braking in turns

In article said:

[Irrelevant newsgroups removed from distribution list. Poster notified
as a courtesy.]

Courtesy. [censored]. You cut off r.a.d and emailed me this so I'd would
wade throught the 1000+ post thread in another newsgroup to reply. Since
driving is still part of the topic you can't hide behind it being topical.
It's lowest of usenet tricks.

Quoted message said:

Brent P said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IOW, you can
certainly brake to a reaonable degree in a turn. Pretending this is
impossible shows you are either _amazingly_ inexperienced, or amazingly
closed-minded.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It doesn't make it good practice on public roads. Which is what I thought
we were discussing. Weren't you just objecting to such approaches to
taking a turn or curve? Stating that the driver should be able to judge
it ahead of time and already be going an appropiate speed?

Quoted message said:

There cannot possibly be more than one person reading this who doesn't
brake while turning!

Quoted message said:

And frankly, I doubt there is even one person. IOW, I can't believe
that _you_ actually stay completely off the brakes any time you're in a
turn!

Most turns I am off the brakes before the apex, sometimes before the
turn depending on how sharp it is. I don't want to get into a posistion
where I have to brake harder and turn sharper than I have the traction
for. I have a scar on my right knee from making such a mistake as a
child as I made a late decision to turn at the bottom of a fast downhill.
It's not worth the risk to go through the turn a couple mph faster.

I ride streets. Most turns are from a road that is 90 degrees to
the road I am going on to. There is a low return on pushing the bicycle
to it's traction limits. Sure I'd save a little momentum that way, but
it's not like the 1/10 of second I'll save getting from a to b or when I
am riding just for fun is going to make a difference. It's not a race
and because I am in traffic I can't take the best line through a curve
or a turn anyway. The time savings aren't worth the risk of a fall.

Quoted message said:

One should certainly judge the turn ahead of time, as well as possible,
and choose an appropriate speed. But this is what every rider (and
driver) does on every street corner.

If we were racing, the goal is to take the straightest line and brake the
least. Braking when too far into the turn can cause a loss of traction
and the problems associated with that. Finding out you need to brake too
hard to make the turn when you are too far into it is also a problem.
Braking too much early simply means going through the turn slower. Which
do you think is better for street driving/riding?

You've already chastised Nate for ending up in a curve going faster than
what the speed of the apex is. If you are going to insist that we should
be braking to the apex on the street that is inconsistant with your
chastisement of nate's driving. If we are always going to be looking for
the maximum apex speed, occasionally we are going to be going too fast
and get into trouble and need to deal with it. That's the nature of such
flirting with the limits, and why there is a difference between racing
and driving on the public roads.

So which is it Frank? Do we all try to find the maximum possible speed of
every curve and turn on the road by delaying our braking until we can see
what the apex is, knowing full well that sometimes it will require harder
braking than we have traction for _OR_ make a reasonable estimation of
what speed we need to be at with some cushion as we go into the turn so
we don't get into trouble with only the sacrifice of a slight amount of
speed? And if the later, wouldn't consistant signage be helpful in that
goal?

Not to mention that roads have things like lanes and shoulders that
prevent us from taking the best lines through the curve legally much of
the time anyway. So it's not like taking the curve at the maximum
possible speed is doable anyway.

If I said that since I upgraded the brakes on my car that I wait longer
into the the turn to brake so that I can maximize my speed through the
apex and accelerate out, you'd call me a reckless driver. But that's
very much what you've chastised me for _NOT_ recommending.

Quoted message said:

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Interesting how you bring up bike racing to defend your posistion.

Quoted message said:

I was discussing normal riding, not racing.

Your quote brings up racing.

Frank Krygowski said:

There cannot possibly be more than one person reading this who doesn't
brake while turning!

True enough. Plenty who /try/ not to brake while turning, of course,
but anyone can get it wrong and go into the curve too fast.

And then you get that feeling of the front wheel going sideways and
think: "Ah yes, I remember this feeling, and what comes next is...
ouch!" ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

you know? said:

True enough. Plenty who /try/ not to brake while turning, of course,
but anyone can get it wrong and go into the curve too fast.

Or the many others who aren't pushing adhesion limits at all and use
their brakes for reasons other than turn dynamics. Most people I see
riding do not take turns anywhere near a speed that would limit their
ability to also brake if something happens. They're bopping along at
12-16 mph, having fun, and/or commuting and seeing no reason to do a
curve in any other manner.

And these people can hit their brakes hard on in the curve a do little
more than skid a bit.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...