breaking through plateau's

[roadster99]

so, as a regular lurker here, i finally have another question for you guys.

after doing a bit of reading here, it seems there are a bit of differing opinions about breaking through a plateau. some say, ~5min Vo2max intervals to bump up that wattage. some say, short, high-intensity anaerobic intervals to bump up that wattage. some say, climb a hill you have never climbed before, or just do something that is outside of your ordinary training plan to kind of "confuse" your body.

my question is, which should i try? should i try all 3? i've reached a plateau in my cycling that i can't seem to break through. i've reached it a few times before thinking that it was burn-out. now i think it is a plateau. i would take time off, "de-train" from the time off, then rebuild back to this same level. i can't seem to surpass it.

i'll also give an example. on the local hill, my pavg is 240w for about a 20 min climb. for me at my level of fitness, i'm satisfied. so far that is my PR. my goal is to be able to climb at 270w. why? 5w/kg. is 30w too much to ask of my body? i've tried some anaerobic intervals for a couple of weeks. then retested. i lost 10w. what is the best plan of action to up the wattage and break through the 240w barrier?

thanks for all of the advice. i really appreciate it!

 

[frenchyge]

As horrifying as it may seem, yes, 5w/kg may just be too much to ask. 4.4w/kg might be your lot in life... pick better parents next time.

Seriously, 4.4 is pretty darned good and 5 is incredible. Power increases north of 4.4 are probably going to come slowly, if at all. Are you doing everything you can to maximize training load, recovery, and nutrition as you proceed to that level, or would you say that your training is somewhat haphazard?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

As horrifying as it may seem, yes, 5w/kg may just be too much to ask. 4.4w/kg might be your lot in life... pick better parents next time.

+1
5 w/kg is a lofty target, but not necessarily unreasonable. How have you been training to date, how many years and how consistently throughout the year. IOW, if you're at 4.4 w/kg on talent and limited structured training then 5 is probably a reasonable goal. If you've been dialing in your training and have been at it consistently for a long time then it just might not happen.

FWIW, of the methods suggested I'd skip the anaerobic short efforts to bring up your FTP. Some folks like VO2 Max pull up work, some prefer backing off to SST after a sustained period of focused L4 work.

But most agree that focused L4 work racking up consistent weekly time in 20 to 30 minute sustained efforts is a sure bet if you haven't already been doing just that.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[roadster99]

As horrifying as it may seem, yes, 5w/kg may just be too much to ask. 4.4w/kg might be your lot in life... pick better parents next time.

Seriously, 4.4 is pretty darned good and 5 is incredible. Power increases north of 4.4 are probably going to come slowly, if at all. Are you doing everything you can to maximize training load, recovery, and nutrition as you proceed to that level, or would you say that your training is somewhat haphazard?

LOL! Well, next time I'll choose Lance Armstrong as my father & Dara Torres as my mother!

Haphhazard seems a bit strong, but I won't say that I am doing absolutely EVERYTHING in my power to focus on training load, recovery and nutrition. I do work full-time to support my wife & son, so there are speed bumps along the way. I know I could probably bump up my CTL, but at the moment this schedule ensures the best mix of "time-with-bike" and "time-with-family."

At first glance, my schedule is very "interval" based and rigid. That probably has alot to do with my concern. But, I've read in these forums that if you don't have the time, up the intensity. In addition, over the past 3 weeks, I've thrown in the anaerobic workouts to bump the watts. Otherwise, it's the usual 2x20 workout.

mon: 2x20
tues: 7 sets of 2min on 1min off, w/5 sets of 1min on 30sec off
wed: off
thurs: 2x20
fri: 7 sets of 2min on 1min off, w/5 sets of 1min on 30sec off
sat: group ride, 4hrs avg
sun: off

after reading the replies, how does this look?

mon: 2x20
tues: workout consisting of 5min Vo2max intervals (haven't figured it out yet)
wed: off
thurs: 2x20
fri: workout consisting of 5min Vo2max intervals
sat: group ride, 4hrs avg
sun: off

 

[roadster99]

+1
5 w/kg is a lofty target, but not necessarily unreasonable. How have you been training to date, how many years and how consistently throughout the year. IOW, if you're at 4.4 w/kg on talent and limited structured training then 5 is probably a reasonable goal. If you've been dialing in your training and have been at it consistently for a long time then it just might not happen.

FWIW, of the methods suggested I'd skip the anaerobic short efforts to bring up your FTP. Some folks like VO2 Max pull up work, some prefer backing off to SST after a sustained period of focused L4 work.

But most agree that focused L4 work racking up consistent weekly time in 20 to 30 minute sustained efforts is a sure bet if you haven't already been doing just that.

Good luck,
-Dave

A solid 3 years of riding under my belt. I would say that there have been a good amount of ups and downs during those 3 years. I've just started to structure a plan over this past year. I guess that's why I'm here lurking...To learn how to "dial-in" my training to take it a step higher! So I take it that the Vo2max intervals are a bit more beneficial for 20min power increases? Vo2max it is...

 

[roadster99]

To Frenchyge and Daveryanwyoming, thank you very much for the quick replies!

 

[DJA]

so, as a regular lurker here, i finally have another question for you guys.

after doing a bit of reading here, it seems there are a bit of differing opinions about breaking through a plateau. some say, ~5min Vo2max intervals to bump up that wattage. some say, short, high-intensity anaerobic intervals to bump up that wattage. some say, climb a hill you have never climbed before, or just do something that is outside of your ordinary training plan to kind of "confuse" your body.

my question is, which should i try? should i try all 3? i've reached a plateau in my cycling that i can't seem to break through. i've reached it a few times before thinking that it was burn-out. now i think it is a plateau. i would take time off, "de-train" from the time off, then rebuild back to this same level. i can't seem to surpass it.

i'll also give an example. on the local hill, my pavg is 240w for about a 20 min climb. for me at my level of fitness, i'm satisfied. so far that is my PR. my goal is to be able to climb at 270w. why? 5w/kg. is 30w too much to ask of my body? i've tried some anaerobic intervals for a couple of weeks. then retested. i lost 10w. what is the best plan of action to up the wattage and break through the 240w barrier?

thanks for all of the advice. i really appreciate it!

5w/kg is high but what if you get it! Isn't that why we train to reach for those higher levels. Just don't expect it to happen over night it may take months or longer if at all.
If your target is 270w avg try setting your intervals to that power output or slightly higher and about 5min work 5min recovery x4. Do that for 3weeks then in the next cycle up the power to 285w avg. Then in the 3rd cycle up the power to 300w avg don't forget to include a rest week between each cycle and try that local climb after the the recovery weeks when you should be fresher.

 

[Piotr]

so, as a regular lurker here, i finally have another question for you guys.

after doing a bit of reading here, it seems there are a bit of differing opinions about breaking through a plateau. some say, ~5min Vo2max intervals to bump up that wattage. some say, short, high-intensity anaerobic intervals to bump up that wattage. some say, climb a hill you have never climbed before, or just do something that is outside of your ordinary training plan to kind of "confuse" your body.

my question is, which should i try? should i try all 3? i've reached a plateau in my cycling that i can't seem to break through. i've reached it a few times before thinking that it was burn-out. now i think it is a plateau. i would take time off, "de-train" from the time off, then rebuild back to this same level. i can't seem to surpass it.

i'll also give an example. on the local hill, my pavg is 240w for about a 20 min climb. for me at my level of fitness, i'm satisfied. so far that is my PR. my goal is to be able to climb at 270w. why? 5w/kg. is 30w too much to ask of my body? i've tried some anaerobic intervals for a couple of weeks. then retested. i lost 10w. what is the best plan of action to up the wattage and break through the 240w barrier?

thanks for all of the advice. i really appreciate it!

How long have you been at it? Perhaps you need to be more patient. I seem to be in the same boat having reached 4.8 W/kg, but I'm still seeing very modest year to year gains with a lot of hard work (relatively speaking since I can't afford to train 5-6 hrs/day). I have long since determined that because my anaerobic gains (peaking) are relatively easy to come by, I have to spend a lot of time working on increasing my threshold (not the highest yet in my power profile). To do that I have sacrificed "time off" in the fall, "fun" in the summer, and many team rides so as not to take away from "building the engine". It is paying off, but it takes patience.

Think in terms of where you want to be 5 years from now, not 5 months. 30 W in 5 years is within the realm of possibility for someone like you and me. I frequently read people talking about gaining 20-30 watts within a season. Well, one needs to consider what kind of percentage increase that is and also the fact that they most likely had to lose that power in the off-season first. I never allow myself to lose that much wattage, so as not to waste time rebuilding rather than building.

FWIW, 3 years ago I thought I was as good as I'll ever get. I got better.

 

[roadster99]

5w/kg is high but what if you get it! Isn't that why we train to reach for those higher levels. Just don't expect it to happen over night it may take months or longer if at all.
If your target is 270w avg try setting your intervals to that power output or slightly higher and about 5min work 5min recovery x4. Do that for 3weeks then in the next cycle up the power to 285w avg. Then in the 3rd cycle up the power to 300w avg don't forget to include a rest week between each cycle and try that local climb after the the recovery weeks when you should be fresher.

will do. i was starting to think of doing something along those lines. thanks for the support!

 

[roadster99]

How long have you been at it? Perhaps you need to be more patient. I seem to be in the same boat having reached 4.8 W/kg, but I'm still seeing very modest year to year gains with a lot of hard work (relatively speaking since I can't afford to train 5-6 hrs/day). I have long since determined that because my anaerobic gains (peaking) are relatively easy to come by, I have to spend a lot of time working on increasing my threshold (not the highest yet in my power profile). To do that I have sacrificed "time off" in the fall, "fun" in the summer, and many team rides so as not to take away from "building the engine". It is paying off, but it takes patience.

Think in terms of where you want to be 5 years from now, not 5 months. 30 W in 5 years is within the realm of possibility for someone like you and me. I frequently read people talking about gaining 20-30 watts within a season. Well, one needs to consider what kind of percentage increase that is and also the fact that they most likely had to lose that power in the off-season first. I never allow myself to lose that much wattage, so as not to waste time rebuilding rather than building.

FWIW, 3 years ago I thought I was as good as I'll ever get. I got better.

thanks for the inspiration! maybe i should be a bit more realistic about my goal. i was under the impression 30w wasn't that big of a jump. as i read over the tyson thread (it's killing me but...), he seems to have shown such vast improvement over the course of just one year. i know our physiological body types are totally different. but having that type of goal and being able to reach it was my hope. now i think it may be too much. thanks again for the reply!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...after reading the replies, how does this look?

mon: 2x20
tues: workout consisting of 5min Vo2max intervals (haven't figured it out yet)
wed: off
thurs: 2x20
fri: workout consisting of 5min Vo2max intervals
sat: group ride, 4hrs avg
sun: off

If you can pull that off for more than a week or two you're either superman or you're already closer to that 5w/kg goal than you think and your FTP is underestimated. Dedicating 2 L4 days and 2 L5 days per week is a tall order. You might do it for a while but training takes time and I doubt you could or would want to sustain that much intensity for very many weeks.

How about replacing one of the short interval days in your current schedule with a medium length Tempo/SST day where you ride for two or more hours and try to do sustained efforts(30-60 minute blocks) at 80-90% of your FTP. Those will do more for overall training load (CTL) and target core metabolic fitness than the short intervals you describe which will primarily target your AWC.

Harder isn't always better, especially if it costs you overall weekly and monthly training load. The high end emphasis in your current and proposed plans almost certainly cost you CTL or depth. The VO2 Max work could definitely help pull up your FTP if it doesn't fry you mentally or physically but the really short intervals are really targeting the wrong systems.

-Dave

 

[roadster99]

If you can pull that off for more than a week or two you're either superman or you're already closer to that 5w/kg goal than you think and your FTP is underestimated. Dedicating 2 L4 days and 2 L5 days per week is a tall order. You might do it for a while but training takes time and I doubt you could or would want to sustain that much intensity for very many weeks.

How about replacing one of the short interval days in your current schedule with a medium length Tempo/SST day where you ride for two or more hours and try to do sustained efforts(30-60 minute blocks) at 80-90% of your FTP. Those will do more for overall training load (CTL) and target core metabolic fitness than the short intervals you describe which will primarily target your AWC.

Harder isn't always better, especially if it costs you overall weekly and monthly training load. The high end emphasis in your current and proposed plans almost certainly cost you CTL or depth. The VO2 Max work could definitely help pull up your FTP if it doesn't fry you mentally or physically but the really short intervals are really targeting the wrong systems.

-Dave

sounds like a plan, then. in response to my previous plan, my plan usually consisted of 2 weeks of training, 1 week easy. then 2 weeks on, 1 easy. i've managed for 3 cycles now, since a fellow rider has told me to structure something and become more consistent in what you do. previously, it was mainly staying in the L4 region with 20-25min intervals. maybe 2-3 times a week, non-structured. I just didn't feel like i was getting anywhere with that though. like i was on a plateau, like the title of this thread states. i will admit that i do feel tired at times, but there are days when i'm with the group that i feel straight on point. and it would show with the way i rode. although honestly, there feels to be some up-down feeling with my fitness. some days i just feel pooped, and some i feel on it. i didn't take into consideration maybe i was doing too much, targeting the wrong systems. that same fellow rider had suggested them to me to "get my body used to doing higher wattages."

so, what i will do now is try to fit in some sst training into my schedule as recommended. hopefully it will help push that limit.

also, should i try another hill? there's another hill semi-close by that has a pretty steep gradient. i don't usually go there because it's not as close as my usual training hill, plus it has a very high hurt factor. but it's steep enough to where they don't lay tarmac, but sections of already set concrete. i was just thinking because some people mention to try new things and don't stay stagnant.

thanks for the help dave. you have brought a lot of insight into what i am doing wrong and what i should be doing right to reach a new goal.

 

[jsirabella]

How about a simpler approach? If all you are interested in is the watts/kg, how about shedding a few pounds. I would guess that you will have a much easier time doing that and maintain your current output than the other way around. Or a little of both?

You are from HI so that is probably the best approach as you are dealing with hills everywhere from what I heard.

-js

 

[frenchyge]

If all you are interested in is the watts/kg, how about shedding a few pounds.

Heh, my math is coming up with a 54kg rider already...

I wasn't sure what gender or age poster we were dealing with until the comment of "wife and son" came up.

OP, 30 watts doesn't seem like a terribly big deal in absolute terms, but considering your size and how far along you've already gotten, adding another 12% is a pretty sizeable jump. 4.5-5w/kg for 20 minutes is pretty impressive for someone with competing priorities.

 

[jsirabella]

In a sport of really thin people 120lbs is not that obscene which is where he is at now and we do not know his height or bf%.

I do not think adding 30 watts is an easy task especially where he is at already 4.5 watts/kg which is a number I can not even imagine for myself. But if he would loose ~10 lbs that would make him at ~110lbs and if he keeps the same output that would mean he is at 4.8 watts/kg and if he raises his watts by only 10 watts which is 240-250 watts he is presto chango 250/50 = 5.0 watts/kg.

I think easier to loose ~10 lbs and add ~10 watts than to add 30 watts at current weight.

-js

Heh, my math is coming up with a 54kg rider already...

I wasn't sure what gender or age poster we were dealing with until the comment of "wife and son" came up.

OP, 30 watts doesn't seem like a terribly big deal in absolute terms, but considering your size and how far along you've already gotten, adding another 12% is a pretty sizeable jump. 4.5-5w/kg for 20 minutes is pretty impressive for someone with competing priorities.

 

[roadster99]

In a sport of really thin people 120lbs is not that obscene which is where he is at now and we do not know his height or bf%.

I do not think adding 30 watts is an easy task especially where he is at already 4.5 watts/kg which is a number I can not even imagine for myself. But if he would loose ~10 lbs that would make him at ~110lbs and if he keeps the same output that would mean he is at 4.8 watts/kg and if he raises his watts by only 10 watts which is 240-250 watts he is presto chango 250/50 = 5.0 watts/kg.

I think easier to loose ~10 lbs and add ~10 watts than to add 30 watts at current weight.

-js

Sorry jsirabella. I'm 5'7" (ok, ok 5'61/2"), 120lbs soaking wet, ~3% body fat, and if i don't eat right on a 4hour ride, i dip so low it takes 3-4 days for me to feel normal again. i'm thinking i metabolize so fast that what goes in, comes right out, whether it's water, energy or heat. for me to lose 10 lbs, i'll look so anorexic and my health will be so poor, i'll probably lose fitness. I really appreciate the "outside-of-the-box" thinking though! but at my current, what is it, bmi? i think i'm at the limit when it comes to weight. so the only option i have is to gain power...

 

[Meek One]

Sorry jsirabella. I'm 5'7" (ok, ok 5'61/2"), 120lbs soaking wet, ~3% body fat, and if i don't eat right on a 4hour ride, i dip so low it takes 3-4 days for me to feel normal again. i'm thinking i metabolize so fast that what goes in, comes right out, whether it's water, energy or heat. for me to lose 10 lbs, i'll look so anorexic and my health will be so poor, i'll probably lose fitness. I really appreciate the "outside-of-the-box" thinking though! but at my current, what is it, bmi? i think i'm at the limit when it comes to weight. so the only option i have is to gain power...

Hey, you're the same size I was when I was in the best shape of my life in 7th grade. Had unending energy, lapped people doing the mile in PE...

BMI is ****. Most worthless term ever. Doesn't take into account body composition. There can be huge difference between two people with the same ht and wt if one is 5% Bf and the other 30%.

You know since we know you are already as lean as possible, I may suggest that sometimes if you actually gain a little weight you can add an even greater than proportional amount of strength. Depends a lot on the individual, but bodybuilders for example after a contest gain some weight and are immediately much stronger. Not sure if my anerobic analogy works for the aerobic system as well. But no doubt I am probably wrong and will get flamed for my comments as usual...

 

[roadster99]

You are from HI so that is probably the best approach as you are dealing with hills everywhere from what I heard.

-js

but you are right, it is a pretty hilly area. plus, it's summer year round. i'm not sure how it happened, but one of our club riders was able to network himself and get into contact with Tom Danielson (Garmin-Chipotle). When Tom came down to Oahu and Maui for some training right before the Tour Down Under, he graciously spent some time riding with our club (along with Pua Sawicki from Ellsworth, who, i might add is from here!). i can say he had fun climbing all of the ridges we have out here. plus he tackled hale'akala on Maui and did pretty well. i'm not sure he took out Ryder Hesjedal's record (2hrs32min? something like pavg of 350w! what?!?!?) but from what i heard, he "wasn't timing himself." which is why i'm kinda fixated on climbing. my club has ALWAYS had this KOM thing going on. it's always a race to the top of the hill; any hill. if you can climb, you get alot of respect from everyone. plus, my body type isn't one for TT's or flat-land hammers. i get blown around like a feather. so i'm kind of interested right now in taking my natural strength and refining it over the course of this next year. hopefully, with some sst training as stated by DAVE and a little Vo2 work, i'll be able to see some gains by the end of the year.

Thanks again to all who have contributed! Free advice that is good advice is always hard to come by!

 

[roadster99]

Hey, you're the same size I was when I was in the best shape of my life in 7th grade. Had unending energy, lapped people doing the mile in PE...

BMI is ****. Most worthless term ever. Doesn't take into account body composition. There can be huge difference between two people with the same ht and wt if one is 5% Bf and the other 30%.

You know since we know you are already as lean as possible, I may suggest that sometimes if you actually gain a little weight you can add an even greater than proportional amount of strength. Depends a lot on the individual, but bodybuilders for example after a contest gain some weight and are immediately much stronger. Not sure if my anerobic analogy works for the aerobic system as well. But no doubt I am probably wrong and will get flamed for my comments as usual...

no i kind of understand what you're saying. put a little muscle on in the gym and hopefully it will translate into a bit more power on the road. maybe i can try that too. but i may reserve that for the next off season since racing is starting up here already. i don't want to get caught up spending too much time in the gym and taking time away from my time in the saddle. thanks!

 

[jsirabella]

Wow...3% bf...To be honest, IMHO, this is too low for just about anything except a BB contest and you would only hold it for the show. Your story is a bit scary that you would need off so much time from a ride.

Well if they are going to flame Meek than they may as well flame me because I would suggest the same thing he did. I would tell you to put on a few pounds and I would do it fast. My idea would be, actually take off a couple weeks, load the carbs and get your bf% up a few points and than get to the training Dave suggested.
Also I would not stop eating while training...I actually think a ~10% should be where you should be for racing and training unless you want the 3% for other reasons.

I am sorry but I have to agree with french and Dave that you probably will not be able to raise power as you are probably at your fittest and may be at your genetic limit. And your numbers are not shabby at all...

-js

Sorry jsirabella. I'm 5'7" (ok, ok 5'61/2"), 120lbs soaking wet, ~3% body fat, and if i don't eat right on a 4hour ride, i dip so low it takes 3-4 days for me to feel normal again. i'm thinking i metabolize so fast that what goes in, comes right out, whether it's water, energy or heat. for me to lose 10 lbs, i'll look so anorexic and my health will be so poor, i'll probably lose fitness. I really appreciate the "outside-of-the-box" thinking though! but at my current, what is it, bmi? i think i'm at the limit when it comes to weight. so the only option i have is to gain power...