Brake pads - the good the bad and the ugly?

Arthur Clune wrote:
> Velvet <[email protected]> wrote:
> : this a problem? No I'm not using the bars to 100% of their
> : capabilities, but why should I either?
>
> I think this has all got a little out of hand. Lets be honest, most
> non-racers don't use the drop portion of their drops much so Velvet
> is just the same as the rest there.

If I use drop bars, I never use the drops either /except/ for sustained
braking, because it's a far more effective way to brake.

> I was the one that originally asked about braking on the drops though
> and I'll stand by that. The difference between different brake pads
> is really, really small compared to the difference between braking
> on the hoods while going down a steep hill and braking on the drops.

This is indeed the case, so if you /can't/ use the drops then you can't
use the *brakes* to 100% of their capabilities. It's the brakes thing
that strikes me as a *Very Bad Thing* not to be able to use properly on
a bike, which is (along with signalling) why I'm willing to be a PITA
rather than diplomatically saying "well, if she's happy it's okay, it's
her choice" in this case. It appears to me that the choice of bike is
compromising the rider's ability to control it as well as she might,
which is a safety issue and one that has me genuinely worried.

> However, please don't take this as a dig. It's been really good to
> see the progress you are making with your cycling and it's good
> to have you on urc.

A sentiment I will happily echo, especially the "please don't take this
as a dig". And I'm sorry to be a PITA about the bike, but I think you
really might be not only happier but fundamentally *safer* on something
more user-friendly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

Peter Clinch <[email protected]> writes:

>> I'm sorry if I sound like I'm getting a pissy, but - well - I am.

>Which is fair enough: you put a lot of effort into finding the Right=20
>Bike and someone saying it looks like you got the wrong one is a slap in =
>the face.

Don't think this is about the bike that much.
They way it comes across to me, and which is how I would respond in
Velvet's place, is getting pissy because someone is forcing help down my
throat. People have the right to make their own mistakes, decide how and
when they want to learn things and how and when they want to reach certain
discussions. If you want to convince me of something it works better to
give a gentle push in the right direction, and then leave me alone to work
it out for myself. Flooding with arguments makes me stubborn and
defensive.

(rest of this discussion will be taken offline at home

Velvet - sorry if I'm projecting all sorts of interpretations on your
email. Just keep cycling and posting

Roos

 

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:00 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:

> Arthur Clune wrote:
>> Velvet <[email protected]> wrote:
>>: this a problem? No I'm not using the bars to 100% of their
>>: capabilities, but why should I either?
>>
>> I think this has all got a little out of hand. Lets be honest, most
>> non-racers don't use the drop portion of their drops much so Velvet
>> is just the same as the rest there.
>
> If I use drop bars, I never use the drops either /except/ for sustained
> braking, because it's a far more effective way to brake.
>
>> I was the one that originally asked about braking on the drops though
>> and I'll stand by that. The difference between different brake pads
>> is really, really small compared to the difference between braking
>> on the hoods while going down a steep hill and braking on the drops.
>
> This is indeed the case, so if you /can't/ use the drops then you can't
> use the *brakes* to 100% of their capabilities. It's the brakes thing
> that strikes me as a *Very Bad Thing* not to be able to use properly on
> a bike, which is (along with signalling) why I'm willing to be a PITA
> rather than diplomatically saying "well, if she's happy it's okay, it's
> her choice" in this case. It appears to me that the choice of bike is
> compromising the rider's ability to control it as well as she might,
> which is a safety issue and one that has me genuinely worried.
>

My sentiments exactly.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I have never killed a man, but I have read many
obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

 

Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> writes:
> On 30 Jul 2004 10:57:12 GMT, Arthur Clune wrote:
> > However, please don't take this as a dig. It's been really good to
> > see the progress you are making with your cycling and it's good
> > to have you on urc.
>
> I think this is a widespread sentiment among the people who have been
> contributing to this discussion.

Actually, I think she should give up forthwith and immediately ship
her bike to my address.

In reality, I think the reason people are trying so hard to encourage
her is because they've forgotten how things that seem so completely
intuitive aren't to start with, and the fact that it's actually
unusual to feel completely relaxed and at home on a bike like most of
us do, and it takes some learning.

Also, in reality, I'd like to swindle someone out of a recumbent, not
a Dawes Audax

A

 

Velvet wrote:

> Beeecaaaause, I use the bars I have to move around a lot on a 50 mile
> ride, and I won't be able to do that with flats.

You can with bar ends, but the main point is on a bike that doesn't
stretch you out there's far less weight on your arms and wrists so less
basic need to do it to start with. By pulling the riding position up
you can address the fundamental cause rather than rearrange the symptoms.

> Reading that last bit of mine, what I meant to say (and perhaps didn't
> manage) was that if I got a different bike, yes I'd learn to be happy
> and confident on that one, but if I was ever to use my audax bike, then
> I'd just have to do what I'm doing now, and go through the confidence
> and learning process for the bits that are different, and it seems a bit
> pointless to just put that off - I might as well do it now and get it
> over and done with!

Think of just about anything with a non-intuitive skill set and how it's
usually taught. You start off on the easy equipment, master the basics
and transfer those to more specialised equipment. Things I've done
taught that way include driving, cycling, skiing, kayaking, maths,
reading etc. etc., and it's done that way because that's the way that
generally works best.
Once you have all the basic skills mastered then it typically takes
minutes to transfer them to a new bike, not weeks or months.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

On 30 Jul 2004 12:30:22 +0100, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:


>
> In reality, I think the reason people are trying so hard to encourage
> her is because they've forgotten how things that seem so completely
> intuitive aren't to start with, and the fact that it's actually
> unusual to feel completely relaxed and at home on a bike like most of
> us do, and it takes some learning.
>

Well, she's been doing it for long enough.

Both Pete and I have suggested that she creates her own artificial barriers
to progress.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter
saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

 

Thanks, it was starting to feel like lots of digs - though I do
understand Peter's reasons behind them.

I've developed a strategy that means I can brake fine on the downhills I
do - which is why I'm really not as concerned as you think I should be.

If it's one that requires constant braking (it doesn't flatten out
before a junction or something) then to avoid the tired hands problem, I
alternate back and front brakes, to keep the speed down to something I
deem reasonable, and from which I can stop ok.

If it's a long one and I feel confident and can see enough of the road
ahead etc, I just let the bike go, and brake harder toward the bottom -
again, it's not a problem.

If it's short/long but really quite steep, then I evaluate, and walk if
necessary. I'd rather preserve my confidence and wait till I feel ready
to tackle a steep hill - I'm not about to go careering down a hill that
I don't think I can brake on, specially not after past experience as a
kid ;-)

See, I'm a wuss, and I know it, and I'm stubborn too. I've always
wanted a bike like this, and yes, it's been a huge challenge (and still
is challenging in some respects) to ride it with confidence - but a lot
of that is my lack of confidence rather than the bike being really
really wrong.

If I'd not changed the bits I've changed on it, then yes, the bike
*would* be wrong - yes, it would be compromising safety for me to have
continued riding it with stock bits on, but that's not the case.

I'm well aware that braking from the drops puts a LOT more leverage on
the brakes, and I'm aware that means from the hoods there's a lot less -
but consider this:

if I'm heading down hill and snatch a brake while on the drops, it's
more likely to result in me doing an inelegant cartwheel over the bike
onto the tarmac than if I'm doing it on the hoods.

I'm pushed well back when on the hoods these days (downhills got a lot
less scary once I realised moving bodyweight backwards was a good idea)
but the weight keeps the hands where they're supposed to be - right up
on the hoods with fingers on the brakes.

With more riding has come stronger fingers - something that's quite
noticeable, and has improved the braking abilities. I've also moved the
position of the levers on the bars to bring them closer to the
fingers, and the bars are now women-specific too - narrower in line with
shoulders, and also the C curve is different - it's a slightly different
shape, and seems a smaller radius.

Yes, I do get aching hands after 50 miles rides, but I used to get an
aching arse, aching shoulders, neck, hands, legs, you name it, it ached.
My bum's got used to the saddle, the neck/shoulders don't ache any
more (due to me being more relaxed, better core body strength, and
stretching while riding now) - I don't think it'll be that much longer
before I find a way to stop the hand-ache - the skin is toughening up
nicely - and given the bars are about the same height as the saddle the
weight distribution isn't mostly on the front; the hands/neck/shoulder
are/were quite probably down to lack of muscles around the core -
instead of my body supporting itself, it's had to use the arms to do so
- and that's made big improvements too now, I'm able to raise myself off
the bars using lower/mid body strength alone when the bike's on the
turbo, and lower back down onto them in a controlled way too -
previously impossible.

FWIW, I was fine on one hill on the L2C last weekend that I'd been a bit
nervous about - downward descent you can pick up quite alot of speed on,
then a right hand junction to take (hill continues down). Exactly the
sort of situation I'm not confident about - have to slow for the
junction, evaluate traffic, stop if needed whilst still on a hill etc.

In the event, it was no problem at all. Seemed others didn't seem to
have quite the same approach to it that I did, and came barelling past
me at a great rate, slamming on their anchors hard at the last minute.

I'd imagine that's the sort of thing that you'd need to be on the drops
to get the most out of the brakes for, but I don't ride like that, and
I've already proven that in an emergency, adrenaline supplies more than
ample extra finger power.

And yes, my bike's an audax bike, I may never use it to do loads of
audax on... that wasn't the intention when I got it - but that was the
best fit for the uses I wanted out of it. It'll take panniers, as well
as being light, so it does trips into town well. If I go in for an
audax (I'm actually looking at doing one end of sept) then obviously
some stuff'll be removed to save weight and return it to more of a true
audax bike. I can take everything inc mudguards off, and it becomes
more similar to a racer - I've pondered the idea of doing a TT at some
point just for curiousity.

From that point of view it's versatile, which is what I wanted from it
- and light. I get a real blast out of powering it along relatively
flat roads at speed, and if I'm in a head wind I can crouch over the
bars to reduce wind resistance - my arms have quite a long way they can
bend to drop me down, even with keeping my hands on the top of the bars.

I love the speed I can get out of it, and I'm willing to put in the time
and overcome my worries in order to be in a better position to do
justice to the bike I've got, because I really do enjoy riding it when
things are going well - and these days there's very few points where I'm
not enjoying it!

Hills have got easier as I've put in the training recently to develop
the legs I need for it - now all I need to do is get rid of the excess
weight and I'll be much better off on the hills - I might add that at
one point last sunday the other half (who is a regular experienced
cyclist and has much bigger legs/less flab than me) was struggling to
keep up with me, including some small hills, which I think just goes to
show how much that's improved. I think it might be that I don't post
about the improvements as much as mentioning the little niggles, so
maybe I should make a conscious effort to rectify that... (I have
actually posted a link to the L2C babble, which gives a good idea I
think of how I'm getting on with progress/speeds/hills etc).

If in the mean time though I end up compromising for a while on riding
down hills, then so be it - it doesn't mean I enjoy my rides any less -
getting off and walking is an inconvenience but I've long since left
behind the idea that walking a bike up OR down a hill is some sort of
sign of failure on the part of the rider! Yes, I was considering (and
still am) changing the gearing - I'm changing the chain this weekend,
and if it turns out that the duff link has worn the cassette and the new
chain skips, then I might look at putting on a slightly wider range.
But to balance that out, I can cycle up hills I couldn't manage before,
and bigger ones, too. That tells me it's not the gearing that's the
problem as much as my fitness - yes it'll take a bit longer to get to
the point where I can do those hills, but if I cycle up as far as I can,
then walk, I continue to improve and build the fitness.

Right, enough blathering for the day, all I can say is it's a good job I
ended up doing some (unpaid) overtime this week to compensate for
today's chattering in here ;-)

--


Velvet

 

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:

> Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>On 30 Jul 2004 10:57:12 GMT, Arthur Clune wrote:
>>
>>>However, please don't take this as a dig. It's been really good to
>>>see the progress you are making with your cycling and it's good
>>>to have you on urc.
>>
>>I think this is a widespread sentiment among the people who have been
>>contributing to this discussion.
>
>
> Actually, I think she should give up forthwith and immediately ship
> her bike to my address.
>
> In reality, I think the reason people are trying so hard to encourage
> her is because they've forgotten how things that seem so completely
> intuitive aren't to start with, and the fact that it's actually
> unusual to feel completely relaxed and at home on a bike like most of
> us do, and it takes some learning.
>
> Also, in reality, I'd like to swindle someone out of a recumbent, not
> a Dawes Audax
>
> A


I think yes, that's a lot of it - I feel at one with the bike
*most* of the time now, which is GREAT! however, it wasn't like this to
start with, and certainly still isn't when it comes to some steep hills ;-)

I could tell the difference as it swapped between being-at-one and
being-sat-on in the course of a single ride. Wonderful, relaxed, in
control vs tense, worried, not in total control. The first time I felt
being-at-one was an amazing feeling, and at that point I realised that
while the bike wasn't perfect, it wasn't the bike that was the problem
with how I felt.

Ergo, I would now not give it up willingly, except if I'd done several
long rides on a.n.other bike and found I really did prefer that one... I
can't just pick up a bike, ride it for a couple of miles, and know I'll
get on with it. It took me two years of occasional nervous forays out
on this one (with much tinkering between times) to finally have the
'eureka' moment on it

--


Velvet

 

Michael MacClancy wrote:

> On 30 Jul 2004 12:30:22 +0100, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>
>
>
>>In reality, I think the reason people are trying so hard to encourage
>>her is because they've forgotten how things that seem so completely
>>intuitive aren't to start with, and the fact that it's actually
>>unusual to feel completely relaxed and at home on a bike like most of
>>us do, and it takes some learning.
>>
>
>
> Well, she's been doing it for long enough.
>
> Both Pete and I have suggested that she creates her own artificial barriers
> to progress.
>

Yes, I do tend to sometimes - but not without good reasons (to me). I
am not a confident person by nature, I worry (often needlessly). That
takes it's toll. And yes I've had the bike for three? years, but if you
saw the miles it's done in that time - this year is the first year
(april onwards) that it's had anything like regular decent miles put on it.

--


Velvet

 

in message <[email protected]>, Velvet
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Michael MacClancy wrote:
>
>> Why not? Have you thought about having your current bike converted
>> to flat
>> bars? You wouldn't have to reach as far and the brakes should be
>> more effective. The gear changers would also be more accessible.
>
> Beeecaaaause, I use the bars I have to move around a lot on a 50 mile
> ride, and I won't be able to do that with flats.

Velvet: you like your bike. That's fine. You don't have to defend your
choice. I get the feeling that you're not enjoying this thread. If I'm
right, just drop out of it. The nature of Usenet is that arguments
continue until one or other party stops posting. It isn't impolite not
to reply, so unless you have testosterone poisoning and really _need_
to have the last word, just don't.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; lovely alternative to rice.

 

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:18:56 GMT, Velvet <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just because I don't currently get down onto the drops, why exactly is
> this a problem? No I'm not using the bars to 100% of their
> capabilities, but why should I either?

No problem. On my bikes with drops I parctically never use the full
dropped position, and braking from there requires slightly more
stretching than from riding on teh hoods. Like Velvet, I really
don't understand why that's a problem. (I also practically never use
the granny gear, and in my car I don't think I've ever used top speed
- does this mean I should scrap my gearing and also buy a different
car?)

> I can cycle down sodding hills, I just choose not to cycle down really
> steep ones at the moment.
>
> Both times I fell off my bike as a kid were on down hills. One ended up
> with me in a rosebush with heavy bike on top of me.

Ooh, I've done that. My first bike - fixed - took feet off pedals
near top of hill, met kerb and soon thereafter rosebush at bottom of
hill.

My worst cycle crash (in terms of injury) was also a result of taking
my hand off teh bars while going down a steep hill and losing control.
Admittedly it was as a child, having not long learnt to ride, but
since Velvet is quite open that she's still building confidence on teh
bike it may well be comparable situation.

Those of a squeamish disposition may care to skip to teh next
paragraph, but I fell off, and by a fluke of airborne gymnastics
managed to put the fingers of one hand down a drain grating and then
fell over the hand, bending all the fingers backwards rather further
than is intended. I didn't break them all, but there were a few
floppy fingers dangling around. Even recounting it now (some 20 years
later) makes me feel a little light-headed! The hospital then stuck a
cream I was allergic to (despite being told of my reaction to it)
inside the temporay splint & dressing, with a consequence that they
got two of those stainless-steel kidney-shaped dishes full of blood
out of teh one humongous blister my hand turned into.

Braking significantly while descending a steep gradient _is_
destabilising on a bike - it's something I try to avoid doing (indeed,
I expect it's something every expereinced cyclist does - like avoiding
braking hard on a sharp bend, or while traversing road markings).
That Velvet sometimes chooses to do so by dismounting, while I tend to
do so by letting the bike accelerate under gravity, doesn't really
seem to be worth getting so critical about to me.

Besides, there are some downhills where I walk - mainly offroad, but I
see no reason to believe that Velvet's roads aren't steeper than teh
ones I normally ride. Getting off an walking seems an eminently
sensible approach to a section of route where one isn't confident of
handling how the situation may develop.

> I would rather persevere and continue building my skills and confidence
> with the bike I have than go start all over again with a different one,
> and effectively abandon the idea of riding this one.

Sounds like an excellent plan to me.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

Velvet wrote:
> Thanks, it was starting to feel like lots of digs - though I do
> understand Peter's reasons behind them.

I owe you an apology for trying to ram help down your throat: sorry!

Even though well intentioned, pretty pointless saying it if it doesn't
actually help :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinc[email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> In reality, I think the reason people are trying so hard to encourage
> her is because they've forgotten how things that seem so completely
> intuitive aren't to start with, and the fact that it's actually
> unusual to feel completely relaxed and at home on a bike like most of
> us do, and it takes some learning.

I had the advantage of learning road bikes when young, but my first one
came equipped with suicide levers which I used a lot because I didn't
like the feeling of being on the drops.

When I got my second racer, I nearly crashed on the test ride because it
had "normal" brake levers and I couldn't find them. It took some time of
riding very slowly around the village until I began to get used to
riding on the drops.

Now... Head down, sprint as hard as I can, brace, and brake. But even
now I find switching bikes to require a brief period of courage. After
two weeks of riding inna recumbent stylee, jumping onto the Giant
resulted in a very slow and cautious ride to work!

So. Keep going. Ride lots. It'll all come naturally in the end.

Jon

 

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> This is indeed the case, so if you /can't/ use the drops then you can't
> use the *brakes* to 100% of their capabilities.

Not so sure about this. It's easier to brace from the drops, and I can
potentially get more leverage there, but the DP brakes on my Giant will
happily lock both wheels even when I'm riding on the hoods (Trust me on
this one, I've done it!).

Jon

 

"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> No, that's a long ride to me. But it is /not/ a long ride to people
> who do Audax events, and that is the sort of ride your bike is targeted
> at.

Beg to differ, m'lud. The bike may be called an 'audax', but all that really
means is something between a traditional tourer and a racing bike. My
similar machine won't do long rides at all - it's doing commute-type rides.
(the tandem is for the long rides).

If a galaxy or similar is suitable for a big bloke, then I suspect an audax
will be a more suitable equivalent for a smaller person who won't give it
such a hard time.

cheers,
clive

 

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:42:42 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:18:56 GMT, Velvet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just because I don't currently get down onto the drops, why exactly is
>> this a problem? No I'm not using the bars to 100% of their
>> capabilities, but why should I either?
>
> No problem. On my bikes with drops I parctically never use the full
> dropped position, and braking from there requires slightly more
> stretching than from riding on teh hoods. Like Velvet, I really
> don't understand why that's a problem.

Works for you but I guess your hands are bigger and stronger than Velvet's.

If it isn't a problem why did she write in her first post?

> Braking is good in emergencies, but only vaguely ok on downhills -
> mostly down to my hands rather than the brakes I think, a lack of finger
> strength to keep the brakes on hard for a long time.


--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

 

Yup my Merckx & Peugeot will too (Ultegra DP and 105 DP respectively)

Velvet, I use Aztec, Fibrax, Barradine and Koolstop blocks, don't really know which is best as I need to change them so infrequently that I forget what the others are like.

There are several factors that determine effectiveness of brakes. The block/rim interface, the calipers, the levers and the cables.

 

Jon Senior wrote:

> Not so sure about this. It's easier to brace from the drops, and I can
> potentially get more leverage there, but the DP brakes on my Giant will
> happily lock both wheels even when I'm riding on the hoods (Trust me on
> this one, I've done it!).

Have you ever pointed out that you have relatively small and weak hands,
though?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

Michael MacClancy wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:42:42 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith wrote:
>
>
>>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:18:56 GMT, Velvet <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Just because I don't currently get down onto the drops, why exactly is
>>> this a problem? No I'm not using the bars to 100% of their
>>> capabilities, but why should I either?
>>
>>No problem. On my bikes with drops I parctically never use the full
>>dropped position, and braking from there requires slightly more
>>stretching than from riding on teh hoods. Like Velvet, I really
>>don't understand why that's a problem.
>
>
> Works for you but I guess your hands are bigger and stronger than Velvet's.
>
> If it isn't a problem why did she write in her first post?
>
>
>>Braking is good in emergencies, but only vaguely ok on downhills -
>>mostly down to my hands rather than the brakes I think, a lack of finger
>>strength to keep the brakes on hard for a long time.
>
>
>

Cos I've yet to learn to provide only the barest of information in order
to get the info I want, on usenet ;-)

--


Velvet

 

> Don't think this is about the bike that much.
> They way it comes across to me, and which is how I would respond in
> Velvet's place, is getting pissy because someone is forcing help down
> my throat. People have the right to make their own mistakes, decide
> how and when they want to learn things and how and when they want to
> reach certain discussions. If you want to convince me of something it
> works better to give a gentle push in the right direction, and then
> leave me alone to work it out for myself. Flooding with arguments
> makes me stubborn and defensive.

Besides, most of the 'problems' have a good side. While Velvet may not be
too keen on lots of weight on the arms, I think of her lovely arms... Same
with the road gearing, hills and her soon to be gorgeous thighs. Come to
think of it, given the distances she's doing, they're probably looking
rather nice already