British/Irish Lions Tour of New Zealand 2005 Spoiler

[EoinC]

the game has moved on for sure...

I know it's pretty old, but what do you all think of the points ratio between Tries, Conversions and Penalties? Has it changed the game into focusing more upon the kicking than on pushing for the Try?

 

[chch_legend]

I know that with the 4 try bonus point in place for competitions like Super 12, Tri-nations and the NZ NPC, teams have been focusing on scoring trys, as these bonus points are worth a lot at the pointie end of the competition just ask a few of the teams in this years Super 12.

 

[darkboong]

I know it's pretty old, but what do you all think of the points ratio between Tries, Conversions and Penalties? Has it changed the game into focusing more upon the kicking than on pushing for the Try?

Quite the reverse for England. I remember watching those interminable mauls grinding up and down the pitch followed by a stab at the goal posts. It was pretty dreary stuff to watch and play. England still fall back to that style of play.

 

[limerickman]

I know it's pretty old, but what do you all think of the points ratio between Tries, Conversions and Penalties? Has it changed the game into focusing more upon the kicking than on pushing for the Try?

I think that the game has focussed more on kicking and scoring from place kicking.

The game itself is not as entertaining.
The golden era of rugby for me was the 1970's and early 1980's.
Tries were scored more frequently - whereas now with the emphasis of "rugby league" defensive systems, neither team can break through to score tries as frequently.

The outhalf's traditional role was to be a playmaker - think of Barry Johm/Phil
Bennett.
They controlled the game before
Even in the relatively modern era - guys like Grant Fox, while kicking, they also controlled the game along the Bennett/John template.

Now the game is full of autonomons.
Johnny Wilkinson can't run the ball because "the system" tells him to play to a given pattern.

(or maybe I'm just getting old !).

 

[darkboong]

I think that the game has focussed more on kicking and scoring from place kicking.

The game itself is not as entertaining.
The golden era of rugby for me was the 1970's and early 1980's.
Tries were scored more frequently - whereas now with the emphasis of "rugby league" defensive systems, neither team can break through to score tries as frequently.

I think that's more of a case of better defensive technique to be honest, no team is going to leak points to make the game more exciting... The game style seems to be cyclical.

Remember Serge Blanco ? In his day those legendary counter-attacks were the exception rather than the rule. In this day and age we frequently see Full-Backs running 30 yards when they used to kick for touch regular as clockwork. Talking of which, I'd love to see more of Laharrague in International matches.

 

[EoinC]

Quite the reverse for England. I remember watching those interminable mauls grinding up and down the pitch followed by a stab at the goal posts. It was pretty dreary stuff to watch and play. England still fall back to that style of play.

It's interesting to watch the game evolve as each new style that arises receives a counter-style. I agree on the mauls - they're not the most entertaining style to watch, especially compared with a burst by a Fullback for the length of the field.
Another thing that has contributed to less ball movement is the almost universal flatter style of line that is being played now, with the defenders playing right on the offside limits. The downside of playing this way is that, if the attackers do break through, there is little or no back-up defence.
The advent of the extremely fast wingers has seen heavy marking and the ball being contained in the centre. This, in turn, has lead to a more 'League-ish' style of stop-start brute force.
In the Super 12's we have been seeing a lot of multi-phase play, with little ground being made - a sign of the heavy emphasis on defence in the current game and the focus on forcing a turn-over.

 

[EoinC]

...The golden era of rugby for me was the 1970's and early 1980's...

I, too, favour the game of the 70's and 80's, but it may well be the use of amber-tinted beer goggles that causes me to do this as I seem to think the same of cycling.
I like to see a lot of ball movement (rugby ball, that is) and I think it is being stifled by the vastly improved defense skills being shown today. This is probably just a cycle whereby we get to see more up-and-under kicks or something inorder to get the breakthroughs.

 

[darkboong]

This is probably just a cycle whereby we get to see more up-and-under kicks or something inorder to get the breakthroughs.

That's a good point, there is room for improvement for kicking from the hand.

 

[StartledPancake]

The game itself is not as entertaining.
The golden era of rugby for me was the 1970's and early 1980's.
Tries were scored more frequently - whereas now with the emphasis of "rugby league" defensive systems, neither team can break through to score tries as frequently.

Except in rugby league of course, where they score plenty of tries. The ball handling in union is still too poor for lots of tries to be scored. The Aussies are masters at it, which is why until recently they were peerless (and as I remember their RU team was bolstered by no less than 5 RL playes at the start of the world cup).

It looks like the full strength AB side is a serious force to be reckoned with after they demolished Fiji 91-0. Lots of people are saying that Fiji werent up for it but as I understand (I havnt seen the match) the AB's got lots f hard tackles in early on to demoralise them. Cripes.

 

[limerickman]

I, too, favour the game of the 70's and 80's, but it may well be the use of amber-tinted beer goggles that causes me to do this as I seem to think the same of cycling.
I like to see a lot of ball movement (rugby ball, that is) and I think it is being stifled by the vastly improved defense skills being shown today. This is probably just a cycle whereby we get to see more up-and-under kicks or something inorder to get the breakthroughs.

As I say, I like modern rugby, it just seemed that the rugby in the 1970/80's
was more exciting (but then I was a rugby fanatic back then too).

 

[limerickman]

Except in rugby league of course, where they score plenty of tries. The ball handling in union is still too poor for lots of tries to be scored. The Aussies are masters at it, which is why until recently they were peerless (and as I remember their RU team was bolstered by no less than 5 RL playes at the start of the world cup).

It looks like the full strength AB side is a serious force to be reckoned with after they demolished Fiji 91-0. Lots of people are saying that Fiji werent up for it but as I understand (I havnt seen the match) the AB's got lots f hard tackles in early on to demoralise them. Cripes.

I agree SP, the handling skills in league are superb.
I think of the likes of Ellery Handley, Martin Offiah, Mal Maninger etc.
Big men who could run and pass as well as any Union outhalf.

I didn't see the Fiji game either.
But that result for the AB's just indicates that they mean business.

The AB's though can play at several levels and that's why I admire them.
I well recall NZ playing France back in the very late 1970's.
The first test was in the old French national stadium Stade Colombie.
The first test was pure physical stuff : the French literally tried to beat up the All Blacks and France won that game marginally.
The AB's regrouped and came up with an expansive game and literally destroyed France at the Parc des Princes.
The heavy/tough frnech forwards couldn't match the speed and the agility of
a mobile AB pack.
That's the beauty of the AB game - they can play the physical stuff and the
sublime rugby too.

 

[darkboong]

That's the beauty of the AB game - they can play the physical stuff and the
sublime rugby too.

Aye, they do have a good track record for versatility. That said, I was a quite surprised at how thoroughly RSA took the All Blacks apart with 'schoolboy' rugby in that World Cup final.

 

[EoinC]

...I didn't see the Fiji game either.
But that result for the AB's just indicates that they mean business...

I managed to catch the 1st Half of AB vs Fiji last night. It was 50 / 0 when I left at Half Time. The All Blacks were enjoying themselves. the Fijians started well, pushing the AB's back deep in their own half, but the first try knocked the wind out of their sails and it was containment from there on. The Fijians were doing some good tackles, but were being caught on a back foot as they tried to play a flat line.
Kelleher played a blinder (in my book). To me he is a true team player. His ability to do well placed offloads whilst being pounced upon by a gaggle of stout Fijians was very impressive. He also re-introduced the long pass, providing dramatic changes to the direction of play.
2 new players, Sivivatu on the Left Wing and Ryan at No.4, made great showings. Sivivatu scored 2 tries while I was watching, and followed with 2 more in the 2nd Half. He appeared to be a bit like Roko, but maybe carrying more weight. Excellent footwork and reading of set-piece plays. Ryan played very well and obviously had his heart in it. He looks like a schoolboy, but played solidly and was not afraid to jump in. These 2 should be seeing more game time in the future.
Carter was as good as ever. Missed a few conversions, but his tenacity and control in the running game was as good as it has ever been. He has developed much broader skills over the past year.
Major also played a great first Half. He was dominating in play and created a lot of phases which ended in tries or near-tries.
Umaga showed some good turns of speed and seemed to be the Umaga of old. He has always impressed me in his role as a Captain, both with the AB's and the 'Caines. very good at both firing the boys up and settling them down. It sounds like he may have done some damage to his ankle.
Today's Maori vs Lions is shaping up to be a humdinger. Hopefully Gibbes, Holah, Gear, Ralph and Leon MacDonald will provide a solid body for a team that have not spent much time together. McAlister may be able to provide a touch of Super 12 brilliance. No doubt Spencer will get a run at some stage.
The Maori's will have to take the game to the Lions as they are up against a very strong showing with a heavy frontline and excellent defense.
My guess is for the Lions to take it, but I hope for a great showing from an inspired Maori pack. The Maori's need to be able to carry their control all the way to the end of the game.

 

[EoinC]

Aye, they do have a good track record for versatility. That said, I was a quite surprised at how thoroughly RSA took the All Blacks apart with 'schoolboy' rugby in that World Cup final.

That has been a fault of the All Blacks for some time. They can turn the game upside down throughout a series or championship, wasting all in their path, and then lose focus at the very end and throw it away.

 

[darkboong]

Umaga showed some good turns of speed and seemed to be the Umaga of old. He has always impressed me in his role as a Captain, both with the AB's and the 'Caines.

Umanga has always struck me as an awesome cap. Never flashy, but always effective, 100% committed. Umanga doesn't seem to get enough credit for his graft.

While on the topic of players who don't get enough credit : Joost vd. Westhuizen and Yashvilli deserve a lot more credit. Scrum-halves seem to be neglected in the hero worship stakes.

 

[EoinC]

Maori's vs. Lions was an excellent match, and not just because the Maori won. It was hard and fast rugby from Go to Whoa. I was surprised at just how well the Maori played. The Lions were strangely nervous throughout. Tackling was good from both sides and the Lions' defense was strong and fast.
Spencer came on earlier than I was expecting and definitely boosted the Maori's play and confidence. Jonno Gibbes did a very good job as Captain and managed to keep a lid on the behaviour. The scrums were pretty awesome with the Lions definitely taking control.
The Lions were on the backfoot all the way through until the last 10 minutes or so, when they attacked heavily and the Maori's showed that they also had a strong defence.
The game was played largely in the centre, with Rico Gear hardly getting a look in. There was very little kicking and the whole game was tight and hard. I thought both sides performed well, but the Maori's domination of possession determined that they deserved the win.

 

[EoinC]

Lions took out Southland, 26-16. I didn't catch the game, but it sounded like the Stags were still playing hard to the end. I watched Lions vs Otago and Otago faired better than I expected, but faded as the Lions ramped up in the last quarter.
Saturday is the 1st of the big ones. How will the Lions stand up against the All Blacks? They've had a fairly hard run so far while most of the AB's have been stood down from the games. All Blacks should be determined not to be outdone by the Maori's victory. Lions should be very focused and will be trying for scrum ball. They have been disappointing in the Line Out, but this could well change.
Here's the All Black Team (via Planetrugby):
Starters: 15 Leon MacDonald, 14 Doug Howlett, 13 Tana Umaga (captain), 12 Aaron Mauger, 11 Sitiveni Sivivatu, 10 Daniel Carter, 9 Justin Marshall, 8 Rodney So'oialo, 7 Richie McCaw, 6 Jerry Collins, 5 Ali Williams, 4 Chris Jack, 3 Carl Hayman, 2 Keven Mealamu, 1 Tony Woodcock.
Replacements: 16 Derren Witcombe, 17 Greg Somerville, 18 Jono Gibbes, 19 Sione Lauaki, 20 Byron Kelleher, 21 Rico Gear, 22 Mils Muliaina.

I'm pleased to see Leon MacDonald getting another run. I like his play and determination. Also good to see Sivivatu having a go. A pretty solid-looking starting 15 with a good spread on the bench. It's going to be hard for the British Lions at Christchurch, home of this years Super 12 winners. Worth sneeking home from work for.

 

[chch_legend]

The AB's look strong can't say the same thing about the Lions. Back, Hill and Corry as the loose trio, and Jonny at 2nd 5/8th. Whats the deal with that???? Keeping him one position further away from our loosies. I think it'll be a tougher game than most expect but I anticipate the AB's to win by 10-15 points.


I'm making the trip to Christchurch from Melbourne spending 4 days catching up with mates and drinking a lot of Macs Gold. So the obligitory ride along Beach Road on Saturday and Sunday mornings will have to take a back seat to beer and rugby....it was a difficult choice, but one that had to be made.

 

[EoinC]

...it was a difficult choice, but one that had to be made.

We all appreciate the sacrifice you are making. I'll watch out for you in the crowd - you'll be the one drinking Mac's Gold, right? Have a good one.

 

[limerickman]

The Lions team announcement for the first test has got a mixed reaction here.

Corry, Hill and Back are under discussion as well as Jonny Wilkinson.

I think the Peel/Jones partnership was correct selection.
Wilkinson in the centre is more difficult.
Woodward wants to have a right foot and left foot kicker on the Lions side, so Wiko and Jones makes sense from that point of view.
But Wilko at centre - will he perform ?
Hard one.

The Lions backrow is the real worry.
Jerry Collins and McCaw against the grand old men of England.
The AB;s must be favourites in this contest.

Thank God Woodward has managed to remove himself from the Steve Thompson teet and has selected the best hooker Shane Byrne.

Jason Robinson at fullback will have a lot of pressure on him.

I think this Lions team will lose on Saturday (I hope not but my head says it will).