Bringing a Specialized Allez Steel Back to Life

[67Rally]

First off, I am a newb to this forum and this is my initial post.

I used to ride regularly in the late 80's and early 90's until my back injury worsened and I blew out my shoulder. Without going into great detail, I derailed my health and put on A LOT of weight over the span of 15 years. I started an aggressive treatment plan for my back and made huge strides to getting my pain managed and, in some cases mitigated. I had purchased a MTB about 6 years ago that I have ridden off and on during that time. In April of '10, I started to ride regularly to the point of losing the bulk of the weight (I went from 363 to 242 - as of yesterday). I am working my way down to where I should be (sub-190) and I am setting my sights on my road bike and returning it to the road.

I don't have a lot of money, and my Allez is in fantastic shape. At my peak of riding (back in the old days), I was putting about 3,000 miles per year. I have done that much this year (in only 7 months). The bike fits me and was always a pleasure to ride. The feel of the steel on the road was fantastic and it took a lot of abuse. Now, after 16 years hanging in my garage, I am bringing her back to life rather than fork over the coin for uncharted waters with a new ride.

I am updating all of the components. I want to update to bar-end indexed shifting, moving from the down tube shifter and I am wondering what I should put in place there to use for cable stops. What have others done?

 

[dabac]

Congrats on finding your way back to the road.

Doing an overall update might be personally fulfilling on a bike that fits you and obviously have great sentimental value - but it's rarely cost effective.
From a money perspective you're usually way better off buying a new (but used) bike instead.
If you really don't have the money for that, plan to spend a lot of time bargain hunting, and brace yourself for the disappointments you'll encounter courtesy of unexpected incompatibilities, special tools that has to be bought etc.
Basically, to make an all-out upgrade a financially viable option you pretty much already have to have the tools, the skills, a stockpile of parts, and a lot of patience to track down the rest of the needed parts.
Buying a complete donor bike and transferring components is a so-so option. There will just about always be some parts that won't transfer, which again will send you off bargain-hunting. And you'll still end up needing a couple of bike specific tools that are only rarely used.

Ask yourself if this is about the bike, or about the ride.
If it's about the ride, then either just replace what's actually needed, or go for a new (used) bike.
If it's about the bike, then you'll just have to muddle along at a pace and scope that your finances allows you.

And to address your question:
-the cheap-and dirty method is to get a pair of cable housing end caps(ferrules?), and solder them to an appropriately sized hose clamp. Then mount clamp around down tube.
-the sensible approach is to buy something like these: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-shimano-alloy-braze-on-down-tube-cable-stops-with-barrel-adjusters-prod5511/ . Purpose made, they do a good job. If your DT whifters are on a wraparound band they might not fit quite as nice as they do on braze-on shifter mounts.
I've successfully used a Dremel to improve fit by removing some more material from the inside of the cable stop.

 

[alfeng]

FWIW. Well, if you aren't buying a NOS set of SunTour Barcons, then, IMO, the least expensive -- but, most significant -- upgrade which someone can make will only cost $200[COLOR= #008000]US[/COLOR] ([COLOR= #ff0000]presuming you choose lightly used components on eBay[/COLOR]) ... you can pay less if you are wise shopper & more if everything has to be new-or-NOS.

• A pair of pre-2007, 10-speed Campagnolo shifters which you should be able to get for less than $150 (figure $130, used) without any effort (new Shimano bar ends could cost about $100 +/-)
• An 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur (less than $40, used) -- I recommend an XT (e.g. 750) for its long cage.

PLUS, depending on the rear frame spacing & hub type:

• Either a 7-speed SunRace Freewheel (~$20, new) or an 8-speed SRAM Cassette -- the 7-speed SunRace Freewheel's cog spacing is close enough to 8-speed cog spacing that you should find it to be a satisfactory substitute for a shifters designed for 8-speed indexed shifting.

Replace the chain on an as needed basis, of course ...

• To me, the 8-speed Shimano chain appears to be a direct copy of the SEDIS Narrow which you may recall from your riding heyday.

FYI. [COLOR= #0000ff]A 10-speed Campagnolo shifter + an 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur == 8-speed Shimano shifting[/COLOR].

The 10-speed, non-QS Campagnolo shifter will index with almost any front derailleur, crankset, and chain. The Xenon-based QS shifters can handle any front derailleur with a Double ... but, IMO, the non-QS shifters will be worth any slight premium.

FYI2. I'm using a c1980 Dura Front derailleur with a 9-speed Shimano chain & Campagnolo shifters on one bike .

FYI3. If you are planning on using a vintage set of Barcons, if they are NOS then they will come with a cable stop that is placed on the down tube where the down tube shifters are located. If you are buying a used pair of Barcons (or, equivalent, of course), then you can buy a banded cable stop from your LBS or eBay ... if you don't buy a Campagnolo "band" then it shouldn't be too expensive because those "stop" were used on the multitude of bikes which had stem shifters -- figure $2-or-$3.

If your frame has braze-ons for the down tube shifters, there are cable stops which sleeve onto the posts ... Shimano's are better than Campagnolo's, IMO.

If-or-when you are inclined to respacing your frame's rear triangle to 130mm (this can be a DIY project ... but, if you still have a bad shoulder then you need to have someone else do the work), you can use the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters for 8-/9-speed Shimano indexing (the hubbub.com alternate rear derailleur cable anchoring is used to achieve 9-speed Shiman indexing) with the fore mentioned rear derailleur and 10-speed Shimano indexing if you get a SRAM Rival/Force/Red rear derailleur OR theoretically 10-speed Shimano indexing if you use a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur + the fore mentioned hubbub.com rear derailleur cable anchoring.

 

[67Rally]

Originally Posted by alfeng .

If-or-when you are inclined to respacing your frame's rear triangle to 130mm (this can be a DIY project ... but, if you still have a bad shoulder then you need to have someone else do the work), you can use the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters for 8-/9-speed Shimano indexing (the hubbub.com alternate rear derailleur cable anchoring is used to achieve 9-speed Shiman indexing) with the fore mentioned rear derailleur and 10-speed Shimano indexing if you get a SRAM Rival/Force/Red rear derailleur OR theoretically 10-speed Shimano indexing if you use a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur + the fore mentioned hubbub.com rear derailleur cable anchoring.

Thank you for the valued input. What is involved in re-spacing the triangle - brute force?

 

[67Rally]

Originally Posted by alfeng .


If your frame has braze-ons for the down tube shifters, there are cable stops which sleeve onto the posts ... Shimano's are better than Campagnolo's, IMO.

I located a set of cable stops that will be suitable to replace the shifters - Shimano pieces.

 

[Steve_A]

67Rally, I applaud you for restoring your Allez. That's the first bike that I was passionately wanting back in the 90s when I got into cycling semi-seriously. I didn't end up getting one, but I still appreciate them. I would only add a couple of items to alfeng's informative post: Some sources for vintage, NOS and vintage-style parts. Velo Orange sources their own line of parts (from overseas, but they are quality), and their site contains lots of good information. I'm sure that they would help you with your questions. Likewise, Rivendell Bicycles site contains a wealth of information. In addition their frames, they sell vintage-style components from existing manufacturers. I'd urge you to take a look at both. I say that a project such as yours is not about the final cost, but about the final result and your satisfaction with it. Best of luck with your riding and wrenching in 2011. Steve

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by 67Rally .



Quote: Originally Posted by alfeng .

If-or-when you are inclined to respacing your frame's rear triangle to 130mm (this can be a DIY project ... but, if you still have a bad shoulder then you need to have someone else do the work), you can use the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters for 8-/9-speed Shimano indexing (the hubbub.com alternate rear derailleur cable anchoring is used to achieve 9-speed Shiman indexing) with the fore mentioned rear derailleur and 10-speed Shimano indexing if you get a SRAM Rival/Force/Red rear derailleur OR theoretically 10-speed Shimano indexing if you use a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur + the fore mentioned hubbub.com rear derailleur cable anchoring.

Thank you for the valued input. What is involved in re-spacing the triangle - brute force?



Yes. Most steel frames can be respaced using the "brute force" ... but, it is less force than you might think.

By my reckoning, you only want to exert about whatever YOU perceive to be about 30 lbs of force equally-and-concurrenly on both dropouts by pulling out on both dropouts at the same time. If you still have a bad shoulder (or, someone with arthritis), then it may be problematic.

You will, of course, be surprised by how little you move the dropouts with that amount of force, but move they will.

Hopefully, the spacing will have changed by between 0.5mm & 1.0mm ...

Repeat, measure, repeat ... until the spacing moves from (presumably) 126mm to 130mm.

Including the time to set the frame down, grab your tape measure, have a sip of soda-orbeer, etc,, you can figure that thisMaybe 5-to-10 minutes depending on how much actual force you exert.

DO NOT USE ANY ADDITIONAL LEVERAGE (e.g., 2x4, whatever) because if you respace the sides separately (as Sheldon Brown has suggested in the past) then you will undoubtedy add mutiple steps to assure that the two dropouts are equidistant from the frame's centerline -- Brown's methodology opens-a-can-of-worms, IMO.

• Additional leverage (true "brute force") is only used, IMO, to correct an improperly spaced rear triangle.

AFTER the frame is adequately spaced, then you will want to realign both dropouts so that they are parallel to the frame's central plane.

You can either use a pipewrench + two small scraps of plywood which you will use to sandwich the dropout OR a large (e.g., 10") crescent wench ... lacking either tool, you could cut a slot in a piece of wood which is perpendicular to the length of the piece of wood -- a perpendicular "grip" on the dropout provides slighltly better leverage and therefore control.

Tweak the dropout with whatever you perceive to be only 5 lbs. of force -- STEEL IS MUCH SOFTER THAN YOU THINK!

"Measure" or eyeball and repeat-as-necessary.

If you don't feel confident about this, then you want a FRAME BUILDER to do the work rather than a "regular" bike shop because the latter may not have someone who has done the work before and/or who is willing to spend the few extra minutes to do it as gently as possible.

A good shop can realign the derailleur hanger.

BTW. A year-or-two ago (who can remember exactly when), I respaced an old (early 70s) French frame from 120mm to 130mm ... it was a bit tougher because the frame was made with regular steel tubing. In the interim, while the frame was hanging from a hook, I kept thinking that I had wished that I hadn't respaced the frame because I am currently inclined to build it with a 120mm wheel ...

WELL, I'm sure it wasn't telekinesis on my part, but that frame, alone, of all the frames I have respaced returned to its original spacing between then and now!?!

I have another French frame (circa 1970) whose stays were simply too robust to respace through only applying my estimated 30 lbs. of force; so, that frame was never respaced.

I have one Trek frame (TrueTemper tubing) that I respaced from 126mm to 120mm.

 

[alfeng]

Sorry for the typos [COLOR= #808080][the "editing function did not work properly][/COLOR] ...

• Including the time to set the frame down, grab your tape measure to the dropouts, have a sip of soda-or-beer, etc,, [COLOR= #0000ff]you can figure that this may take 5-to-10 minutes depending on how much actual force you exert[/COLOR].

 

[Steve_A]

Just a question for alfeng out of curiousity: Could one respace a frame using a threaded rod, washers and nuts? Place the device in the dropouts, turn the nuts toward the outsides of the rod and gradually push the dropouts apart? I suppose you'd have to keep loosening the nuts and removing the device to measure, checking for spring-back of the stays. Just an idea.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by Steve_A .

Just a question for alfeng out of curiousity: Could one respace a frame using a threaded rod, washers and nuts? Place the device in the dropouts, turn the nuts toward the outsides of the rod and gradually push the dropouts apart? I suppose you'd have to keep loosening the nuts and removing the device to measure, checking for spring-back of the stays. [COLOR= #008000]Just an idea[/COLOR].

FWIW. I'm going to say "Yes!" + that's [COLOR= #008000]a very good idea[/COLOR].

Care needs to be taken to ensure that the dropouts are protected from being marred ...

AND, it might be beneficial to slightly BOAT TAIL the dropouts so the "device" is less likely to slip as the dropouts are being spread -- but, that may be unnecessary.

 

[Steve_A]

Cool, glad you like the idea. It's a variation on a homemade headset race press that I read about (and then made/used) on another bike forum years ago. I don't know if my device would result in a more even spread, but at least it doesn't require much muscle. I have no reason to try it now, so if anyone does, let us know!

 

[67Rally]

Fantastic input on the spacing. I am going as modern on this as I can. I've been gobbling up Ultegra 6700 components for use on this ride.

Steve - it truly isn't about the cost (although I am being conscientious of what I spend) and is about the ride. I never had physical issues when I spent entire days on this bike. The frame truly fit me and I have yet to find anything that compares to that fit.

 

[Steve_A]

Rally, It sounds like you're on the road to a really nice bike, best of luck and keep us posted, with pictures and all!

 

[davereo]

Rally this sounds like a great project. Keep in mind that you can offset your cost by selling the original parts. If you do post pictures post them on this thread. This has been a good thread with good ideas being shared.

 

[67Rally]

Originally Posted by Steve_A .

Rally, It sounds like you're on the road to a really nice bike, best of luck and keep us posted, with pictures and all!

Thanks, Steve_A and davereo!

My goal was to get myself down to the 250lb-range by the end of 2010, buying the components along the way. Once I crossed into sub-250s, I'd get the bike built out...but then the Holidays and all the expenses got in the way of getting all the parts. By the way, I still kept going on my exercise plan and just dropped into the high-230s today. I am planning on having the bike built by the end of February.

As far as what will remain on the bike - the original headset and handlebars...that's it. All of the original components are in great shape (all Suntour) and will be put up for sale after I clean everything up.

After the bike is built out for phase I, I will start saving my pennies for the front-end (phase II). I am leaning toward a CF fork and new headset and possibly a CF handlebar, but that is still part of a fact-finding, pricing research process. I may decide to forgo that and stick with what's there, after a few thousand miles.

I will add photos to this post for you all to enjoy!

 

[Steve_A]

Kudos for staying with your program through the holidays! My recommendation for Phase II, stay with the steel fork. But that's my bias. Good riding, Steve

 

[dabac]

Originally Posted by Steve_A .

Just a question for alfeng out of curiousity: Could one respace a frame using a threaded rod, washers and nuts? Place the device in the dropouts, turn the nuts toward the outsides of the rod and gradually push the dropouts apart? I suppose you'd have to keep loosening the nuts and removing the device to measure, checking for spring-back of the stays. Just an idea.

I've never had much luck with "bend-both-simultaneously"-approach. It relies on the assumption that both sides will bend equal amounts for the same force - which isn't a given.
In particular they tend to bend unevenly if one of the chain stays are indented to improve chain ring clearance.
OTOH I've had zero issues with doing one at a time. The amount of force needed to change the spacing is surprisingly modest.
What I prefer is a variation of the Sheldon Brown 2x4 theme.
I put the frame on a work bench, with the rear triangle hanging over the edge. Then I take the handle of an old hockey stick, stick one end under the dropout and brace the middle against the seat tube. Leaning down on the free end of the hockey stick gives plenty of easily controlled leverage and subsequent bending.

 

[67Rally]

Well, as it turns out, my spacing is just fine (thank you, Specialized) and will accept the 10-gear cassette. I visited my local bike shop and spoke with their tech who recently built out an old steel Allez from that was a year or two older than mine. I am all set to get this done...just waiting on the cable stops (Shimano SIS) and some new pedals. The crankset arrived yesterday and I need to figure out which pedals I want to get...leaning toward the new 105s...but I am seeing the Ultegra 6700s are going for right around $100 on the Bay.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by dabac .



Quote: Originally Posted by Steve_A .

Just a question for alfeng out of curiousity: Could one respace a frame using a threaded rod, washers and nuts? Place the device in the dropouts, turn the nuts toward the outsides of the rod and gradually push the dropouts apart? I suppose you'd have to keep loosening the nuts and removing the device to measure, checking for spring-back of the stays. Just an idea.

I've never had much luck with "bend-both-simultaneously"-approach. It relies on the assumption that both sides will bend equal amounts for the same force - which isn't a given.
In particular they tend to bend unevenly if one of the chain stays are indented to improve chain ring clearance.
OTOH I've had zero issues with doing one at a time. The amount of force needed to change the spacing is surprisingly modest.
What I prefer is a variation of the Sheldon Brown 2x4 theme.
I put the frame on a work bench, with the rear triangle hanging over the edge. Then I take the handle of an old hockey stick, stick one end under the dropout and brace the middle against the seat tube. Leaning down on the free end of the hockey stick gives plenty of easily controlled leverage and subsequent bending.


I can't argue with your success!

However, considering the cost of hockey sticks ([COLOR= #808080]at least, the last time I looked[/COLOR]), I'm not sure if using one of your old (?) hockey sticks is the most economical choice for a lever.

 

[67Rally]

So the bike is built, but I have a few more things to get. I need to get a new seat post so that I can set the seat angle appropriately.

The spacing was spot-on perfect and everything went together correctly and fit was fantastic. My pedals are en route in shipment so they are obviously not on the bike yet.