breathing compensate for altitude? + pressure?

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Biker Kya, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Biker Kya

    Biker Kya Guest

    Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?

    Group: rec.backcountry Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 6:03am (EST+5) From:
    [email protected] (Ilja Friedel)
    Bruce W.1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On exhale it helps at high altitudes to pucker you mouth and blow. In
    terms of altitude how much compensation does this provide?
    This slide seems to have the answer:
    http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/streamb/fin10www/sld014.htm
    How many thousands of feet can humans generate in their mouth?
    65cm (2ft) of water would bring you from 2000ft to sea level.
    Impressive! But if you get a slightly larger differential (at least 4ft
    according to some SCUBA literature) you might experience lung rupture.
    Ilja.

    biker's .
     
    Tags:


  2. Tom Phillips

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Biker Kya wrote:
    >
    >
    > Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?



    What do you mean "compensate" for altitude?
    You mean running at altitude?

    Breathing techniques at altitude may help you
    breath more efficiently at altitude, but
    altitude issues have more to do with hypoxia
    (low oxygen) than hypobaria (low atmospheric
    pressure), although both can affect physiology.
    On the other hand I've seen people hyperventilate...

    I'd say making sure you're well hydrated (which
    means no alcohol or other diuretics) and eating
    a high carb diet would be more beneficial. Maybe
    some extra B vitamins.


    > Group: rec.backcountry Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 6:03am (EST+5) From:
    > [email protected] (Ilja Friedel)
    > Bruce W.1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On exhale it helps at high altitudes to pucker you mouth and blow. In
    > terms of altitude how much compensation does this provide?
    > This slide seems to have the answer:
    > http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/streamb/fin10www/sld014.htm
    > How many thousands of feet can humans generate in their mouth?
    > 65cm (2ft) of water would bring you from 2000ft to sea level.
    > Impressive! But if you get a slightly larger differential (at least 4ft
    > according to some SCUBA literature) you might experience lung rupture.
    > Ilja.
    >
    > biker's .
     
  3. Biker Kya

    Biker Kya Guest

    Re: breathing compensate for altitude? + pressure?

    Group: rec.running Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2005, 3:08pm (EST-2) From:
    [email protected] (Tom Phillips)
    Biker Kya wrote:
    Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?
    What do you mean "compensate" for altitude? You mean running at
    altitude?


    ...........no a manometer.............
    Breathing techniques at altitude may help you breath more efficiently at
    altitude, but altitude issues have more to do with hypoxia (low oxygen)
    than hypobaria (low atmospheric pressure), although both can affect
    physiology. On the other hand I've seen people hyperventilate...

    ............everyone don't own a high alt tent............

    I'd say making sure you're well hydrated (which means no alcohol or
    other diuretics).....................
    Walk the line...............
    ...........Hay if johney cash can do it so can I..............
    and eating a high carb diet would be more beneficial. Maybe some extra
    B vitamins.
    ....................
    or hot dogs and mac and cheese. and a beer..........possum gets 2 of
    corse......
    dame cords burn pop up breaker on to off last ight............ chain
    busted....... I taken another day off.clean house read a book..... eat
    spagettie.....

    another good idea. when run state land woods trails, carry camel back,
    drink water. then when swim. blow air in camel back. get on back.and
    swim distance in trio train........ keep ear plugs so not get swimmers
    ear.......

    biker's .
     
  4. whe we play boys club basketball and cause a riot when we won.2 that
    year one for pool too.
    we in the locker roon use to sniff match heads.

    then again if you want to blow in a hose with water.

    or eat high carbs and vitamins B. and breeth heavy.

    jonney cash is dead, butt not forgotten. bless his soul
    Now that was a man......
    his movies as apolice sheriff were realy good and his songs were the
    best.

    I still say a big club well keep the woods people in line if they just
    don't here. Quit messing with me.
    you have no idea.

    my friends don't back stab me..

    and my grass is cut.
     
  5. Biker Kya wrote:
    >
    > Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?



    Zero. Pursed-lipped breathing only helps airway collapse, such as in
    advanced emphysema patients. At altitude, your airways are just as open
    as at sea level, so pursed-lipped breathing to keep them open does
    nothing. The problem is that there just ain't as much oxygen in the air
    at altitude. The only way to compensate is to breathe faster so you get
    more of that oxygen-poor air and overall you get what you need.

    -- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse (closest altitude is Adirondack Mountains)
     
  6. My companey canned people that canned me 3 years back. Jonney cash
    walk the line.
    all went to florida again.
    i said no then. tent and crok food and wait for the man to show so I
    could get a job.
    was wash away in storms there. so they doing it again.
    our land was awarded ours......
    so f off.......
    I breath normal.
    and no what.
    you can't can me no more.
     
  7. Sam

    Sam Guest

    At altitude you have hypobaric conditions, but the percentage of O2 is still
    ~21%.


    "Tom Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    > Biker Kya wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?

    >
    >
    > What do you mean "compensate" for altitude?
    > You mean running at altitude?
    >
    > Breathing techniques at altitude may help you
    > breath more efficiently at altitude, but
    > altitude issues have more to do with hypoxia
    > (low oxygen) than hypobaria (low atmospheric
    > pressure), although both can affect physiology.
    > On the other hand I've seen people hyperventilate...
    >
    > I'd say making sure you're well hydrated (which
    > means no alcohol or other diuretics) and eating
    > a high carb diet would be more beneficial. Maybe
    > some extra B vitamins.
    >
    >
    >> Group: rec.backcountry Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 6:03am (EST+5) From:
    >> [email protected] (Ilja Friedel)
    >> Bruce W.1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On exhale it helps at high altitudes to pucker you mouth and blow. In
    >> terms of altitude how much compensation does this provide?
    >> This slide seems to have the answer:
    >> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/streamb/fin10www/sld014.htm
    >> How many thousands of feet can humans generate in their mouth?
    >> 65cm (2ft) of water would bring you from 2000ft to sea level.
    >> Impressive! But if you get a slightly larger differential (at least 4ft
    >> according to some SCUBA literature) you might experience lung rupture.
    >> Ilja.
    >>
    >> biker's .
     
  8. Tom Phillips

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Sam wrote:
    >
    > At altitude you have hypobaric conditions, but the percentage of O2 is
    > still ~21%.



    To those of us who have been at altitude
    your factual assumption belies reality...

    Yes, the 21% O2 is a constant, but with
    reduced pressure there is still _LESS_ O2
    available (i.e., the air is less dense), and
    this, not hypobaria, results in a condition
    of hypoxemia. Hypobaric conditions would have
    little effect on exercise but low blood
    oxygenation _does_.

    Breathing techniques can improve breathing
    efficiency but will _not_ compensate for
    the fewer number of oxygen molecules in the
    air at altitude. And increasing one's rate
    of aerobic or anaerobic breathing will likely
    only cause you to hyperventilate.


    > "Tom Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >
    > > Biker Kya wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?

    > >
    > >
    > > What do you mean "compensate" for altitude?
    > > You mean running at altitude?
    > >
    > > Breathing techniques at altitude may help you
    > > breath more efficiently at altitude, but
    > > altitude issues have more to do with hypoxia
    > > (low oxygen) than hypobaria (low atmospheric
    > > pressure), although both can affect physiology.
    > > On the other hand I've seen people hyperventilate...
    > >
    > > I'd say making sure you're well hydrated (which
    > > means no alcohol or other diuretics) and eating
    > > a high carb diet would be more beneficial. Maybe
    > > some extra B vitamins.
    > >
    > >
    > >> Group: rec.backcountry Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 6:03am (EST+5) From:
    > >> [email protected] (Ilja Friedel)
    > >> Bruce W.1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> On exhale it helps at high altitudes to pucker you mouth and blow. In
    > >> terms of altitude how much compensation does this provide?
    > >> This slide seems to have the answer:
    > >> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/streamb/fin10www/sld014.htm
    > >> How many thousands of feet can humans generate in their mouth?
    > >> 65cm (2ft) of water would bring you from 2000ft to sea level.
    > >> Impressive! But if you get a slightly larger differential (at least 4ft
    > >> according to some SCUBA literature) you might experience lung rupture.
    > >> Ilja.
    > >>
    > >> biker's .
     
  9. Breathing has nothing to do with your attitude. You're just a miserable
    SOB, and no amount of breathing will cure that.
     
  10. bushman

    bushman Guest

  11. Sam

    Sam Guest

    i guess living at 6200 feet does not count?

    It is the pressure gradient that matters. The partial pressure of the
    oxygen is reduced at altitude. Where I live it is about 20% less pressure
    than at sea level (at least under normal conditions).

    The effect is that you will not be able to perform as well in events longer
    than say 45 to 60 sec in duration (except in cycling where the reduced drag
    is a benefit even in something like the hour record).

    Breathing exercises MIGHT help develop ventilatory muscles, but the studies
    suggesting an improvement in performance are far fewer than the ones showing
    no improvement. Jim Williams at Texas Tech (and formerly Ole Miss) has
    published several studies on this concept.


    "Tom Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    > Sam wrote:
    >>
    >> At altitude you have hypobaric conditions, but the percentage of O2 is
    >> still ~21%.

    >
    >
    > To those of us who have been at altitude
    > your factual assumption belies reality...
    >
    > Yes, the 21% O2 is a constant, but with
    > reduced pressure there is still _LESS_ O2
    > available (i.e., the air is less dense), and
    > this, not hypobaria, results in a condition
    > of hypoxemia. Hypobaric conditions would have
    > little effect on exercise but low blood
    > oxygenation _does_.
    >
    > Breathing techniques can improve breathing
    > efficiency but will _not_ compensate for
    > the fewer number of oxygen molecules in the
    > air at altitude. And increasing one's rate
    > of aerobic or anaerobic breathing will likely
    > only cause you to hyperventilate.
    >
    >
    >> "Tom Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Biker Kya wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >> Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > What do you mean "compensate" for altitude?
    >> > You mean running at altitude?
    >> >
    >> > Breathing techniques at altitude may help you
    >> > breath more efficiently at altitude, but
    >> > altitude issues have more to do with hypoxia
    >> > (low oxygen) than hypobaria (low atmospheric
    >> > pressure), although both can affect physiology.
    >> > On the other hand I've seen people hyperventilate...
    >> >
    >> > I'd say making sure you're well hydrated (which
    >> > means no alcohol or other diuretics) and eating
    >> > a high carb diet would be more beneficial. Maybe
    >> > some extra B vitamins.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >> Group: rec.backcountry Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 6:03am (EST+5) From:
    >> >> [email protected] (Ilja Friedel)
    >> >> Bruce W.1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >> On exhale it helps at high altitudes to pucker you mouth and blow. In
    >> >> terms of altitude how much compensation does this provide?
    >> >> This slide seems to have the answer:
    >> >> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/streamb/fin10www/sld014.htm
    >> >> How many thousands of feet can humans generate in their mouth?
    >> >> 65cm (2ft) of water would bring you from 2000ft to sea level.
    >> >> Impressive! But if you get a slightly larger differential (at least
    >> >> 4ft
    >> >> according to some SCUBA literature) you might experience lung rupture.
    >> >> Ilja.
    >> >>
    >> >> biker's .
     
  12. Tom Phillips

    Tom Phillips Guest

    Sam wrote:
    >
    > i guess living at 6200 feet does not count?


    At altitude is the key word, which hasn't yet been
    defined...

    > It is the pressure gradient that matters. The partial pressure of the
    > oxygen is reduced at altitude.


    _Meaning_ there are fewer O2 molecules to take in
    during normal breathing. You're talking about why
    there is less O2; the issue is how human physiology
    handles the higher altitude enviroment. I also live
    at about that elevation (which doesn't become high
    elevation until around 12,000 ft or so. "Altitude"
    is typcally above 9000ft/2700 meters since that is
    when it begins to affect most people noticably.)
    Physiologically the need to compensate for altitude
    results from a hypoxic condition (hypobaric hypoxia,
    if you will), i.e., fewer oxygen molecules, not air
    pressure.

    > Where I live it is about 20% less pressure
    > than at sea level (at least under normal conditions).


    And less O2. The pressure is significant only because
    it results in significantly fewer O2 molecules (and
    all other gases) in any given breath.

    > The effect is that you will not be able to perform as well in events longer
    > than say 45 to 60 sec in duration (except in cycling where the reduced drag
    > is a benefit even in something like the hour record).


    Perform not as well due to what? The less dense air?
    Is that why it's a benefit to cycling? and baseball?
    (longer home runs), and probably running as well in
    that hypobaric condition? At altitude (as defined)
    less dense air results in less dense O2, the key
    issue physiologically.

    > Breathing exercises MIGHT help develop ventilatory muscles, but the studies
    > suggesting an improvement in performance are far fewer than the ones showing
    > no improvement. Jim Williams at Texas Tech (and formerly Ole Miss) has
    > published several studies on this concept.


    Positive pressure breathing won't overcome it.


    > "Tom Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >
    > > Sam wrote:
    > >>
    > >> At altitude you have hypobaric conditions, but the percentage of O2 is
    > >> still ~21%.

    > >
    > >
    > > To those of us who have been at altitude
    > > your factual assumption belies reality...
    > >
    > > Yes, the 21% O2 is a constant, but with
    > > reduced pressure there is still _LESS_ O2
    > > available (i.e., the air is less dense), and
    > > this, not hypobaria, results in a condition
    > > of hypoxemia. Hypobaric conditions would have
    > > little effect on exercise but low blood
    > > oxygenation _does_.
    > >
    > > Breathing techniques can improve breathing
    > > efficiency but will _not_ compensate for
    > > the fewer number of oxygen molecules in the
    > > air at altitude. And increasing one's rate
    > > of aerobic or anaerobic breathing will likely
    > > only cause you to hyperventilate.
    > >
    > >
    > >> "Tom Phillips" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > Biker Kya wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Re: How much can positive pressure breathing compensate for altitude?
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > What do you mean "compensate" for altitude?
    > >> > You mean running at altitude?
    > >> >
    > >> > Breathing techniques at altitude may help you
    > >> > breath more efficiently at altitude, but
    > >> > altitude issues have more to do with hypoxia
    > >> > (low oxygen) than hypobaria (low atmospheric
    > >> > pressure), although both can affect physiology.
    > >> > On the other hand I've seen people hyperventilate...
    > >> >
    > >> > I'd say making sure you're well hydrated (which
    > >> > means no alcohol or other diuretics) and eating
    > >> > a high carb diet would be more beneficial. Maybe
    > >> > some extra B vitamins.
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >> Group: rec.backcountry Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 6:03am (EST+5) From:
    > >> >> [email protected] (Ilja Friedel)
    > >> >> Bruce W.1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >> On exhale it helps at high altitudes to pucker you mouth and blow. In
    > >> >> terms of altitude how much compensation does this provide?
    > >> >> This slide seems to have the answer:
    > >> >> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/physics/streamb/fin10www/sld014.htm
    > >> >> How many thousands of feet can humans generate in their mouth?
    > >> >> 65cm (2ft) of water would bring you from 2000ft to sea level.
    > >> >> Impressive! But if you get a slightly larger differential (at least
    > >> >> 4ft
    > >> >> according to some SCUBA literature) you might experience lung rupture.
    > >> >> Ilja.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> biker's .
     
  13. Food and Drug Administration's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research
    (CDER). "At the other end of the hose is oxygen, and the individual that
    provides you with the nasal cannula and turns on the canister for your
    20-minute supply is actually dispensing the prescription drug oxygen to
    you."
    Although oxygen bars that dispense oxygen without a prescription violate
    FDA regulations, the agency applies regulatory discretion to permit the
    in-dividual state boards of licensing to en-force the requirements
    pertaining to the dispensing of oxygen, says Szymanski. Many states
    choose to allow oxygen bars; others discourage the businesses by
    requiring strict compliance with the law. However, serious health claims
    made for oxygen, such as curing can-cer or AIDS, or helping ease
    arthritis pain, would be investigated by the FDA, adds Szymanski.

    Healthy or Just Hype?
    Oxygen fans tout the benefits of oxygen as reducing stress, increasing
    energy and alertness, lessening the effects of hangovers, headaches, and
    sinus prob-lems, and generally relaxing the body. But there are no
    long-term, well-con-trolled scientific studies that support these claims
    for oxygen in healthy people. And people with healthy lungs don't need
    additional oxygen, says Mary Purucker, M.D., Ph.D., a pulmo-nary
    specialist in CDER. "We've evolved for millions of years in an
    atmosphere of about 21 percent oxygen."

    The American Lung Association says that inhaling oxygen at oxygen bars
    is unlikely to have a beneficial physiologi-cal effect, but adds "there
    is no evidence that oxygen at the low flow levels used in bars can be
    dangerous to a normal person's health."
    People with certain medical condi-tions are another matter. Some need
    supplemental oxygen, but should not go to oxygen bars, says Purucker.
    People with some types of heart disease, asthma, congestive heart
    failure, pul-monary hypertension, and chronic ob-structive pulmonary
    diseases, such as emphysema, need to have their medical oxygen regulated
    carefully to oxygen-ate their blood properly, says Purucker. "If they
    inhale too much oxygen, they can stop breathing."

    People who have received bleomycin, a chemotherapy used to treat some
    types of cancer, are in danger if they are exposed to high levels of
    oxygen for too long adds Purucker. "People think oxygen is good, but
    more is not necessar-ily better."

    One of the FDA's biggest concerns about oxygen bars is the use of
    "fla-vored" oxygen, says Purucker. The flavor is produced by bubbling
    oxygen through bottles containing aromatic solutions and then pumping
    the vapor-ized scent through the hose and into the nostrils. Some bars
    use oil-free, food-grade particles to produce the aroma, but others may
    use aroma oils. Inhaling oily substances can lead to a serious
    inflammation of the lungs, known as lipoid pneumonia. Even if an
    oil-free medium is used, the purity or sterility of the aerosol that is
    generated cannot be guaranteed. Susceptible cus-tomers run the risk of
    inhaling aller-gens or irritants that may cause them to wheeze.
    Inhalation of live contami-nants such as bacteria or other pathogens may
    lead to infection.

    Other Oxygen Hazards
    Although oxygen doesn't burn, it does fuel the combustion process.
    "Smoking anywhere near oxygen, even in the same room, can be extremely
    dangerous," says Duane Sylvia, a con-sumer safety officer in CDER. While
    some oxygen bars are located in health spas or other facilities that
    don't allow smoking, others are found in night-clubs or casinos where
    smoking is com-mon. Another fire hazard is the addition of substances,
    such as oils, in an oxygen-enriched environment.
    Improper maintenance of oxygen equipment presents a potential danger.
    Some oxygen concentrators use clay fil-ters, which can start growing
    patho-genic microorganisms that can cause infection if they are not
    changed regularly.
    And oxygen cylinders can be very hazardous if they are stored on their
    sides or not kept in a


    Oxygen and Sports
    We've all seen it on TV-a football player runs off the field after a
    play and dons an oxygen mask. "They don't need it," says Conrad Earnest,
    Ph.D., director of exercise physiology at the Cooper Institute in
    Dallas. "It's one of the biggest placebo effects going," he adds. "It's
    a combative activity, so yes, the players are going to be out of breath,
    but it's because of massive exer-tion-not because of lack of oxygen."
    The exception, says Earnest, might be athletes who play at higher
    elevations than they are used to, and don't have time to acclimate. "If
    the New York Giants go to play the Wash-ington Redskins, the benefit of
    oxygen -- if any ­ would be so small it wouldn't be measurable. But if
    they go to play the Denver Broncos -- going from sea level to a
    mile-high altitude -- they may be helped by oxygen while recovering from
    a play."
    And products with added oxygen, such as oxygen-ated water, sports
    drinks, and skin sprays don't impress Earnest, who refers to their
    suppliers as putting "sales before science." "If you drink oxygenated
    water, either the water passes through the gut and has no effect, or the
    acid in the stomach reacts with it and the only ef-fect of the oxygen is
    that it will cause you to burp more," he says.
    The Air Up There
    Atmospheric pressure decreases as altitude increases, making it more
    difficult to breathe. But people living at high altitudes do adapt to
    their environment with-out using additional oxygen, says Mary Purucker,
    M.D., Ph.D., a Food and Drug Administration pulmonary specialist. "The
    blood becomes more efficient at trans-porting oxygen to tissues."
    Healthy people traveling from lower to higher eleva-tions don't usually
    need extra oxygen either, says Robert Mazzeo, Ph.D., an exercise
    physiologist at the Univer-sity of Colorado in Boulder. But if people
    who live at low elevations try to exercise at higher elevations, such as
    the mile-high city of Boulder, they should be aware that exercise will
    be more taxing. "Maximum capacity declines as altitude increases," says
    Mazzeo. "If you're used to running two miles a day, you can still run
    two miles, but not at the same speed."
     
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