**** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

[Beastt]

Beastt

(Snip...)

I think it’s safe to say that anyone reading this thread understands your opinion about forming final conclusions at this point of the process. You have stated that position so many times and in so many slightly different ways, that no one could have any doubt about your position on that topic. At this point, repeating that position yet again doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion that hasn’t been made abundantly clear already. Even to someone who strongly agrees with your argument (me), it comes across as a bit heavy-handed and tiresome, to continue “reprimanding” fellow participants when they make any statement that sounds like a final conclusion. In general, when someone states an opinion far beyond the number of times required for everyone to understand their point, continued repetition doesn’t come across as an attempt to convey an idea; it comes across as little more than a reprimand.

(...snip)

Point well taken.

I do wish people could put themselves in a position of having been wrongly accused of a fairly serious infraction and try to offer others the same chance to answer that they would expect. But you're right - both you and Mr. Cotgrove - in saying that I've probably deafened people to the request for fairness at this point. Many are just too thirsty for blood to spend any time weighing the case.

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

Point well taken.

I do wish people could put themselves in a position of having been wrongly accused of a fairly serious infraction and try to offer others the same chance to answer that they would expect. But you're right - both you and Mr. Cotgrove - in saying that I've probably deafened people to the request for fairness at this point. Many are just too thirsty for blood to spend any time weighing the case.

Yes Beastt, your absolutely correct again your comment about too many people ready for blood is of course correct, but as I also eluded to previously, none of us are perfect, just watch the other guys at the football match. It is the way of the human race, some are flawed more so than others, and like the proverbial dogs, will bay for the kill being of the same mentality.

This is one of the reasons why some country's around the world moved away from the death penalty, capital punishment, whatever term is used for killing someone, for a crime against humanity.

For example look at the Asian country's, Indonesia still has a death penalty for trafficing in drugs. One only need to be in possession of what some would consider a couple of days supply of "Marijuana" and it's off with his or her head, so as to speak. They do not discriminate between male or female there if you're caught and found guilty you face the same penalty.

I have often wondered, let us say to be absolutely ridiculous.

Hypothetically, doping is looked upon as crime against humanity, for the valid reason that it influences many young people around the world. These same young people who possibly look up to those upon the worlds sports stage, TDF., Olympics, World Championships and should in a perfect world be above reproach.

If capital punishment was introduced for such infringements classified as crimes against humanity, "Doping", in whatever sport you name, do you honestly think it would be a sufficient deterent to clean up or eliminate doping once and for all in sport all around the world?

I wait for the "ship to hit the sand" on this one, as I have my doubts about it's value!

What say any of you, TBC

 

[limerickman]

The Hamilton case is not decided, as my good friend Beastt says.
Hamilton has not had his day in court and we have not heard his defence.

Most of the opinions expressed here, are just that - opinions.
In legal terms, Hamilton is innocent until proven guilty.
But this brings me to the core of the issue of drug abuse within cycling.
If, after due process, an athlete is found guilty of cheating (doping), the severest reprimand ought to be applied by the UCI.

Let's hypothesise for a moment - let's say Hamilton is found guilty.
What value has his claims of innocence that we're hearing now ?
To my mind, if he is innocent but is found guilty, then we have a grave miscarriage.
If he is found to be guilty - while all the time pleading his innocence - then he is lying and this should compound any sentance to be handed down as punishment.

For me, the sport has had too many cases of doping.
Millar denied he was ever up to anything.
Hamilton denies it now.

To be falsely accused is a terrible crime.
To be rightly accused and to be found guilty is what due process is all about.
But if that due process is interrupted by constant claims of innocence, and that innocence is proven to be in fact guilt, then the punishment ought to be commensurate and to include punishment for the false claims of innocence.

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

The Hamilton case is not decided, as my good friend Beastt says.
Hamilton has not had his day in court and we have not heard his defence.

Most of the opinions expressed here, are just that - opinions.
In legal terms, Hamilton is innocent until proven guilty.
But this brings me to the core of the issue of drug abuse within cycling.
If, after due process, an athlete is found guilty of cheating (doping), the severest reprimand ought to be applied by the UCI.

Let's hypothesise for a moment - let's say Hamilton is found guilty.
What value has his claims of innocence that we're hearing now ?
To my mind, if he is innocent but is found guilty, then we have a grave miscarriage.
If he is found to be guilty - while all the time pleading his innocence - then he is lying and this should compound any sentance to be handed down as punishment.

For me, the sport has had too many cases of doping.
Millar denied he was ever up to anything.
Hamilton denies it now.

To be falsely accused is a terrible crime.
To be rightly accused and to be found guilty is what due process is all about.
But if that due process is interrupted by constant claims of innocence, and that innocence is proven to be in fact guilt, then the punishment ought to be commensurate and to include punishment for the false claims of innocence.

Well said Limerickman, I'm sure that most respondents to this ongoing saga would be open minded enough to give him the benifit of the doubt and as you say until it is proven conclusively that he has cheated let us all keep an open mind.

I can however relate a tale told to me at a recent race meeting here, a cycling aquaintance stated that he worked in and amongst the stars of the peleton as a mechanic, I have no reason to doubt him as I know he did just that (no names, no pack drill) The trick to not bering caught out when taking something was to have the very bad day or days, as well as the good ones too. On the bad days where every thing goes wrong, missed breaks just sitting in on a free ride to the finish line, constant stops by the wayside to evacuate, turn up up late at sign on complianing of gut pains or feeling off etc.,

This is the sort of things that normal everyday people do, I'm sure you've encountered them at a work situations, I have, they bludge the day on an easy job, when there's hard stuff to be done. However when a cream job appears on the horizon all is back to normal the malady forgotten and there they are champing at the bit to be selected for the good one, putting in a blinder or sterling effort to claim the prize and the boss's endorsment to boot?

Why then, should this not occur in our beloved sport, after all most of the participants of the sport are only human like the rest of us, with one very important exception. They are on a world stage getting paid in most or a lot of cases, good money to do what they originally chose and love to do anyway.

The "Festina" affair also saw a few retirements from the peleton too, a case I think, of either go by your own volition or get the heavy handed push and the disgrace associated with the actions.

Maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick too? Who knows where this will all end up?TBC

 

[Saucy]

While you all debate "innocence until proven guilty" (a concept we are all familiar with by the way), nobody here has bothered to report thatTyler has been sacked by Phonak .

I am a little tired of this discussion of due process (which Tyler will receive), a discussion that belongs in the soapbox and pertains to serious issues like guantanamo bay etc. not trivial doping matters.

I come to this thread to hear about and discuss developments in the tyler hamilton story, not re-hash the same debate ad nauseum.

So...any opinions on this latest news?

 

[jhuskey]

While you all debate "innocence until proven guilty" (a concept we are all familiar with by the way), nobody here has bothered to report thatTyler has been sacked by Phonak .

I am a little tired of this discussion of due process (which Tyler will receive), a discussion that belongs in the soapbox and pertains to serious issues like guantanamo bay etc. not trivial doping matters.

I come to this thread to hear about and discuss developments in the tyler hamilton story, not re-hash the same debate ad nauseum.

So...any opinions on this latest news?

Actually ,not to be a wise guy, but I did mention it a couple of days ago but no one responded.
You can look back at my post.
As I said Phonak dropped him and Perez to gain credibility with the UCI. At least this is the rumor I am hearing from my Swiss connection.

 

[Saucy]

Actually ,not to be a wise guy, but I did mention it a couple of days ago but no one responded.
You can look back at my post.
As I said Phonak dropped him and Perez to gain credibility with the UCI. At least this is the rumor I am hearing from my Swiss connection.

Yes, you did predict it, I give you credit on this one. I'm sorry to tell you there is no prize! But now its not just a rumor, its official. A "swiss connection"? Sounds very mysterious. Who is your source? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this stuff gets reported in the european news long before it hits the american sites.

Again, this is another blow for TH. Its all about perception and even though we know that Phonak had to make some concessions, it still looks bad to be sacked by your team.

If Phonak gets accepted into the pro tour after dumping TH and SP, well I think it is complete and utter ****!! If UCI believes that TH and SP are guilty, how can they deduce that team management with 2 riders involved in blood doping (and another rider for EPO) did not know what was going on? The team doctor at least would have to be involved. Apparently UCI has had their eye on Phonak for a while now. If Phonak is suddenly accepted simply because they dump their baggage, it is completely disingenous.

If TH and SP are guilty, then Phonak should be punished. I think harsh punishments need to be dealt to the teams if the sport is sincere in managing the doping problem. The teams should bear some responsibility as well.

 

[jhuskey]

Yes, you did predict it, I give you credit on this one. I'm sorry to tell you there is no prize! But now its not just a rumor, its official. A "swiss connection"? Sounds very mysterious. Who is your source? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this stuff gets reported in the european news long before it hits the american sites.

Again, this is another blow for TH. Its all about perception and even though we know that Phonak had to make some concessions, it still looks bad to be sacked by your team.

If Phonak gets accepted into the pro tour after dumping TH and SP, well I think it is complete and utter ****!! If UCI believes that TH and SP are guilty, how can they deduce that team management with 2 riders involved in blood doping (and another rider for EPO) did not know what was going on? The team doctor at least would have to be involved. Apparently UCI has had their eye on Phonak for a while now. If Phonak is suddenly accepted simply because they dump their baggage, it is completely disingenous.

If TH and SP are guilty, then Phonak should be punished. I think harsh punishments need to be dealt to the teams if the sport is sincere in managing the doping problem. The teams should bear some responsibility as well.

I have a Swiss friend close to cycling and that is exactly what he thinks is going to happen.
I am not sure if the doctors that Phonak hired are still trying to discredit
the new tests.
Should be interesting and I hope not devastating for the cycling world.

 

[Brunswick_kate]

I have a Swiss friend close to cycling and that is exactly what he thinks is going to happen.
I am not sure if the doctors that Phonak hired are still trying to discredit
the new tests.
Should be interesting and I hope not devastating for the cycling world.

I think that the UCI statement was pretty clear that no one can figure this mess out.

Alessandro Celli, Phonak's lawyer, indicated that a provisional report from their experts did not enable them to reach significant conclusions, two of these experts considering that the Lausanne and Athens laboratory tests were invalid, a third having detected certain errors which, however, did not cast doubt upon their reliability, and two others having found nothing abnormal in these tests.​

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/dec04/dec01newsphonak

I find it quite incredible that an entire team has been destroyed over a test that a battery of propeller heads can't interpret. Not exactly the "CSI effect" is it? The entire matter is just repulsive.

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

I have a Swiss friend close to cycling and that is exactly what he thinks is going to happen.
I am not sure if the doctors that Phonak hired are still trying to discredit
the new tests.
Should be interesting and I hope not devastating for the cycling world.

G'day jhuskey, If you thought getting news was bad in the USA you should experience what we have to put up with here in OZ. I know we're at the bottom of the world, well almost, but if things are not pertaining to Cricket, Rugby League, Rugby Union, Swimming, Janah's Knee or the Thorpedo, then forget it completely.

The only time cycling hits the news is when some scribe wants to put the boot in, that happened just prior to the Olympics when the "Ship Hit The Sand" at the "Australian Institute of Sport" all to do with selection of the team and the "Rearing of the Ugly Head of Drugs".

It took centre stage for a week or two but has since died a natural death, with the big haul of medals our cyclists brought home, thank goodness for that?

The only good news we have just received is that the whole of the "TDF" will be televised live in 2005 on our ethnic broadcaster SBS (Special Broadcasting Services), There will be a lot of sleepy people at work for a couple of weeks as it will ahve to go to air from late night till early morning. The only sad part as far a I'm concerned is, I will not be in OZ to see it, but travelling back to the old country visiting relatives, happy to see the rellies but sad to miss out on "Le Tour" bummer?

I agree that Phonak should get a "Kick up the Date" for their part in the whole affair, pleading ignorance of any involvment is no excuse, Bull Sh*t.

UCI should show some real leadership here but the question is, will it, or will they just do lip service as usual to the problem, I have my doubts?

I saw a story on TV just a couple of days ago where a team doctor (football round ball game, my second love) has been sentenced to 22 months in the dungeon for his part in administering EPO to the players of the team. Whether it was Spanish or Italian football, I don't remember but he's got what all those who get involved should get, maybe he'll get only bread and water? Where's the cheese?

Does that do anything for anyone out there!

If not, don't give me a hard time or I'll rip yer bloody arms awf? TBC

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

I think that the UCI statement was pretty clear that no one can figure this mess out.

Alessandro Celli, Phonak's lawyer, indicated that a provisional report from their experts did not enable them to reach significant conclusions, two of these experts considering that the Lausanne and Athens laboratory tests were invalid, a third having detected certain errors which, however, did not cast doubt upon their reliability, and two others having found nothing abnormal in these tests.​

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/dec04/dec01newsphonak

I find it quite incredible that an entire team has been destroyed over a test that a battery of propeller heads can't interpret. Not exactly the "CSI effect" is it? The entire matter is just repulsive.

G'day brunswick_kate, Isn't this such fun, lets all go down the pub and get really plastered, it might just then begin to make sense

One doesn't need to be mad to understand all the Bull Sh*t but it definitely helps

By the way, can I use the bit about, "Insanity has it's price" "HOW MUCH" and do you accept "VISA" or does it have to be cash?

Love it and can't wwwwait to get to use it someday soon? TBC

 

[limerickman]

Well said Limerickman, I'm sure that most respondents to this ongoing saga would be open minded enough to give him the benifit of the doubt and as you say until it is proven conclusively that he has cheated let us all keep an open mind.

I can however relate a tale told to me at a recent race meeting here, a cycling aquaintance stated that he worked in and amongst the stars of the peleton as a mechanic, I have no reason to doubt him as I know he did just that (no names, no pack drill) The trick to not bering caught out when taking something was to have the very bad day or days, as well as the good ones too. On the bad days where every thing goes wrong, missed breaks just sitting in on a free ride to the finish line, constant stops by the wayside to evacuate, turn up up late at sign on complianing of gut pains or feeling off etc.,

This is the sort of things that normal everyday people do, I'm sure you've encountered them at a work situations, I have, they bludge the day on an easy job, when there's hard stuff to be done. However when a cream job appears on the horizon all is back to normal the malady forgotten and there they are champing at the bit to be selected for the good one, putting in a blinder or sterling effort to claim the prize and the boss's endorsment to boot?

Why then, should this not occur in our beloved sport, after all most of the participants of the sport are only human like the rest of us, with one very important exception. They are on a world stage getting paid in most or a lot of cases, good money to do what they originally chose and love to do anyway.

The "Festina" affair also saw a few retirements from the peleton too, a case I think, of either go by your own volition or get the heavy handed push and the disgrace associated with the actions.

Maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick too? Who knows where this will all end up?TBC

Like you, I have two contacts currently racing within the peloton in Europe and they tell me that doping is still prevalent and like, BradMcGee, everyone who is not doping, knows who the dopers are.

My two contacts tell me that they fully realise that they will never get to the top of the sport because (1) they are not as physically gifted as the top men
(2) that they don't want to have to take drugs.
It is known that to be at the top, you have to be either phenomanally gifted,
or have talent but use drugs to make up for the talent shortfall.

Neither of my contacts are "bitter little men who never had the ability to compete" as they say.
Both had gliterring amateur careers and were able to compete.
They're simply happy now to work as part of a team for the team's top riders.

Interestingly, one of them competed against Ullrich as an amateur and is now competing as a professional against him.
My contact says that Jan, in relative terms, was as far ahead of the field as an amateur, as he is as a pro.
In other words, he was/is consistently good.

My other good friend in the media Paul Kimmage appears to concur with this thinking.
If a rider is consistent - and his results show consistency or consistant progression, that this is a sign of perhaps a rider who does not need to dope
(of course, they could be dopers but it is possible/probable, that they're not).

 

[jhuskey]

G'day jhuskey, If you thought getting news was bad in the USA you should experience what we have to put up with here in OZ. I know we're at the bottom of the world, well almost, but if things are not pertaining to Cricket, Rugby League, Rugby Union, Swimming, Janah's Knee or the Thorpedo, then forget it completely.

The only time cycling hits the news is when some scribe wants to put the boot in, that happened just prior to the Olympics when the "Ship Hit The Sand" at the "Australian Institute of Sport" all to do with selection of the team and the "Rearing of the Ugly Head of Drugs".

It took centre stage for a week or two but has since died a natural death, with the big haul of medals our cyclists brought home, thank goodness for that?

The only good news we have just received is that the whole of the "TDF" will be televised live in 2005 on our ethnic broadcaster SBS (Special Broadcasting Services), There will be a lot of sleepy people at work for a couple of weeks as it will ahve to go to air from late night till early morning. The only sad part as far a I'm concerned is, I will not be in OZ to see it, but travelling back to the old country visiting relatives, happy to see the rellies but sad to miss out on "Le Tour" bummer?

I agree that Phonak should get a "Kick up the Date" for their part in the whole affair, pleading ignorance of any involvment is no excuse, Bull Sh*t.

UCI should show some real leadership here but the question is, will it, or will they just do lip service as usual to the problem, I have my doubts?

I saw a story on TV just a couple of days ago where a team doctor (football round ball game, my second love) has been sentenced to 22 months in the dungeon for his part in administering EPO to the players of the team. Whether it was Spanish or Italian football, I don't remember but he's got what all those who get involved should get, maybe he'll get only bread and water? Where's the cheese?

Does that do anything for anyone out there!

If not, don't give me a hard time or I'll rip yer bloody arms awf? TBC

First of all this is unofficial but I believe it is good info considering the source.
It looks like Phonak will not get their license based on the fact that Hamilton was still on the team when they apparently made a decision 2 weeks ago.

Yes I know they held a hearing ,I believe last week, on the matter,why? I don't follow their logic here but thats the way they did it.

Phonak could still put a team in the big three next year plus the tour since these races have not joined the pro league as yet, however without Tyler and Perez they don't have enough points to be elligible.

Bottom line ,the Phonak team may,and I quote "may" be history. That is from the horse's mouth so to speak.
I really like Tyler and enjoyed watching the Phonak Team in the first stages of the tour last summer.
Terrible shame, all that money invested!

On a lighter note Ullrich is skiing right now. That's it for my Suisse News connection.

 

[Perro Loco]

Like you, I have two contacts currently racing within the peloton in Europe and they tell me that doping is still prevalent and like, BradMcGee, everyone who is not doping, knows who the dopers are.

My two contacts tell me that they fully realise that they will never get to the top of the sport because (1) they are not as physically gifted as the top men
(2) that they don't want to have to take drugs.
It is known that to be at the top, you have to be either phenomanally gifted,
or have talent but use drugs to make up for the talent shortfall.

Neither of my contacts are "bitter little men who never had the ability to compete" as they say.
Both had gliterring amateur careers and were able to compete.
They're simply happy now to work as part of a team for the team's top riders.

Interestingly, one of them competed against Ullrich as an amateur and is now competing as a professional against him.
My contact says that Jan, in relative terms, was as far ahead of the field as an amateur, as he is as a pro.
In other words, he was/is consistently good.

My other good friend in the media Paul Kimmage appears to concur with this thinking.
If a rider is consistent - and his results show consistency or consistant progression, that this is a sign of perhaps a rider who does not need to dope
(of course, they could be dopers but it is possible/probable, that they're not).

What you say echos what I have heard from other scources. It also makes you think long and hard about Santi Perez in the Vuelta. A talented rider probably, but suddenly he is "ripping the legs off" one of the best contemporay climbers (Heras). I was amazed at how easy he made it look, and probably should have been suspicious at the time.

Further info of note
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/dec04/dec01news
there is a link to a copy of the UCI report on Phonak
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/dec04/dec01newsphonak

It turns out the early reports are true that the U.C.I. warned Phonak about abnormal blood results during the season.
From the U.C.I. ....

that on several occasions during 2004 doubts had arisen about the abnormal readings observed in the blood of certain riders in the Phonak team. The team's managers had been summoned to clarify this matter.

While I had initialy been supportive of Tyler, the weight of evidence is accumulating- I will await his formal hearing- but at present things do not look good for him.

 

[Brunswick_kate]

G'day brunswick_kate, Isn't this such fun, lets all go down the pub and get really plastered, it might just then begin to make sense

One doesn't need to be mad to understand all the Bull Sh*t but it definitely helps

By the way, can I use the bit about, "Insanity has it's price" "HOW MUCH" and do you accept "VISA" or does it have to be cash?

Love it and can't wwwwait to get to use it someday soon? TBC

Down to the pub....Finally someone on this thread who has a lick of sense left. Trust an Australian to keep the priorities straight.

As far as the cost of insanity....IN GOD WE TRUST, ALL OTHERS CASH. Other than that, plagiarize at will...Heavens know I did.

 

[jhuskey]

Down to the pub....Finally someone on this thread who has a lick of sense left. Trust an Australian to keep the priorities straight.

As far as the cost of insanity....IN GOD WE TRUST, ALL OTHERS CASH. Other than that, plagiarize at will...Heavens know I did.

All the problems and troubles in the world and your first thought is about having a BEER.......... yes I can see that to be a logical conclusion also.

Prost!

 

[Brunswick_kate]

All the problems and troubles in the world and your first thought is about having a BEER.......... yes I can see that to be a logical conclusion also.

Prost!

<Grin> and like this doesn't make YOUR head swim...by the way, did you get a chance to read the article on Velonews about laboratory concerns brought up by Joey D'Antoni and his allegations of deficient laboratory practices. Makes a person think twice, no?

 

[jhuskey]

<Grin> and like this doesn't make YOUR head swim...by the way, did you get a chance to read the article on Velonews about laboratory concerns brought up by Joey D'Antoni and his allegations of deficient laboratory practices. Makes a person think twice, no?

No I haven't, but will give it a look.

 

[James Felstead]

seems Phonak are no longer disputing the validity of the test

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=733

"Highlighting a change of strategy within the team, Freuler said they are 100 per cent sure that the test for blood doping is valid and said that the team would not be aiding Hamilton and Perez in their respective fights against blood doping charges."

So yet again the sport demonstrates a complete lack of ethics and principles.

What a joke.

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

seems Phonak are no longer disputing the validity of the test

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=733

"Highlighting a change of strategy within the team, Freuler said they are 100 per cent sure that the test for blood doping is valid and said that the team would not be aiding Hamilton and Perez in their respective fights against blood doping charges."

So yet again the sport demonstrates a complete lack of ethics and principles.

What a joke.

G'day James Felstead, once again everyone bails out when the going get tuff?

I watched on TV or heard more like it whilst cooking breakfast today, that the Ceo of WADA, **** Pound, is looking to collect a few scalps very soon as the "supplyer of steriods"? one "Victor Conti" who is supposd to be assisting a trial or enquiry at present will blow the whistle and is going to shoot a few names their way, very soon.

Mentioned, were Marion Jones, another USA track and field sprinter, didn't get that name but Victor Conti says he has supplied to more than a dozen athletes and cycling was also mentioned but nothing or no one specific as yet.
I'm sure the "Ship will Hit the Sand" very soon, so keep watching the news spots, that's if you can stand any more **** mongering?
Keep the wheels turning