Brooks B17

[Woland99]

I kept hearing about it and after another painful Sunday ride on my
Fizik
Wing Flex (not sure about model - probably early Rondine - either way
it
should be called Butt Kick not Wing Flex) I went out and bought one -
B17 Special - green with copper rivets and rails. Looks like a
spaceship
from planet Retro just landed on my seatpost. Just took it for a short
spin
around the hood and I like it a lot. Will have to wait for the longer
ride to
asses the comfort but it seems like a step in the right direction from
Fizik.
I ride Novara Randonee - touring bike - so slightly bigger saddle is
very much
in place and those few extra square inches to support quite a few
extra
pounds will probably do the trick. What was a bit strange was how
"slippery"
it was compared with Fizik. And despite being slightly heavier it felt
like
climbing (in and slightly out of the saddle) was much much easier.
I cant wait it to take it for longer ride and break it in. No more
blue Mondays!

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Woland99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1c62f203-436c-4555-8ccd-37c7148275cc@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> I went out and bought one -
> B17 Special - green with copper rivets and rails. Looks like a spaceship
> from planet Retro just landed on my seatpost. Just took it for a short
> spin
> around the hood and I like it a lot. Will have to wait for the longer
> ride to asses the comfort but it seems like a step in the right direction
> from
> Fizik.

Usually the B17 is about as comfortable as a good plastic saddle while new
and as it breaks in it gets progressively more comfortable. I was rather
surprised that it actually got comfortable. After 20 years on plastic
saddles the best of which were bearable and nothing more, I never knew that
you could actually feel comfortable on a saddle.

 

[Crescentius Vespasianus]

Woland99 wrote:
> I kept hearing about it and after another painful Sunday ride on my
> Fizik
> Wing Flex (not sure about model - probably early Rondine - either way
> it
> should be called Butt Kick not Wing Flex) I went out and bought one -
> B17 Special - green with copper rivets and rails. Looks like a
> spaceship
> from planet Retro just landed on my seatpost. Just took it for a short
> spin
> around the hood and I like it a lot. Will have to wait for the longer
> ride to
> asses the comfort but it seems like a step in the right direction from
> Fizik.
> I ride Novara Randonee - touring bike - so slightly bigger saddle is
> very much
> in place and those few extra square inches to support quite a few
> extra
> pounds will probably do the trick. What was a bit strange was how
> "slippery"
> it was compared with Fizik. And despite being slightly heavier it felt
> like
> climbing (in and slightly out of the saddle) was much much easier.
> I cant wait it to take it for longer ride and break it in. No more
> blue Mondays!
------------
You got past the hardest part, fitting it on the bike. As you probably
found out there isn't much usable rail to move it back. It won't be as
slippery as you break it in, which will take longer than you think. But
you will learn to really appreciate the feel after that. Some say
though it turns into an ass-hatchet in the rain, I don't know because if
there is even the slightest weather forecast of rain, I take my rain
bike with the plastic saddle. It might take you a 1000 miles to get it
to start breaking in, so be patient.

 

[Kenneth]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:15:08 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Will have to wait for the longer
>ride to
>asses the comfort but it seems like a step in the right direction
^^^^^
^^^^^

Howdy,

That's a great double-meaning typo. But that aside, I
suspect that you will love the Brooks. And I have always
found that the break-in is no big deal. They just seem to
get better with every ride.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

 

[Woland99]

On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Woland99 wrote:
> > I kept hearing about it and after another painful Sunday ride on my
> > Fizik
> > Wing Flex (not sure about model - probably early Rondine - either way
> > it
> > should be called Butt Kick not Wing Flex) I went out and bought one -
> > B17 Special - green with copper rivets and rails. Looks like a
> > spaceship
> > from planet Retro just landed on my seatpost. Just took it for a short
> > spin
> > around the hood and I like it a lot. Will have to wait for the longer
> > ride to
> > asses the comfort but it seems like a step in the right direction from
> > Fizik.
> > I ride Novara Randonee - touring bike - so slightly bigger saddle is
> > very much
> > in place and those few extra square inches to support quite a few
> > extra
> > pounds will probably do the trick. What was a bit strange was how
> > "slippery"
> > it was compared with Fizik. And despite being slightly heavier it felt
> > like
> > climbing (in and slightly out of the saddle) was much much easier.
> > I cant wait it to take it for longer ride and break it in. No more
> > blue Mondays!
>
> ------------
> You got past the hardest part, fitting it on the bike. As you probably
> found out there isn't much usable rail to move it back. It won't be as
> slippery as you break it in, which will take longer than you think. But
> you will learn to really appreciate the feel after that. Some say
> though it turns into an ass-hatchet in the rain, I don't know because if
> there is even the slightest weather forecast of rain, I take my rain
> bike with the plastic saddle. It might take you a 1000 miles to get it
> to start breaking in, so be patient.

Yes - fitting in on existing seatpost was rather problematic - rails
were not position the same way as ones on Fizik - mechanic at the LBS
wanted to sell me an extra carbon seatpost for $100 and I wanted to
give up on the whole idea - it was getting too expensive but somehow
he managed to put it on the original seatpost (Ritchey Comp V2).
And in the same position as Fizik. As for the rain - no sweat - it
is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
use plastic bag.

 

[Crescentius Vespasianus]

Woland99 wrote:

>
> Yes - fitting in on existing seatpost was rather problematic - rails
> were not position the same way as ones on Fizik - mechanic at the LBS
> wanted to sell me an extra carbon seatpost for $100 and I wanted to
> give up on the whole idea - it was getting too expensive but somehow
> he managed to put it on the original seatpost (Ritchey Comp V2).
> And in the same position as Fizik. As for the rain - no sweat - it
> is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
> use plastic bag.
-------------
I ended up having to get a new seatpost with quite a bit of setback on
it, to make the B-17 work.

 

[still just me]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
<[email protected]> wrote:

>no sweat - it
>is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
>riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
>use plastic bag.

My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still just
fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil (the
application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman at
Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon B
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).

If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove the
factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any treatment
you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live on
the edge.

 

[* * Chas]

"still just me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >no sweat - it
> >is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> >riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
> >use plastic bag.
>
> My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still just
> fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil (the
> application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman at
> Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon B
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).
>
> If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
> sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove the
> factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any treatment
> you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live on
> the edge.
>
>

The problem with neatsfoot oil is that most of what is sold today as
"neatsfoot oil" is a petroleum based product or contains a high amount of
petroleum product. Petroleum products can damage leather. True neatsfoot
oil in made from calves feet.

Chas.

 

[Woland99]

On Jun 19, 8:22 am, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >no sweat - it
> >is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> >riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
> >use plastic bag.
>
> My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still just
> fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil (the
> application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman at
> Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon Bhttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).
>
> If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
> sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove the
> factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any treatment
> you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live on
> the edge.

Slippery is actually OK - especially after putting a bit of Proofide
on top - it got better. Not sure about sanding - I will see if I
can sand it with my butt. As old cycling wisdom goes - you ain't
worthy calling yerself a cyclist unless you sanded your Brooks B17
down to paper-like thickness. Or something along that line.
Looking at Proofide can: Tallow, Cod oil, Vegetable oil, Paraffin
wax, Beeswax, Citronella oil. Absolutely no artificial sweetener here.

 

[still just me]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:51:32 -0700, "* * Chas"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>The problem with neatsfoot oil is that most of what is sold today as
>"neatsfoot oil" is a petroleum based product or contains a high amount of
>petroleum product. Petroleum products can damage leather. True neatsfoot
>oil in made from calves feet.
>

Could be... my can of it is about 40 years old.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<f476e6d1-7988-4b7c-a307-0aa02019031a@z16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jun 19, 8:22 am, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >no sweat - it
> > >is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> > >riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
> > >use plastic bag.
> >
> > My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still just
> > fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil (the
> > application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman at
> > Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon Bhttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).
> >
> > If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
> > sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove the
> > factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any treatment
> > you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live on
> > the edge.
>
> Slippery is actually OK - especially after putting a bit of Proofide
> on top - it got better. Not sure about sanding - I will see if I
> can sand it with my butt. As old cycling wisdom goes - you ain't
> worthy calling yerself a cyclist unless you sanded your Brooks B17
> down to paper-like thickness. Or something along that line.
> Looking at Proofide can: Tallow, Cod oil, Vegetable oil, Paraffin
> wax, Beeswax, Citronella oil. Absolutely no artificial sweetener here.

Do not sand it. Wax type treatments such as Proofide and Sno-Seal
are best. Even real neats foot oil is contraindicated.

Here is the Sno-Seal link.

<http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/sno-seal.html>

I use Sno-Seal on boots, and like it. I quote from the
site because I find it persuasive.

"Sno-Seal Original Beeswax Waterproofing protects leather
from rain, sun, snow, and salt. The beeswax formula dries
to a solid wax that "stays put" in the surface of the
leather so it lasts longer.

"Our competitors' greases, oil, and animal products are
able to migrate through the leather till they clog all
the pores. These waterproofing products fill the natural
spaces that are supposed to absorb perspiration and
insulate.

"In addition, animal fats weaken and rot leather. The
tannery worked hard to remove the fats and preserve the
leather, so it's hard to imagine why you'd put it back
on."

--
Michael Press

 

[Woland99]

On Jun 19, 10:46 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <f476e6d1-7988-4b7c-a307-0aa020190...@z16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 8:22 am, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >no sweat - it
> > > >is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> > > >riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
> > > >use plastic bag.
>
> > > My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still just
> > > fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil (the
> > > application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman at
> > > Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon Bhttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).
>
> > > If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
> > > sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove the
> > > factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any treatment
> > > you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live on
> > > the edge.
>
> > Slippery is actually OK - especially after putting a bit of Proofide
> > on top - it got better. Not sure about sanding - I will see if I
> > can sand it with my butt. As old cycling wisdom goes - you ain't
> > worthy calling yerself a cyclist unless you sanded your Brooks B17
> > down to paper-like thickness. Or something along that line.
> > Looking at Proofide can: Tallow, Cod oil, Vegetable oil, Paraffin
> > wax, Beeswax, Citronella oil. Absolutely no artificial sweetener here.
>
> Do not sand it. Wax type treatments such as Proofide and Sno-Seal
> are best. Even real neats foot oil is contraindicated.
>
> Here is the Sno-Seal link.
>
> <http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/sno-seal.html>
>
> I use Sno-Seal on boots, and like it. I quote from the
> site because I find it persuasive.
>
> "Sno-Seal Original Beeswax Waterproofing protects leather
> from rain, sun, snow, and salt. The beeswax formula dries
> to a solid wax that "stays put" in the surface of the
> leather so it lasts longer.
>
> "Our competitors' greases, oil, and animal products are
> able to migrate through the leather till they clog all
> the pores. These waterproofing products fill the natural
> spaces that are supposed to absorb perspiration and
> insulate.
>
> "In addition, animal fats weaken and rot leather. The
> tannery worked hard to remove the fats and preserve the
> leather, so it's hard to imagine why you'd put it back
> on."
>
> --
> Michael Press

Thanks - I found can of Proofide in LBS and put couple layers
on the bottom part and a layer on top. That stuff is dense and
has high viscosity - takes a bit of effort to spread but seems
to form a hard layer on top of the leather. I did not figure out
how to proofide all the nooks - there are some areas underneath
the saddle that are hard to reach with your fingers.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<cb6577aa-262f-4e12-ba4f-a8c7ec56f60a@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jun 19, 10:46 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <f476e6d1-7988-4b7c-a307-0aa020190...@z16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Jun 19, 8:22 am, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
> >
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >no sweat - it
> > > > >is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> > > > >riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or just
> > > > >use plastic bag.
> >
> > > > My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still just
> > > > fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil (the
> > > > application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman at
> > > > Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon Bhttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).
> >
> > > > If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
> > > > sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove the
> > > > factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any treatment
> > > > you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live on
> > > > the edge.
> >
> > > Slippery is actually OK - especially after putting a bit of Proofide
> > > on top - it got better. Not sure about sanding - I will see if I
> > > can sand it with my butt. As old cycling wisdom goes - you ain't
> > > worthy calling yerself a cyclist unless you sanded your Brooks B17
> > > down to paper-like thickness. Or something along that line.
> > > Looking at Proofide can: Tallow, Cod oil, Vegetable oil, Paraffin
> > > wax, Beeswax, Citronella oil. Absolutely no artificial sweetener here.
> >
> > Do not sand it. Wax type treatments such as Proofide and Sno-Seal
> > are best. Even real neats foot oil is contraindicated.
> >
> > Here is the Sno-Seal link.
> >
> > <http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/sno-seal.html>
> >
> > I use Sno-Seal on boots, and like it. I quote from the
> > site because I find it persuasive.
> >
> > "Sno-Seal Original Beeswax Waterproofing protects leather
> > from rain, sun, snow, and salt. The beeswax formula dries
> > to a solid wax that "stays put" in the surface of the
> > leather so it lasts longer.
> >
> > "Our competitors' greases, oil, and animal products are
> > able to migrate through the leather till they clog all
> > the pores. These waterproofing products fill the natural
> > spaces that are supposed to absorb perspiration and
> > insulate.
> >
> > "In addition, animal fats weaken and rot leather. The
> > tannery worked hard to remove the fats and preserve the
> > leather, so it's hard to imagine why you'd put it back
> > on."
>
> Thanks - I found can of Proofide in LBS and put couple layers
> on the bottom part and a layer on top. That stuff is dense and
> has high viscosity - takes a bit of effort to spread but seems
> to form a hard layer on top of the leather. I did not figure out
> how to proofide all the nooks - there are some areas underneath
> the saddle that are hard to reach with your fingers.

Use an old tooth brush. Put the saddle upside down under a
100 watt incandescent light bulb. That warms it just enough.
Leave it overnight. After that occasional light dabs to the
top and underside.

--
Michael Press

 

[!Jones]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:15:08 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech
Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:

> I went out and bought one -
>B17 Special

Personally, I ride a 24-yaer-old Ideal, but it's a similar saddle.
People either like 'em a lot or they dislike 'em... few are neutral.

Jones

 

[still just me]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:46:06 -0700, Michael Press <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Our competitors' greases, oil, and animal products are
>able to migrate through the leather till they clog all
>the pores. These waterproofing products fill the natural
>spaces that are supposed to absorb perspiration and
>insulate.
>
>"In addition, animal fats weaken and rot leather. The
>tannery worked hard to remove the fats and preserve the
>leather, so it's hard to imagine why you'd put it back
>on."

My favorite sanded, neatsfoot treated seat is from 1973. I'm wondering
when it's going to start this leather rot thing

 

[Booker Bense]

In article <cb6577aa-262f-4e12-ba4f-a8c7ec56f60a@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Thanks - I found can of Proofide in LBS and put couple layers
>on the bottom part and a layer on top. That stuff is dense and
>has high viscosity - takes a bit of effort to spread but seems
>to form a hard layer on top of the leather. I did not figure out
>how to proofide all the nooks - there are some areas underneath
>the saddle that are hard to reach with your fingers.

Proofide and Snow Seal are mostly bee's wax. Get them warm and
they are much easier to work with.

_ Booker C. Bense

 

[* * Chas]

"Woland99" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:cb6577aa-262f-4e12-ba4f-a8c7ec56f60a@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 19, 10:46 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <f476e6d1-7988-4b7c-a307-0aa020190...@z16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Jun 19, 8:22 am, still just me <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:24:00 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
> >
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >no sweat - it
> > > > >is dry in Austin and if it is raining it usually pours buckets so
> > > > >riding is not possible. But just in case I may get a cover or
just
> > > > >use plastic bag.
> >
> > > > My Brooks got very wet many times over many years and is still
just
> > > > fine. Some of that may be due to a healthy dose of neatsfoot oil
(the
> > > > application of which horrifies purists and the proofhide salesman
at
> > > > Brooks, but was just fine with me and with the late Sheldon
Bhttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html).
> >
> > > > If you want to reduce the slipperiness you can use some very fine
> > > > sandpaper (#400 to start, work up or down as desired) to remove
the
> > > > factory gloss. That also helps with the absorption of any
treatment
> > > > you do use. Again, it horrifies the purists, but it's OK to live
on
> > > > the edge.
> >
> > > Slippery is actually OK - especially after putting a bit of Proofide
> > > on top - it got better. Not sure about sanding - I will see if I
> > > can sand it with my butt. As old cycling wisdom goes - you ain't
> > > worthy calling yerself a cyclist unless you sanded your Brooks B17
> > > down to paper-like thickness. Or something along that line.
> > > Looking at Proofide can: Tallow, Cod oil, Vegetable oil, Paraffin
> > > wax, Beeswax, Citronella oil. Absolutely no artificial sweetener
here.
> >
> > Do not sand it. Wax type treatments such as Proofide and Sno-Seal
> > are best. Even real neats foot oil is contraindicated.
> >
> > Here is the Sno-Seal link.
> >
> > <http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/sno-seal.html>
> >
> > I use Sno-Seal on boots, and like it. I quote from the
> > site because I find it persuasive.
> >
> > "Sno-Seal Original Beeswax Waterproofing protects leather
> > from rain, sun, snow, and salt. The beeswax formula dries
> > to a solid wax that "stays put" in the surface of the
> > leather so it lasts longer.
> >
> > "Our competitors' greases, oil, and animal products are
> > able to migrate through the leather till they clog all
> > the pores. These waterproofing products fill the natural
> > spaces that are supposed to absorb perspiration and
> > insulate.
> >
> > "In addition, animal fats weaken and rot leather. The
> > tannery worked hard to remove the fats and preserve the
> > leather, so it's hard to imagine why you'd put it back
> > on."
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press
>
> Thanks - I found can of Proofide in LBS and put couple layers
> on the bottom part and a layer on top. That stuff is dense and
> has high viscosity - takes a bit of effort to spread but seems
> to form a hard layer on top of the leather. I did not figure out
> how to proofide all the nooks - there are some areas underneath
> the saddle that are hard to reach with your fingers.

I use an old tooth brush to get the Proofide into the hard to reach
places. I also hit it with lightly with hot air from a hair dryer to get
the stuff to soak into the leather better.

Chas.

 

[JCrowe]

!Jones wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:15:08 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech
> Woland99 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I went out and bought one -
>> B17 Special
>
> Personally, I ride a 24-yaer-old Ideal, but it's a similar saddle.
> People either like 'em a lot or they dislike 'em... few are neutral.
>
> Jones
>

My 28 year old Brooks saddle on one bike is starting to show its
age. This bike has been ridden every year of that time at least 1000
- 3000 miles a year. Needless to say, I got my money's worth. You are
right though about their relative popularity.....

--
Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be
maintained by violence.

~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.

~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is
also big enough to take away everything you have.

~Davy Crockett

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders...tell
them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

~Herman Goering