous result of this is that, when used as a system with correct levers, cable tension is
reduced by about 50%, which means the cable stretches less, housing compresses less and friction
is reduced.

Sheldon "Progress Is Good" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; | It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Dvt]

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
>>>But a disadvantage is that with these internal bearing surfaces, you can't clean them or
>>>effectively get lube in there. Once the internal bushing gets sloppy, you'll get brake squeal.
>>>No cure.

dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>>That doesn't sound like a very likely failure. You need a lot of motion to wear out a bushing of
>>that size, and a brake bushing does not rotate very many times in a typical ride.

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> Andrew Muzi, who lives in a climate with more water and road salt than I do, has previously
> mentioned the maintenance problem. Google for his posts with "brake boss pivot" or something
> like that.

From Muzi's old post (27-Sep-2003):

"There are many popular linear ("V") brakes which no longer pivot on the frame's brake boss. A stamped-
together bearing assembly moves between a bronze and a steel sleeve.... They are very difficult to
lubricate when new and are more prone to salt water corrosion.

"They have one other foible. the clearances are huge. When you grasp an arm and move it front to
back the play is excessive. There is no quick and easy cure for that. Try another brake as they are
dirt cheap. Look for a model which pivots on the brake boss itself if possible."

Earlier in this thread, Sheldon wrote:

"As it happens, at the same time "v brakes" were coming in, another improvement was being phased in
with less ballyhoo: modern units no longer use the frame's brazed-on posts as a bearing surface.
This eliminates a number of issues older bikes had with erratic prep, and brake posts being
contaiminated by paint or rust, or not properly lubricated.

"This has entailed a slight increase in cost of the cantilevers themselves, though the newer models
of center-pull cantis also incorporate this improvement."

It would seem that the enclosed bearing results in faster assembly and better out-of-the-box braking
(Sheldon). Under long-term use in wet conditions, the lack of servicability causes problems for the
bearings (Muzi).

Did I get that right? Muzi, how often do you see the corrosion problem?

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

 

[A Muzi]

> Benjamin Weiner wrote:
>>>> But a disadvantage is that with these internal bearing surfaces, you can't clean them or
>>>> effectively get lube in there. Once the internal bushing gets sloppy, you'll get brake squeal.
>>>> No cure.

> dvt <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> That doesn't sound like a very likely failure. You need a lot of motion to wear out a bushing of
>>> that size, and a brake bushing does not rotate very many times in a typical ride.

> Benjamin Weiner wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi, who lives in a climate with more water and road salt than I do, has previously
>> mentioned the maintenance problem. Google for his posts with "brake boss pivot" or something
>> like that.

dvt wrote:
> From Muzi's old post (27-Sep-2003): "There are many popular linear ("V") brakes which no longer
> pivot on the frame's brake boss. A stamped-together bearing assembly moves between a bronze and a
> steel sleeve.... They are very difficult to lubricate when new and are more prone to salt water
> corrosion. "They have one other foible. the clearances are huge. When you grasp an arm and move
> it front to back the play is excessive. There is no quick and easy cure for that. Try another
> brake as they are dirt cheap. Look for a model which pivots on the brake boss itself if
> possible."

> Earlier in this thread, Sheldon wrote: "As it happens, at the same time "v brakes" were coming in,
> another improvement was being phased in with less ballyhoo: modern units no longer use the frame's
> brazed-on posts as a bearing surface. This eliminates a number of issues older bikes had with
> erratic prep, and brake posts being contaiminated by paint or rust, or not properly lubricated.
> "This has entailed a slight increase in cost of the cantilevers themselves, though the newer
> models of center-pull cantis also incorporate this improvement."

> It would seem that the enclosed bearing results in faster assembly and better out-of-the-box
> braking (Sheldon). Under long-term use in wet conditions, the lack of servicability causes
> problems for the bearings (Muzi).

> Did I get that right? Muzi, how often do you see the corrosion problem?

After missing RBT for a couple of days, I return to burning ears.

That phenomenon is regular here - three to five a week which need either extreme measures ( arm off
bike, un-press the assembly, emery the sleeves, grease and reinstall) or replacement. Most days but
not every day.

So not every bike by a long shot. But it's a new thing caused as you note by a stamped assembly
which cannot be lubricated at assembly in a reasonable amount of time.

I think we would see many more but that most riders park the bike for salt season, for various
reasons ( kindness to bicycle mechanics isn't one of them)

The corrosion issue is separate from the resonance/sloppiness aspect. Almost all mid to low price
linear brake pivots have play we'd call excessive if it were a cantilever or a normal caliper. Look
at brake arms in a bike showroom, rocking brake arms front to back.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971